Thursday, October 11, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[06:56:58] <jonas’> ping
[06:57:17] <Maranda> pong
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[07:27:28] <Ge0rG> peng
[07:27:37] <jonas’> björn?
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[07:52:59] <Link Mauve> The 35c3 voucher system has started, did you get in touch with them to get some?
[07:53:44] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: this should be for SCAM team, right?
[07:54:48] <Link Mauve> Ah, maybe.
[07:56:31] <pep.> Scam or not maybe somebody can send something, so we're not too late
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[12:21:32] <jonas’> @SCAM: 35c3-tickets@cccv.de
[12:21:35] <jonas’> @SCAM: mailto:35c3-tickets@cccv.de
[12:21:48] <jonas’> Ge0rG, Link Mauve, ^ I don’t konw if SCAM has a MUC or something. forward it to them.
[12:22:01] <MattJ> scam@muc.xmpp.org
[12:22:09] <jonas’> (something something too many tabs something)
[12:22:15] <MattJ> :)
[12:22:25] <jonas’> hah, relevant backlog in that muc
[12:22:33] <MattJ> Exactly
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[13:39:38] <nyco> yep ;-)
[13:39:44] <nyco> who chairs? who minutes?
[13:40:25] <guusdk> Go for it
[13:40:27] <MattJ> I'll chair if someone else can minute
[13:40:37] <guusdk> I'll do afterwards
[13:40:44] <nyco> thx
[13:40:53] <MattJ> Ok
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[13:41:07] <MattJ> 0) Role call: nyco, guusdk and myself
[13:41:23] <MattJ> 1) Topics for agenda
[13:41:31] <MattJ> Anyone have anything not on Trello?
[13:41:39] <guusdk> No
[13:41:39] <nyco> nope
[13:41:54] <MattJ> 2) Decisions: board priorities
[13:42:00] <nyco> last time we talked prios, didn't have time to talk executive
[13:42:05] <nyco> oh ok
[13:42:10] <MattJ> Didn't we decide on this already?
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[13:42:42] <nyco> according to the minutes, we did not decide (we were not meant to)
[13:42:54] <MattJ> Gah, browser with Trello and minutes just crashed, one moment
[13:43:01] <nyco> we agreed we would not take decisions for the next board
[13:44:05] <MattJ> Right
[13:44:31] <MattJ> So are we done with this for now?
[13:44:40] <nyco> that's my feeling
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[13:45:16] <guusdk> Nyco, didn't you offer to draft a nice recommendation for next board?
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[13:49:18] <nyco> thx
[13:49:29] <MattJ> Moving on...
[13:49:39] <guusdk> I'm not trying to make nyco donor, btw. Though he volunteered
[13:50:02] <guusdk> Donor/do it
[13:50:06] <nyco> that's fine, I'm happy to contribute this
[13:50:47] <MattJ> 3) Commitment for the week (ha!) ahead: search for new ED
[13:50:59] <nyco> (which week? ;-) )
[13:51:01] <MattJ> I don't think we should be expecting Martin back before the end of the term
[13:51:22] <MattJ> and this was assigned to him
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[13:51:43] <MattJ> Nope, we already have one
[13:56:36] <nyco> there is a subject with Peter on sponsoring as well, right?
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[13:57:20] <nyco> modifying the bylaws need some work I guess, like validate the changes by a lawyer?
[13:57:35] <MattJ> guusdk, added to Trello
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[13:58:00] <guusdk> Tx
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[13:58:33] <MattJ> 5) Discussion: Change board member tenure
[13:58:43] <MattJ> Did we come to some decision on this?
[13:58:49] <guusdk> I don't believe that there's consensus to change anything here.
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[13:59:02] <guusdk> Leave as-is?
[13:59:10] <MattJ> I'll archive the card then
[13:59:17] <nyco> agree, I feel we don't want to change
[13:59:51] <MattJ> Ok, that's cleared up a few things in Trello
[14:00:28] <MattJ> We're left with our two long-running themes of the year (fundraising/financing, and ED replacement), and one new action item (call with Peter)
[14:00:49] <MattJ> 6) AOB?
[14:00:53] <MattJ> I have none
[14:01:00] <guusdk> Board/council elections process was started by the Secretary
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[14:01:24] <MattJ> Oh, wasn't aware of that
[14:01:25] <guusdk> Please find candidates and/or apply on wiki
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[14:01:36] <MattJ> Shall do
[14:01:50] <nyco> https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2018
[14:01:51] <guusdk> See mail sent on October 1
[14:02:26] <nyco> @SCAM can/should we tweet that?
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[14:03:41] <MattJ> Doesn't really fall under SCAM, does it? There's nothing meetup-related
[14:03:45] <guusdk> nyco: good idea
[14:04:00] <guusdk> But it should be tweeted nonetheless
[14:04:03] <MattJ> +1
[14:04:05] <nyco> oh commteam
[14:04:17] <MattJ> Yeah, sorry, I realised it was probably just a typo after I wrote my message :)
[14:04:29] <nyco> we also should tweet every call for membership
[14:04:35] <MattJ> Ok, I think we're done then
[14:04:43] <MattJ> 7) Next meeting
[14:04:45] <MattJ> +1 week
[14:04:45] <guusdk> +1
[14:04:47] <nyco> +1
[14:04:50] <guusdk> Ok
[14:04:55] <MattJ> 8) The End
[14:04:57] <MattJ> Thanks all
[14:04:58] <nyco> thx all!
[14:05:04] <guusdk> Thanks
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[14:06:59] <MattJ> Aha
[14:07:10] <MattJ> I think I found what's up with xmpp.org
[14:07:19] <MattJ> Well, the XMPP service anyway
[14:07:58] <MattJ> Currently holds 1020 open fds, limit is 1024
[14:08:13] <Zash> It uses select???
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[14:08:28] <Ge0rG> Le Sigh.
[14:08:31] <MattJ> ulimit
[14:08:40] <Zash> Oh
[14:08:51] <Ge0rG> https://issues.prosody.im/536
[14:09:22] <MattJ> Ah, fun
[14:09:43] <MattJ> The majority of open fds are UDP sockets "connected" to the DNS server
[14:09:57] <MattJ> which was down earlier in the week, so I guess that constitutes a bug
[14:10:10] <Zash> https://issues.prosody.im/1170 ?
[14:10:11] <MattJ> Except this server is many versions out of date, so probably just needs an upgrade
[14:11:31] <Ge0rG> I remember having a server silently running out of FDs. It sucks.
[14:11:57] <MattJ> Oh no, it's not out of date, apparently I upgraded it at some point
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[14:12:28] <MattJ> Zash, so I guess you can take NeedInfo off that issue :)
[14:13:05] <Zash> Is this even 0.10.x?
[14:13:12] <MattJ> 0.10.2
[14:16:51] <Zash> MattJ: That change isn't in 0.10.2
[14:16:55] <MattJ> Ah
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[14:23:02] <MattJ> Ok, service should be restored for now
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[14:30:34] <Ge0rG> did you throw in some more sockets?
[14:32:40] <jonas’> prosody should just re-exec itself when it runs out of sockets /s
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[14:36:12] <Ge0rG> jonas’: message to all admins and reexec
[14:37:10] <Zash> Why
[14:37:24] <Zash> And how
[14:37:25] <Ge0rG> Zash: it will close all sockets.
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[14:38:04] <flow> Ge0rG why not simply monitor the open fd externally and send an (XMPP) message?
[14:38:13] <flow> *open fd count
[14:38:19] <jonas’> Ge0rG, let me tell you about my botnet opening 65535 TCP connections to your prosody instance :>
[14:38:41] <jonas’> flow, "simply" and "monitor" and "prosody" in a single statement is daring
[14:39:31] <Zash> "fd count" is painful as well
[14:39:32] <flow> jonas’, I think it could be done prosody agnostic, i.e. not specific to a particular process binary, you just monitor if your process is running against the open fd limit
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[14:40:18] <jonas’> flow, picking the right process to monitor isn’t easy either
[14:40:25] <Ge0rG> flow: feel free to PR against https://issues.prosody.im/536
[14:46:09] <MattJ> Ge0rG, PR for an external script?
[14:47:12] <MattJ> I'll repeat what's already said in the issue: there is no API for asking the OS how many fds you have open
[14:47:33] <MattJ> So file an issue for Linux
[14:48:39] <Zash> I haven't even seen anyhing in the epoll API that tells you how many FDs you are watching
[14:49:03] <Zash> Easy enough with select() since you have to manually add them for every call
[14:49:10] <jonas’> open /proc/self/fd, count number of entries?
[14:49:26] <Zash> But then you're limited to sizeof(fd_set) * (bits per byte)
[14:49:44] <Zash> jonas’: That's mentioned in a comment in the issue already
[14:49:48] <jonas’> sorry :)
[14:50:04] <Ge0rG> MattJ: the external script could be part of the OS-level packaging and tooling
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[14:50:17] <Zash> File an issue for systemd
[14:51:10] <MattJ> Talking about epoll/etc. is besides the point... fds != connections
[14:51:28] <Ge0rG> isn't this all about fds only?
[14:52:03] <MattJ> You suggested select/epoll in comment 6
[14:52:20] <MattJ> and I pointed out what I just pointed out (fds != connections) in comment 7
[14:52:33] <Zash> All this has happened before, and all of it will happen again, and again, and again.
[14:52:42] <Zash> What jonas’ said is comment 8
[14:52:50] <MattJ> The only way to correctly implement this is an O(N) loop, run $frequently
[14:53:28] <Zash> Can you get the size of a directory in O(less than n) in Linux?
[14:53:43] <Zash> Or does that just move the O(n) elsewhere?
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[14:54:04] <Ge0rG> MattJ: you are the one bringing up connections all the time.
[14:54:10] <Zash> Or are /proc directory entries too magical for that
[14:55:38] <Ge0rG> Zash: opening /proc/self/fd requires... a free fd
[14:55:46] <Zash> Dun dun DUN
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[14:56:53] <Ge0rG> I wouldn't be surpsised if sending a message to admins would also require a free fd.
[14:57:10] <Ge0rG> or multiple ones.
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[14:57:30] <Zash> Might, yes
[14:59:00] <Ge0rG> Can't you just detect EMFILE from any fd you open and trigger an error condition on that?
[14:59:11] <Ge0rG> BTW, this MUC is exceptionally laggy today.
[14:59:17] <Zash> Storage might need a FD to write to eg offline storage or archive
[14:59:18] <Zash> Don't we already?
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[14:59:22] <Zash> Wow, that is laggy
[15:00:20] <Ge0rG> MattJ: did prosody run out of descriptors again?
[15:00:25] <Zash> But not now?
[15:00:25] <Zash> .
[15:00:25] <Zash> Apparently it is
[15:00:25] <Zash> 17:00 now
[15:00:38] <Zash> 25s lag
[15:00:57] <Zash> Catching up with something?
[15:01:05] <Ge0rG> xsf@muc.xmpp.org did not respond to ping after 10s: timeout
[15:01:11] *Ge0rG shakes fist at poezio
[15:01:14] <jonas’> ping
[15:01:15] <jonas’> wfm
[15:01:18] <jonas’> very fast from here
[15:01:31] <Zash> .
[15:01:50] <Ge0rG> sometimes it's fast, and sometimes it lags. swap disk thrashing?
[15:02:03] <waqas> .
[15:02:32] <jonas’> fun :)
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[15:03:02] <Zash> .
[15:03:21] <Ge0rG> .
.
,
-
[15:03:27] <jonas’> fertig ist das mondgesich,.
[15:03:29] <jonas’> fertig ist das mondgesicht
[15:03:41] <Zash> u wut m8?
[15:03:48] <MattJ> Everything seems fine to me
[15:03:58] <jonas’> maybe bad internet weather?
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[15:05:31] <Ge0rG> do I need to add xmpp.org to my smokeping?
[15:05:40] <jonas’> do it
[15:05:46] <Ge0rG> all is looking well on the icmp front
[15:05:56] <Ge0rG> it must be a host latency issue.
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[15:07:18] <MattJ> Ah, postgres 100% CPU, user: xmppoke
[15:07:23] <jonas’> nice
[15:07:41] <MattJ> .
[15:08:25] <MattJ> .
[15:08:29] <waqas> .
[15:08:30] <Zash> Is xmpp.net still broken?
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[15:09:42] <Zash> Looks liket here are recent results that worked
[15:09:50] <Zash> Looks like there are recent results that worked
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[15:13:02] <MattJ> `docker nice`...
[15:13:35] <jonas’> nice
[15:13:40] <jonas’> (pun intended)
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[15:14:32] <MattJ> It doesn't exist
[15:14:37] <MattJ> I wish it did
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[15:39:56] <SamWhited> jonas’: re my question earlier, can you expand on your decision to move 0392 to HSLuv? You claim it has widespread library support, but the ones I've found are *really* terrible, and I think there was some value in using a standard color space. HSLuv may look nice, but it has no real applications in insdustry and isn't likely to be widely supported, so I'm skeptical of that claim
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[15:40:28] <SamWhited> I'm not specifically for YCbCr to be clear, I don't care what colorspace is used it just seems like there's value in using a standardized one
[15:40:36] <SamWhited> not just some random persons personal project that's not used anywhere
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[15:40:49] <jonas’> right
[15:41:05] <jonas’> so, what we did on top of YCbCr is essentially what HSLuv does on top of CIE XYZ, but worse
[15:41:21] <jonas’> so it’s a home-brew solution either way
[15:41:27] <jonas’> except that HSLuv gives better results
[15:41:34] <SamWhited> I didn't remember you making changes to YCbCr, what did you do on top of it?
[15:41:45] <jonas’> the algorithm to determine CbCr based on the angle
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[15:41:57] <jonas’> or rather, based on the 16 bit input extracted from the hash
[15:42:19] <SamWhited> That's just picking a color out of the space, that seems fine; you'll have to do that no matter what space you use
[15:42:29] <jonas’> that’s what HSLuv does on top of XYZ anyways
[15:42:39] <jonas’> but the results are much more uniform than what we had with YCbCr
[15:42:56] <SamWhited> Hmm, I didn't understand that; it's an entirely new colorspace as far as I could tell, maybe I need to go reread their definition of it
[15:43:24] <jonas’> http://www.hsluv.org/math/
[15:43:37] <jonas’> oh, it works on top of CIE LUV LCh, not XYZ
[15:43:41] <jonas’> not sure where I got the XYZ from
[15:44:04] <jonas’> it is really pretty much exactly what we did with YCbCr: use Hue as angle, cast a ray to the border, take value
[15:44:07] <SamWhited> Yah, that's not the same thing at all; it's a brand new color space, they've just defined it as a transformation of CIE LUV
[15:44:37] <SamWhited> You couldn't just pick a color from an eisting CIE LUV implementation, as far as I can tell from this
[15:44:42] <jonas’> so, old XEP-0392 was just an entirely new color space which can be defined as a transformation of YCbCr; that’s wordplay
[15:45:03] <SamWhited> I don't think that's true, these are two different things
[15:45:40] <SamWhited> If I had the set of all possible colors in YCbCr I could do you algorithm and get colors in that set (I think?)
[15:45:56] <jonas’> no
[15:46:07] <SamWhited> If I have the set of all colors in CIE LUV I can't do 0392 with that, I have to implement HSLuv first
[15:46:26] <jonas’> no wait, I don’t understand what you’re saying
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[15:47:25] <SamWhited> I'm saying that if I have a CIELuv implementation I can't implement 0392 with that; it will be different colors than if I start from an HSLuv implementation.
[15:47:47] <SamWhited> And HSLuv isn't actually a standard that anyone recognizes, and contrary to your claim doesn't have very good library support as far as I can tell
[15:48:36] <jonas’> SamWhited, I didn’t review all the implementations in http://www.hsluv.org/implementations/ but at least the Python and Java ones seem to be fine
[15:48:41] <jonas’> the C one, too
[15:48:52] <SamWhited> I reviewed a few; they were mostly terrible, unidiomatic, and unmaintained.
[15:48:59] <SamWhited> They're examples, but not actually something I'd use in prod
[15:49:23] <SamWhited> And either way it seems like there's valule in using a widely recognized standard and not something where the only support will come from a single party
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[15:49:46] <jonas’> maybe
[15:50:06] <jonas’> however, the results with YCbCr are not as nice as HSLuv
[15:50:09] <SamWhited> Maybe if you want those specific colors it would make sense to define 0392 in terms of CIE Luv which I think is widely standardsized and just include the math for going to HSLuv (and you could mention that if you have an HSLuv implementation you can just start from their)?
[15:50:33] <jonas’> that would make 0392 unnecessarily long
[15:50:38] <SamWhited> They look about he same to me, if anything I've gotten more gross mustard yellow since Conversations updated, but that's probably just bad luck
[15:50:56] <jonas’> the difference is in the uniformity of brightness
[15:50:58] <jonas’> lemme grab you a screenshot
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[15:51:31] <SamWhited> Yah, the brightness uniformity is nice, but it doesn't outweigh the downside in my opinion; there has to be a standardized colorspace or subset of one that has uniform brightness?
[15:51:48] <jonas’> not really, unless you do exactly what HSLuv does
[15:51:51] <jonas’> maybe on top of something else
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[15:52:15] <jonas’> but you end up using one of the photometric ones (XYZ, LUV, you name it), and do a solve() to determine the right color for a given hue and saturation
[15:52:58] <SamWhited> I dunno, personally if the only benefit is more uniform brightness that's nice, but doesn't make it worth using a colorspace that has a total of one implementation in a few languages and isn't actually used anywhere and that no one has any experience with
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[15:53:45] <SamWhited> It doesn't seem like it would be that much more to describe how to construct this colorspace though, but maybe I'm being over optimistic, I need to look over the math and actually try to understand it
[15:53:52] <SamWhited> Since I'd have to do that to implement it anyways
[15:54:26] <jonas’> the golang implementation doesn’t look too bad to me, but I don’t know lots of go either way
[15:54:31] <SamWhited> It's bad
[15:54:53] <SamWhited> That one in particular is more or less unusably bad; there are standard interfaces for doing colors in go which it doesn't implement.
[15:55:06] <SamWhited> Also the code just isn't idiomatic
[15:55:29] <SamWhited> And is impossible to follow or reason about because of the way they've defined it as transformations through multiple other colorspaces
[15:55:33] <jonas’> color spaces are all a mess, unless you go to the photometric ones
[15:56:01] <jonas’> and converting the good photometric ones (CIE LUV in this case) to one you can use to display something on a computer is where you get the mess you save by doing stuff in photometrics
[15:56:25] <SamWhited> I get that that's a pain, but it still seems worth using an actual standard
[15:56:42] <SamWhited> Even if it doesn't look as great; YCbCr seemed fine to me personally
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[16:00:49] <SamWhited> Actually, specifically looking at Go right now (I'd like to implement this in Go and Rust) I can't find a CIELUV implementation either, which suprises me
[16:01:04] <jonas’> I’m not surprised.
[16:01:56] <SamWhited> I guess that one's not all that widely used, even if it has been standardized for a while
[16:02:12] <SamWhited> So maybe starting from that wouldn't help, I haven't looked at other languages yet though
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