Sunday, October 14, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[08:01:43] <flow> dedekin, that is not (yet) a statistic evaluation, just a single shot. I'm also not sure how meaningful the numbers regarding compression are, as I wonder if compression achieves very good results in the initial connection phase as the user's XMPP domain occurs very often
[08:10:15] <jonas’> flow, does this take into account the requirement to flush the compression state on each stanza?
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[08:31:23] <flow> jonas’, not on each stanza but on each channel change, and the with compression above is using sync flush after each stanza
[08:31:31] <flow> with compression full flush and with tls
recv: 9827
send: 6360
recv-aft-filter: 21594
send-bef-filter: 5677
[08:31:47] <flow> those are the numbers with full flush after a channel change
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[08:39:28] <jonas’> sure, channel change is harder to implement, so I’d like to see the "worst case" numbers here :)
[08:39:32] <jonas’> but that is still pretty good
[08:42:10] <Ge0rG> Those are important inputs for the deprecation discussion in Council
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[08:43:51] <jonas’> flow, which server implementation is this against?
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[08:47:03] <flow> ejabberd 17.03
[08:47:13] <jonas’> aged, but neat
[08:47:23] <flow> jonas’, ^. But I'm curious, do you expect a behavior change depending on the server?
[08:47:30] <flow> zlib being zlib for ages
[08:47:42] <jonas’> flow, I was just curious, because prosody e.g. does not implement per-stanza/channel flush
[08:48:09] <flow> jonas’, well I doubt that ejabberd does this. so the full flush is probably only performed by smack
[08:48:16] <jonas’> oh
[08:48:21] <jonas’> that makes the recv number entirely irrelevant
[08:48:28] <jonas’> (which is what I was looking at)
[08:48:37] <jonas’> and the send number isn’t that impressive anymore
[08:48:45] <flow> that is why I champion that we make that feature negotiable in xep138
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[08:48:53] <jonas’> which feature?
[08:49:14] <flow> full flush on stanza/channel change
[08:49:22] <jonas’> I am massively against making that negotiable
[08:49:30] <jonas’> it’s a requirement to implement compression securely
[08:49:43] <flow> well only if you use tls
[08:49:57] <flow> there are use case for xmpp w/o tls
[08:50:14] <jonas’> are there still?
[08:50:34] <flow> also it will likely be negoiatable in the end anyways
[08:50:55] <flow> because the current "zlib" mechanism does not specify this behavior
[08:51:01] <jonas’> indeed
[08:51:10] <jonas’> it might be indirectly negotiable by a namespace bump
[08:51:30] <flow> so you either add a flag to xep138 or the specific compression mechanism xep, or register a new mech like zlib-full-flush
[08:51:53] <jonas’> I think all mechanisms need that type of thing, so bumping the NS of xep138 entirely to require this seems more reasonable to me
[08:52:34] <flow> I wouldn't require it, just as there are use cases for xmpp w/o tls, there are use cases for compression using only sync flush
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[08:56:22] <Ge0rG> I'm not sure there are still use cases without TLS in 2018
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[15:39:47] <rainslide> http://neverssl.com
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[16:11:29] <pep.> TIL https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/calendaring.html; Any idea what happened to it?
[16:11:51] <pep.> Apparently https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/council/2009-April/002540.html says:
Consensus to delay until after discussion with calendaring people -
Dave to instigate.
[16:15:57] <Zash> https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/council/2009-April/002546.html has some followup
[16:18:51] <pep.> It'd be great to have all this feedback somewhere easily discoverable
[16:20:36] <Zash> pep.: Shush, you'll wake up the people who want to switch to discourse.
[16:20:36] <moparisthebest> at this point, it's far too late for that, caldav won
[16:20:46] <moparisthebest> xmpp doesn't have to do *everything*
[16:21:49] <pep.> Zash, I'm not sure discourse is really better
[16:22:19] <Zash> moparisthebest: I think you'll find that Google Calendar won. Even I haven't ever used CalDAV.
[16:22:35] <moparisthebest> doesn't google calendar talk caldav?
[16:22:36] <pep.> I do use CalDAV fwiw
[16:23:13] <Zash> Not that I've been in large enough organizations to need a dedicated calendaring system on that scale
[16:23:46] <moparisthebest> I've used nextcloud on server and davdroid on phones since 2013 when I abandoned google
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[16:31:19] <Zash> pep.: Seen IETFs thing? https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?q=draft-ietf-kitten-pkinit-alg-agility
[16:32:34] <pep.> What are you trying to highlight? Is that related to Calendaring, or discourse, or?
[16:32:52] <Zash> pep.: Email archive/search thing
[16:33:23] <pep.> I see. Well it's not just about emails, we have lots of different channels
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[16:33:37] <pep.> email, github, XEPs, XMPP, ???
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[16:34:39] <Zash> github is not supposed to have discussion
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[16:35:17] <pep.> Maybe not discussion, but changes
[16:36:03] <pep.> I think ideally I'd like to have that displayed somewhere alongside the XEP on xmpp.org
[16:36:16] <Zash> I was more thinking of the why/why-not of the changes
[16:36:37] <Zash> I have a vauge memory of someone working on something like that
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[16:56:43] <pep.> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0099.html anybody ever used this?
[16:56:54] <pep.> CRUD over Iqs
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[17:00:58] <pep.> Or this, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0101.html, I wonder how much overlaps with 0070
[17:04:01] <pep.> It seems to be the other way around? Instead of having the http server ping the xmpp server (that will ping your xmpp client), you go get a token from your xmpp client, that you then give to the website?
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[17:14:46] <flow> > Ge0rG> Those are important inputs for the deprecation discussion in Council
[17:15:11] <flow> I doubt that those provide a solid foundation for such a discussion
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[18:22:23] <pep.> SamWhited, there are 70 occurences of "meta-data" in the whole repo, I can sed them all :-°
[18:22:45] <pep.> it'/its was a bit more work
[18:23:01] <SamWhited> pep. even better! I just noticed those two and figured we might as well keep future diffs small since you were already editing those lines anyways, but might as well grab all of them I guess :)
[18:23:39] <SamWhited> Good job on the its/it's
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[18:24:53] <pep.> I haven't touched inbox/ btw, not sure how that works in there, also not sure if XEPs I would have been edited are already accepted or not
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[18:28:24] <pep.> err, I missed one
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[19:16:41] <jonas’> muclumbus/jabber muc search now lives at https://search.jabber.network/ :-)
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[19:39:31] <pep.> SamWhited, that sed was a bad idea..
[19:39:41] <pep.> "meta-data" is used in normative parts as well :(
[19:40:23] <SamWhited> ah, too bad. I wouldn't worry about it then; might as well just fix the two that were in lines you were touching anyways and then if we want to dig through later and find the rest we can
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[23:07:29] *** lovetox has left the room
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[23:20:59] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[23:30:37] *** js shows as "away" and his status message is "Abwesend"
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[23:59:27] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Norfolk, VA"