Monday, October 15, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[01:41:31] <moparisthebest> jonas’: unless/until Cisco takes it away haha
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[07:25:58] <jonas’> anyone have a good suggestion how to validate that a listing of a service in disco#items is actually intended by the listed service?
I’m asking in the context of muclumbus/search: it is easy for an adversary to list a service in their disco#items which is accessible via s2s, but which doesn’t want to be listed. For example, if someone wanted to host a "hidden" IRC gateway and someone else noted that, someone else could add it to their disco#items and thus un-hide it.
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[08:50:57] <flow> jonas’, you could possibly filter out items with an xmpp address not being a "child" address of the requested entity
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[08:54:41] <jonas’> flow, how would one determine that?
[08:54:50] <jonas’> DNS-based? :/
[08:56:50] <flow> xmpp address based?
[08:57:10] <flow> and this means domainpart based
[08:57:18] <flow> but maybe I misunderstand the question
[08:57:36] <flow> and, yes, this becomes likely infeasiable if the domainpart is an IP address
[08:58:04] <flow> but if you example.org announce muc.foo.org, then I'd filter it
[09:00:04] <jonas’> right, so DNS based
[09:00:31] <jonas’> it should be zone based though, and that’s tricky to do
[09:00:39] <jonas’> and many not even be generally correct.
[09:00:41] <jonas’> *sigh*
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[09:06:34] <flow> zone based?
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[09:07:14] <jonas’> you need to take into account authority breaks in DNS, i.e. delegations
[09:07:21] <flow> jonas’, I'm curious, has this turned out to be a practical problem? Did someone complain?
[09:07:27] <jonas’> co.uk. should not be allowed to advertise stuff for fnord.co.uk ;-)
[09:07:38] <jonas’> no, nobody complained yet, but I’d like to play it safe with resources like IRC gateways
[09:07:42] <jonas’> which are easy to abuse
[09:07:48] <jonas’> or may be easy to abuse
[09:07:49] <jonas’> or something
[09:08:03] <jonas’> pep. pre-emptively complained when I threw the idea of listing IRC gateways around in some MUC
[09:08:15] <flow> jonas’, I'm not sure about this, isn't the parent domain is always able to redirect your users?
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[09:09:21] <jonas’> flow, with an attack on DNS, yes.
[09:09:25] <jonas’> with an attack on DNS, you can do a lot of things
[09:09:27] <flow> jonas’, no
[09:09:34] <flow> just because it's your parent domain
[09:09:52] <flow> you have to trust it anyways
[09:09:55] <jonas’> I’d count "replace NS records with something I don’t intend them to be" as an attack :)
[09:10:13] <jonas’> even if they have the power to do so by design
[09:10:40] <flow> so you trust them to not do that, but you don't trust them to announce your services?
[09:11:00] <flow> bbl, SIGFOOD
[09:11:01] <jonas’> I think my preferred way would be to require the child-components disco#items to also include the parent-service, but that’s probably infeasible.
[09:11:03] <jonas’> gl
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[09:26:31] <pep.> jonas’, really I shouldn't have to wait that you start listing them to filter traffic if I don't want people to use it, but you're the force pushing me to atm :P
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[09:26:41] <pep.> I know my gateway is not used by anybody I don't want to, for the moment
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[09:49:08] <flow> pep., if you don't want your gateway to be used by other entities on the network it surely provides an options to restrict its usage to local users only?
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[09:50:10] <pep.> flow, I want _some_ s2s users to be able to use it, so mod_firewall, plus additional tricks for disco#items maybe
[09:50:43] <flow> pep., allright, so whiteliste the entities that are allowed to use it. Doesn't that solve the problem?
[09:51:05] <pep.> probably, I just need to do it. I didn't need to until now
[09:51:13] <flow> (And I know that whitelisting can be tricky, depending on the used software. But hiding isn't a solution either)
[09:51:46] <flow> pep., I'd argue that you needed to do it before too
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[09:52:02] <pep.> Well I've been somewhat monitoring access to that and it's not being abused
[09:52:28] <pep.> But yeah I agree
[09:52:29] <flow> pep., that could change now, especially since you mentioned publicly that you run an open gateway :-P
[09:52:43] <flow> I think it is askin to running an open mail relay
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[09:52:49] <pep.> I know
[09:52:51] <flow> *akin
[09:53:24] <pep.> I don't especially agree with the open mail relay thing
[09:53:33] <pep.> It's not like I was running an open j2j gateway
[09:54:44] <pep.> You could want to run an open IRC gateway, and some services do already
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[10:00:05] <pep.> (And eventually I may open that gateway as well)
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[10:32:44] <jonas’> pep., I have a set of mod_firewall rules which do that (allow all local users + s2s whitelist)
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[10:33:00] <pep.> jonas’, yeah, working on it
[10:33:54] <jonas’> pep.,
%LIST whitelist: file:/etc/prosody/fw/data/biboumi-whitelist.txt
%ZONE biboumi: irc.zombofant.net

::deliver
ENTERING: biboumi
ENTERING: $local
NOT CHECK LIST: whitelist contains $<@from|bare>
LOG=[debug] dropping inbound message to biboumi from $<@from|bare>
BOUNCE=forbidden (You are not allowed to access this host.)

::deliver_remote
LEAVING: biboumi
NOT TYPE: error
NOT CHECK LIST: whitelist contains $<@to|bare>
LOG=[debug] dropping outbound message from biboumi to $<@to|bare>
BOUNCE=forbidden (The destination is not authorized to access this host.)
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[13:30:16] *** rion shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[15:04:03] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Norfolk, VA"
[15:04:30] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[15:07:23] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
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[15:35:56] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[16:07:31] *** rion shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[16:19:13] *** Andrew Nenakhov shows as "online"
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[16:24:22] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[16:42:07] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[16:47:02] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
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[17:02:11] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[17:13:15] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[17:17:34] *** alexde shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:18:33] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Non disponibile per inattività dopo più di 15 minuti)"
[17:18:34] *** Maranda shows as "online"
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[17:22:16] <jonas’> hm, maybe it would make sense to require publicly listed gateways to publish contact information.
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[17:53:19] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is " (Assente per inattività dopo più di 5 minuti)"
[17:53:19] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
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[18:16:55] *** lnj shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
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[18:30:33] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:30:56] *** blabla shows as "online"
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[18:34:11] *** lnj shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
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[18:40:33] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:40:49] <jonas’> hrm, so there’s no way to detect MIXness of a group chat service from the identity alone?
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[19:00:06] *** alexde shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:03:02] <flow> jonas’, I think this is by design (but could be wrong)
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[19:21:51] <Ge0rG> > hm, maybe it would make sense to require publicly listed gateways to publish contact information.
jonas’: Contact Addresses would fit, but it must be in a server info dataform
[19:22:19] <jonas’> Ge0rG, I’m confused
[19:22:26] <jonas’> that’s exactly what I was talking about?
[19:22:38] <jonas’> but you make it sound like it would be a problem
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[19:26:16] <Ge0rG> I'm not a disco specialist, do components come with a http://jabber.org/network/serverinfo record by default?
[19:26:38] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[19:26:41] <jonas’> what is that?
[19:26:54] <Zash> xep 157 ?
[19:26:56] <jonas’> ah, that
[19:26:57] <jonas’> right
[19:27:01] <jonas’> Ge0rG, probably not, but they should
[19:27:03] <Ge0rG> How many data forms can you fit into one query result?
[19:27:09] <Zash> Ge0rG: unbounded
[19:27:20] <jonas’> Ge0rG, given that conference.jabber.org returns ALL the rooms in a single disco#items, I think we’re good.
[19:27:37] <jonas’> (and I think you can see when muclumbus queries conference.jabber.org in the traffic graphs because it creates a fun spike)
[19:27:45] <Ge0rG> Zash: speaking of real life implementations.
[19:27:47] <jonas’> (and then it discards the result due to malformed JIDs *shrug*)
[19:27:48] <Zash> this kills the terminal
[19:28:17] <Zash> Ge0rG: You can have more than one dataform, like you can have more than one identity and more than one feature
[19:28:34] *** peter shows as "online"
[19:28:36] <Zash> I think I've seen at most two forms
[19:29:00] <Zash> ... maybe I did that myself tho, not sure
[19:29:05] <Ge0rG> Zash: I've had a look into how poezio processes such a response. I vaguely kept my sanity.
[19:29:28] <jonas’> Ge0rG, https://lab.louiz.org/louiz/biboumi/issues/3388 ;-)
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[19:30:00] <Ge0rG> jonas’: 👍
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[19:33:04] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Norfolk, VA"
[19:34:24] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Norfolk, VA"
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[19:34:39] <Zash> jonas’: I was about to open an issue in biboumi for 157 but was distracted and now someone already did it
[19:34:48] <jonas’> "someone" :)
[19:35:23] <Zash> SOMEONE
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[19:47:01] <Zash> Hm, do MUCs commonly have 157?
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[19:47:34] <Ge0rG> Zash: I can't imagine. Should they?
[19:47:46] <Zash> Why not?
[19:47:55] <jonas’> Ge0rG, a contact for an admin when you’re facing an attack in one of your room seems useful
[19:48:15] <Maranda> They could..
[19:48:53] <Maranda> I honestly never put contact info on components
[19:49:07] <Ge0rG> jonas’: on the MUC domain? Sure, would be good
[19:49:45] *** alexde shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:50:06] <Maranda> (as long as you dont service the muc alone)
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[19:50:56] <Maranda> (i suppose ppl will look at the upper level domain info)
[19:51:25] <jonas’> that’s not a good thing to do automatedly though
[19:51:33] <pep.> I have that server_contact loaded on every single vhost/component fwiw
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[20:01:22] <Maranda> I have it integrated in mod_disco but not every component will use it so (also external components wont at all) it can be tricky for those anyways
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