XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2018-10-19


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  196. pep. > -- XHTML-IM probably I laughed
  197. pep. Come on conversations, let me copy the whole message
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  199. Maranda pats pep. consolingly.
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  578. Yagiza Hello!
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  583. Yagiza How do you feel about writing a XEP for file transfer via UDP?
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  600. SamWhited Why UDP?
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  617. Zash Isn't there a Jingle UDP transport already?
  618. Zash Might be meant for real time media I guess
  619. Zash TFTP over XMPP?
  620. Link Mauve I’ve already used it for a video game.
  621. Link Mauve But it can lose or reorder packets, you’d need an additional protocol on top of it to make it behave like TCP.
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  623. Link Mauve At which point, why don’t you use TCP instead?
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  632. flow Yagiza, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0176.html ?
  633. Yagiza flow, yes
  634. Yagiza flow, right now it can't be used for file transfer. But we can write a XEP for it.
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  639. flow Yagiza, why can't it be used for file transfer?
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  642. Yagiza flow, because we need a way to provide reliability when using UDP.
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  644. Zash SCTP over DTLS over UDP?
  645. Zash Like ... WebRTC?
  646. SamWhited Yagiza: what use case do you ahve for using UDP with some application level reliability stuff that you couldn't just use TCP for?
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  648. fippo zash: old fashioned, quic is the next big thing ther
  649. fippo xep-0343 provides a mapping of the sdp stuff to jingle
  650. Yagiza SamWhited, when entities are behind NAT (common case) the need a relay to use TCP. Using a relay make them depend on the realy. UDP could be used directly without a relay.
  651. Zash Why isn't there a XEP for bittorrent?
  652. Zash Yagiza: DUP hole punching stuff?
  653. fippo yagiza: that is true only ~70% of the time.
  654. Zash Didn't that need an outside 3rd party anyway?
  655. Link Mauve Zash, you know I’ve wanted to write one? :D
  656. Yagiza Zash, there is no problem in finding a public STUN server over internet. There are hundreds of them. But it's a real problem to find TURN or even SOCKS5 server.
  657. fippo because those things are expensive.
  658. Zash Don't a lot of XMPP servers provide a XEP-0065 SOCKS5 proxy for this?
  659. Yagiza Zash, there are not so many people, who want to run a server, which channels are used by unknown people.
  660. Zash Yagiza: [citation needed]
  661. Yagiza Zash, yes. Nowadays it's hard to find a public working XEP-0065 server.
  662. Zash Only because everyone's using HTTP upload instead
  663. fippo because xep-65 proxies are expensive to run too?
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  666. Zash Link Mauve: Do it. I think I've even got a mod_bittorrent tracker somewhere.
  667. Link Mauve Zash, but as a XEP or as a BEP, or both?
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  669. Zash :D
  670. Yagiza fippo, yes. Unlike a STUN server.
  671. Maranda Yagiza: "public"?
  672. Yagiza Maranda, yes.
  673. Maranda has proxy65 runnin' on his service 🤔
  674. Yagiza Maranda, most of working XEP-065 servers caould be used only with accounts, registered on the server where it hosted.
  675. Maranda Ah of course
  676. Yagiza Maranda, so, they re private.
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  678. Zash But then they don't get the green checkmark on https://compliance.conversations.im/
  679. fippo yagiza: stun servers cost < 1000 bytes per call.
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  681. Yagiza fippo, yeah.
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  684. Yagiza fippo, that's why they could be preferred over relays.
  685. Maranda Yagiza: well it would be not very *cool* to have an open socks5 proxy either tbh
  686. Yagiza Maranda, yes. And that's why it's a good idea to transfer files over UDP.
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  688. fippo yagiza: that is what ice (rfc 5245 / xep-0176) does. try everything, prefer the cheapest
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  690. Yagiza fippo, I didn't find a way of using UDP thru NAT without a relay described in RFC 5245.
  691. fippo yagiza: that is what stun does in that context. you gather public ips, then do holepunching. works 70% of the time
  692. Zash 70% of the time it works every time
  693. fippo unless you are in chrome where it depends on the direction of the connection -- but google folks won't bother investigating :-)
  694. Yagiza fippo, hey! Don't mix srflx and relay addresses. You won't be able to establish a TCP connection with srflx candidates and UDP do not provide reliability!
  695. fippo yagiza: ice-tcp doesn't work for p2p, that is well-known.
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  697. Yagiza fippo, yes! So we go back to my first sentence.
  698. fippo yagiza: FYI: i am running a hundreds of turn servers all around the world.
  699. Yagiza fippo, we need a XEP for using UDP for file transfer.
  700. Zash Oh, can you anycast such?
  701. fippo yagiza: run it over ice if you want it to work. jingle also has a raw udp mode but i doubt anyone bothers anymore
  702. Yagiza fippo, are they free to use?
  703. fippo yagiza: no.
  704. Yagiza fippo, and that's enough to think they are not exist.
  705. fippo yagiza: would you please explain that to the people sending me bills for datatransfer over their network?
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  707. Yagiza fippo, why do I need that?
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  709. fippo i would prefer not to pay those bills :-)
  710. Yagiza fippo, yes. That's why I tell that we need a way to perform file transfer over UDP.
  711. Zash There is no such thing as a free byte
  712. fippo yagiza: https://www.twilio.com/stun-turn/pricing -- just to give you an impression of cost. they make a good margin on that...
  713. Yagiza Zash, yes. That's why we need to save traffic thru servers. 'cause their owners do not want pay for other people's traffic.
  714. Zash Yagiza: *networks*
  715. Zash Bandwidth usage costs too
  716. fippo yes. that is why using TURN is only a fallback in ice.
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  718. Yagiza fippo, yes. But it's impossible to use TCP in ICE without TURN when entities are behind their NAT's.
  719. Yagiza fippo, so once again: we need a way to perform file transfer with UDP.
  720. Zash Yagiza: Write the XEP then? :)
  721. fippo yagiza: use xep-0343 which runs over ice.
  722. Yagiza Zash, yes. That's what I suggest.
  723. fippo https://github.com/legastero/jingle-interop-demos/ -- the stanza.io demo allowed that five years ago.
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  725. Yagiza fippo, thanx. I'll investigate it.
  726. fippo i wouldn't be surpised if that particular version was broken due to changes in webrtc.
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  729. Yagiza fippo, but I guess relying on things like WebRTC is not a good idea at all. We can just create a simple transport protocol just to provide reliability when sending data stream over UDP.
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  732. fippo yagiza: people didn't come up with RFC 5245 (or its successor) for fun.
  733. Link Mauve edhelas, have you tested Movim against these five clients, btw?
  734. Link Mauve Yagiza, another benefit of WebRTC is that you suddenly are compatible with web clients too.
  735. Link Mauve Of which there are actually quite a few already.
  736. Yagiza fippo, what do you mean?
  737. fippo yagiza: NATs are a bit more complicated to traverse than you expect
  738. Yagiza fippo, NATs are easily traversed by ICE. Do I suggest not to use ICE for NAT traversing or something?
  739. fippo yes.
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  741. Yagiza fippo, please, sho me the place where I told such things.
  742. fippo if you don'T like browsers, there are libs like https://github.com/rawrtc/rawrtc or https://github.com/jlaine/aiortc/
  743. fippo yagiza: ah... i missed a "not". but you keep saying "udp" and ice is not just udp
  744. Yagiza fippo, I strongly suggest using ICE for NAT traversing. And that's why I suggest to make a XEP for file transfer over UDP.
  745. fippo yagiza: 0343 + 0234
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  747. fippo (0234 can use 0176, 0343 provides datachannels for reliability)
  748. Yagiza fippo, ok. If you think WebRTC is the best way to provide reliability over UDP, let's agree on this.
  749. fippo technically what provides reliability is sctp over dtls over sctp but saying its webrtc leaves a hole for quic to sneak in :-)
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  753. Yagiza I just don't like so many unfamiliar abbreviations. It suggests me that each of them add some overhead.
  754. fippo it was easier in the old days of ircs DCC
  755. Yagiza fippo, yeah. I used DCC, but never thought about how it works.
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  775. Ge0rG DCC was notoriously broken with NAT. And then you had mod_conntrack_irc and then you connected to a non standard port and it was all bad again.
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