Friday, November 02, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:14:52] <flow> jonas’, which server side impl does the full flush?
[07:16:58] <flow> ahh it is "bytes saved", that is why full flush percentages are lower…
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[08:51:27] <jonas’> flow, I hacked the prosody impl to do a full flush
[08:52:54] <Ge0rG> ain't it called a "straight flush"? 😁
[08:53:00] <Ge0rG> how do you add images to the xmpp wiki?
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[08:55:50] <pep.> There's a special page to upload file on mediawiki? That's usually accessible on the panel on the left when editing a page
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[08:56:47] <Ge0rG> pep.: yes, that's about what I know. But that link isn't there, so now I'm lost.
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[08:58:10] <pep.> /Special:Upload
[08:59:16] <pep.> If not maybe that's disabled?
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[08:59:59] <ralphm> It is disabled
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[09:01:50] <Ge0rG> And I presume you can't inline-link externally hosted files?
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[09:18:03] <flow> jonas’, good job. that sounds like it is possible to make prosody announce a zlib-with-full-flush-or-whatever-you-wanna-call-it compression method
[09:18:13] <dwd> jonas’, Real percentages are much higher, or at least they used to be. I did a load of work compressing real traffic captures - but performing a sync flush after multiple stanzas helps a lot, and using CSI really drives it up.
[09:19:05] <Ge0rG> dwd: CSI doesn't absolve you from sync-flushing after each stanza, right?
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[09:19:34] <dwd> Ge0rG, I don't think anything mandates you sync-flush after every stanza - just after every buffer flush.
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[09:19:51] <flow> Ge0rG, you only need sync flush if there is no more data
[09:20:36] <dwd> flow, That's more or less what I was typing - you only flush once all the inbound traffic has been processed, at least on C2S.
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[09:21:34] <flow> dwd, sorry, I just didn't get what you meant with "after every buffer flush" and wanted to clarify it a bit for Ge0rG
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[09:21:58] <dwd> flow, Yeah, I was clarifying it the same way as you, but you beat me to it. :-)
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[09:23:13] <flow> dwd, I'm also confused why you wrote "inbound" traffic, I'd say it is the "outbound" traffic where an entity controls the zlib behavior. For inbound traffic it is just consuming whatever bytes have been send to it
[09:24:03] <dwd> flow, Ah. So if a client sends you N stanzas, you only need to flush after processing all N.
[09:24:11] <Ge0rG> dwd: the issue we are working around is that compression provides a plaintext size oracle for attackers, right?
[09:24:39] <flow> dwd, that again sounds like the receiving entity would flush
[09:24:45] <flow> which is kind of new to me
[09:25:00] <dwd> Ge0rG, Sure, if you think that's a realistic security problem, then you have to compress only traffic that can be influenced by one entity at a time. Which basically means compressing each stanza individually.
[09:25:21] <flow> dwd, or "do a full flush on every channel change"
[09:25:37] <Ge0rG> dwd: all security problems tend to become realistic sooner or later.
[09:25:39] <dwd> flow, It is exactly that. But it only makes a difference on C2S, I hasten to add.
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[09:26:10] <flow> dwd: hmm, well as long as the from/to pair does not change on s2s…
[09:26:16] <dwd> Ge0rG, Sure. But the compression oracle in HTTP was significant because it allowed access to password data, for example.
[09:26:25] <flow> you don't need to drop the dictionary, I think
[09:26:29] <Ge0rG> dwd: are you saying that s2s is not affected by the oracle vulnerability, or that the channel stays always the same between the two server domains?
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[09:26:48] <flow> Ge0rG, I think he meant that the channel changes with every stanza
[09:27:05] <flow> but I'd argue that the channel stays stable until the from/to pair changes
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[09:27:55] <flow> whereas in c2s, on of from/to is always fixed
[09:27:59] <flow> *one
[09:28:01] <Ge0rG> By that logic, with CSI we should reorder messages so that same-channel messages are sent consecutively
[09:28:11] <dwd> *sigh*
[09:28:18] <flow> I don't follow how this is implied by that logic
[09:29:41] <dwd> I think that you can run a compression-oracle attack on S2S more easily - I think it's easier to inject traffic, and possibly easier to witness the transport channel as well - but you'd find it harder to get anything useful once you had the attack in place.
[09:30:27] <Ge0rG> dwd: the compression oracle in HTTP made it comparably easy to extract credentials, yes. But it does apply to content as well, just that it's rather hard for an attacker to control data injected after the typical body of a web site.
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[09:30:41] <Ge0rG> with XMPP, the game is vastly different
[09:30:43] <flow> Slightly unrelated: I also wonder how widespread s2s compression is
[09:31:13] <dwd> flow, Not very. Early versions of Openfire did it, but we disabled it (because it stopped working).
[09:31:19] <Ge0rG> I don't know, but I'd argue that s2s compression is largely irrelevant in typical federated deployments
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[09:32:09] <dwd> It wouldn't surprise me if M-Link did it, given its use-cases, but I don't know (and it's a looong time since I knew that kind of thing).
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[09:32:50] <flow> Ge0rG, I'm not sure about the "irrelevant" part
[09:33:14] <Ge0rG> flow: irrelevant in the sense that you are not gaining much from it
[09:33:15] <flow> Not everyone hosts its XMPP server in a well connected datacenter
[09:33:41] <flow> Ge0rG, I figured so far, but I still believe that this may not be true in every case.
[09:33:55] <Ge0rG> flow: if you run your XMPP server in your basement on a crappy ADSL line, you are probably not going to use IBB transfers much
[09:34:28] <flow> Ge0rG, i was thinking more about third world countries
[09:35:26] <dwd> flow, Well, tactical military deployments are all S2S over long/thin links, but usually with heavy compression on the links themselves, so I'm not sure '138 would be needed.
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[09:36:56] <dwd> Still, all this is rather irrelevant. If we posit that content ends up fully encrypted under OMEMO/MLS/OX/eSessions/PGP then it's incompressible (one hopes). The remaining traffic is best compressed by EXI.
[09:38:28] <flow> True, but then again, we are far from the point where content is fully, or even mostly, encrypted. It may take years until we reach that.
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[09:39:43] <flow> So I am again not sure about the "irrlevant" part :)
[09:39:54] <Ge0rG> dwd: if the s2s connection is encrypted, you can't compress it much on the underlying link layer
[09:40:10] <dwd> Ge0rG, WHich is why they don't in those circumstances.
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[09:57:43] <jonas’> dwd, right, so both the prosody and aioxmpp implementations do a sync (or full) flush after each stanza
[09:58:04] <jonas’> so by implementing some CORKing, that could be made better I suppose
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[09:59:10] <fffo881> F
[10:03:01] <dwd> G
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[10:03:36] <flow> jonas’, CORKing?
[10:03:49] <jonas’> flow, like TCP CORK, where you wait for more data for a short period of time before sending it out
[10:04:53] <flow> ahh, nagle algorithmus, right?
[10:05:29] <MattJ> Similar, but manual
[10:05:33] <dwd> jonas’, Yeah, that's Nagle not CORK. CORK is holding the transmission until you manually release it.
[10:06:10] <jonas’> dwd, isn’t nagle that thing which reduces the data rate when stuff gets lost?
[10:06:23] <jonas’> I am lost in the TCP termini, sorry for the confusion.
[10:06:35] <flow> jonas’, I don't think so
[10:06:40] <jonas’> you’re probably both right :)
[10:06:46] <jonas’> nevermind me, you know what I mean (now) though :)
[10:06:50] <dwd> jonas’, No, that's backoff, which might well have been developed by Jon Nagle, but doesn't bear his name at least.
[10:06:54] <flow> nagle just defers the write a widen the window for more data from the application
[10:07:01] <MattJ> jonas’, Nagle's is basically automatic corking at the beginning of a connection
[10:07:02] <flow> batch/bundle and defer
[10:07:06] <jonas’> ok
[10:08:07] <flow> now that I read up on TCP_CORK I can imagine that it isn't heavily used because it appears to be error prone
[10:08:10] <dwd> jonas’, And then there's the reverse - lose stuff when the data rate drops - which is best done with RED, which is Sally Fields's design as I recall. But I don't think that makes sense in XMPP.
[10:08:31] <jonas’> this was more about the concept anyways
[10:08:37] <dwd> flow, Very platform specific too, and irrelevant to us because we need to compress as we go, I think.
[10:08:58] <flow> MattJ, "at the beginning of a connection"? Isn't nagle used over the whole lifetime of a connection (if enabled)?
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[10:10:00] <MattJ> Mmm, yeah, sorry
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[10:11:33] <flow> jonas’, if the idea is to wait for more outbound stanzas until you give the network layer green light to send it, then I'm fully with you. And like to note that Smack allows for that since many years. Even though I've implemented it to reduce the powered-up time of the radio, it will also help regarding the compression ratio
[10:12:02] <jonas’> flow, no, the idea is to wait for more stanzas before performing the full/sync flush in zlib
[10:12:07] <jonas’> instead of flushing after each stanza
[10:12:08] <flow> MattJ, no worries, just wanted to make sure that I'm not missing something
[10:12:19] <jonas’> (of course taking into account the "(to, from) pair must match to be secure" criterion)
[10:12:39] <flow> jonas’, I think we are talking about the same mechanism
[10:12:42] <jonas’> good
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[10:13:22] <flow> I just want to point out that it also increases efficiency in other areas
[10:13:27] <jonas’> true
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[10:31:06] <Ge0rG> what about having a zlib dictionary per JID?
[10:31:55] <jonas’> memory cost
[10:32:10] <jonas’> and I think both parties need to agree on the dictionary beforehand
[10:32:18] <jonas’> so you’d have to transfer that dictionary every time you switch?
[10:32:42] <jonas’> or if you had multiple compression streams, you’d have to have an out-of-band way to signal to the peer which one the next bytes belongs to
[10:32:44] <jonas’> or if you had multiple compression streams, you’d have to have an out-of-band way to signal to the peer which one the next bytes belong to
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[10:36:48] <Ge0rG> Yay.
[10:36:51] <dwd> You could build state-switching into the compression framing, of course, but yeah - memory cost would be scary-huge.
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[10:40:51] <jonas’> regarding the use of compression and e2ee: zlib seems to be rather good at reversing the base64-bloat, so that’s at least something.
[10:42:52] <Ge0rG> We need a way to embed raw bytestreams into XML.
[10:43:03] <Ge0rG> Or just replace XML with... protobufs? ASN.1?
[10:43:16] <jonas’> using base92 would probably go a long way already
[10:43:17] <Zash> XER
[10:43:27] <jonas’> (or was it 96?)
[10:43:38] <jonas’> anything above that would give diminishing returns due to UTF-8 encoding anyways
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[10:43:47] <Ge0rG> jonas’: base-91
[10:44:09] <Ge0rG> yeah, UTF-8 is not an efficient encoding.
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[10:44:40] <dwd> Well. Not in terms of bits, anyway.
[10:44:41] <jonas’> meh
[10:44:46] <jonas’> base91 uses < and >
[10:44:48] <jonas’> an &
[10:44:51] <jonas’> and &
[10:44:58] <jonas’> while not-using -, \ and '
[10:45:34] <Ge0rG> Anybody still remembers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YEnc ?
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[10:49:56] <jonas’> base85 seems to be the highest thing which is specified somewhere
[10:49:59] <jonas’> base85 seems to be the highest thing which is specified somewhere sane
[10:49:59] <dwd> I do occasionally muse over whether a dedicated XMLStream compression could outperform EXI in practical ways, though. Easy to have binary blobs instead of base64, for example, and we could accrue symbols and store dictionaries of XML symbols between sessions and things. We could also ignore the problems of comments, PIs, etc. Possibly even ignore namespaced attributes, since we never (?) use them.
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[10:50:39] <jonas’> don’t shut the door on namespaced attributes completely.
[10:51:12] <Ge0rG> XML is really a horrible encoding protocol for machines.
[10:51:40] <flow> what jonas’ said
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[10:51:47] <Zash> It's fine, don't worry too much
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[10:52:24] <dwd> jonas’, Well, it wouldn't matter if they were considered an outlier and not encoded very efficiently, at least.
[10:52:48] <jonas’> dwd, that’s true
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[10:53:44] <dwd> Ge0rG, I quite like many of the properties of XML for our purposes. Certainly the alternatives would make a bunch of things much more painful - and I always have a nagging feeling that a construct like JSON imposes a data structure that is hard to break away from.
[10:54:49] <Zash> Do something like header compression in h2?
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[10:55:35] <Ge0rG> dwd: JSON shares most of the disadvantages of XML
[10:55:57] <Zash> CBOR!
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[10:58:24] <Ge0rG> I liked the MIDI format, where all numbers are dynamic-width.
[10:59:03] <dwd> Ge0rG, Or BER, where they can be?
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[10:59:52] <jonas’> matroshka?
[10:59:54] <jonas’> matroshka!
[11:00:11] <Ge0rG> dwd: I'd go with DER for lesser ambiguity
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[11:00:37] <Zash> PER?
[11:00:39] <dwd> Ge0rG, CER?
[11:00:46] <Ge0rG> Also whoever made it possible to encode U-0000 as an arbitrarily long UTF-8 sequence deserves the highest punishment.
[11:01:00] <jonas’> tell me more
[11:01:13] <jonas’> can’t you encode all things as arbitrarily long utf-8 sequence though?
[11:01:28] <dwd> jonas’, Only by ignoring the standard.
[11:01:44] <jonas’> but that’s not true for U+0000?
[11:02:09] <Zash> JSON Encoding Rules
[11:02:11] <Ge0rG> jonas’: I'm only bitching because U+0000 has special meaning in C.
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[11:04:26] <Ge0rG> jonas’: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8#Description - UTF-8 just stuffs the data bits after the header. A sane encoding would be to automatically add 0x80 to the bits in a two-byte encoded charset, because you can represent the first 0x80 values in one byte, etc.
[11:04:39] <Ge0rG> jonas’: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8#Description - UTF-8 just stuffs the data bits after the header. A sane encoding would be to automatically add 0x80 to the bits in a two-byte encoded codepoint, because you can represent the first 0x80 values in one byte, etc.
[11:05:03] <jonas’> yeah
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[11:08:46] <Ge0rG> it would also reduce the required number of bytes.
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[11:26:40] <Link Mauve> “Possibly even ignore namespaced attributes, since we never (?) use them.”, we do, @xml:lang for instance.
[11:26:51] <Link Mauve> dwd, ↑
[11:27:13] <dwd> Ah, true. But known ones like that we'd handle differently anyway.
[11:28:39] <Link Mauve> “12:00:46 Ge0rG> Also whoever made it possible to encode U-0000 as an arbitrarily long UTF-8 sequence deserves the highest punishment.”, you’re expected to reject it though.
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[11:28:46] <Link Mauve> Same as any other overly-long sequence.
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[11:59:19] <dwd> Oh. I found an actual bug in MUC.
[11:59:31] <MattJ> I'm all ears
[11:59:32] <Ge0rG> No way!
[11:59:35] <jonas’> Just one?
[12:00:04] <dwd> Well, sorta, anyway. When a client drops, it sends unavailable to the MUC automatically because Magic(tm) on the server.
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[12:00:39] <dwd> But if the MUC switches nickname on join (210 code stuff), then the directed presence recorded on the server is wrong, and the user never leaves.
[12:00:45] <jonas’> yes
[12:00:46] <MattJ> Oh, that one
[12:00:48] <jonas’> that’s a known issue
[12:00:55] <jonas’> servers need to track nickname changes for that :)
[12:01:16] <dwd> I'd seen it with nickname changes, but it didn't occur to me (for some reason) it'd happen with nickname enforcing.
[12:01:58] <Ge0rG> Why can't we just implement MUC proxies on the server.
[12:02:09] <Ge0rG> That really would solve 99% of MUC's problems, in a backward compatible manner
[12:02:23] <Ge0rG> Zash even wrote a POC already.
[12:02:47] <Ge0rG> It's got some minor drawbacks, like you can't ever leave a MUC.
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[12:03:38] <fippo> ge0rg: i think one of the dmuc proposals took that approach
[12:04:23] <jonas’> which is fun, by the way, because it means that the user’s server needs to support MUC for it to work properly :-)
[12:04:28] <jonas’> which reminds me of MIX
[12:04:49] <jonas’> except that with MUC, this requirement is hidden and not spelt out and you can join a MUC without that requirement fulfilled and have it work to a certain extent and then run in weird edge cases :)
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[12:05:08] <Ge0rG> jonas’: you mean the weird edge cases we cope with every day now?
[12:05:16] <Ge0rG> Like never leaving a MUC if you changed your nickname?
[12:05:31] <jonas’> yes
[12:06:10] <Ge0rG> The awesome thing about MUC Proxy would be that it's 100% transparent to the clients and can be rolled out in an instant as an upgrade to fix most of the issues.
[12:06:30] <Ge0rG> Also could include offline notifications and other nice things.
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[12:14:24] <jonas’> mh
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[12:14:32] <jonas’> it would be somewhat like biboumi but for xmpp
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[12:14:52] <jonas’> and looking at the quirks which still are there with persistency and biboumi, I’m not sure it’s as easy as you make it out to be
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[12:16:59] <Ge0rG> jonas’: the quirks are there because the biboumi developers violently refuse to accept what's good design and practice.
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[12:17:49] <jonas’> hm, where?
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[12:22:45] <Ge0rG> jonas’: like where they send you individual messages to all of your resources with Carbons disabled?
[12:23:43] <jonas’> what would be a better way?
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[12:30:33] <flow> I don't see a problem with that either, but I believe it should be the responsiblity of the receiving entity that they messages arrive on all devices (if it whishes so), not of the sending
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[12:34:44] <Ge0rG> flow: the problem is that if you go offline, your messages get rerouted to a different resource, which ends up with two, three or four copies
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[12:35:25] <flow> Ge0rG, ahh, ok I see the issue now.
[12:35:34] <jonas’> Ge0rG, but on the other hand, relying on carbons would mean that resources which are not interested in those messages (read: not joined in any IRC) get them.
[12:35:35] <flow> but wait,
[12:35:46] <jonas’> there’s no good solution here
[12:35:50] <jonas’> and we’ll have the same issues with MUC proxies.
[12:35:56] <flow> you have to go offline while biboumi is sending, otherwhise biboumi won't know of the resource
[12:36:19] <flow> Ge0rG, do you experience that a lot?
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[12:36:37] <Ge0rG> flow: there used to be a long discussion on the biboumi tracker
[12:37:22] <flow> with many people reporting to hit that issue of duplicate messages?
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[12:37:30] <Ge0rG> jonas’: that's the same problem as with MUCs you join from one client only and the PM Carbons.
[12:37:37] <Ge0rG> flow: yeah
[12:38:07] <Ge0rG> https://lab.louiz.org/louiz/biboumi/issues/3277
[12:38:09] <jonas’> Ge0rG, yes
[12:38:17] <Ge0rG> > Opened 1 year ago by Jonas Schäfer
[12:38:52] <jonas’> > Closed
[12:38:54] <Ge0rG> Also https://lab.louiz.org/louiz/biboumi/issues/3304
[12:39:12] <jonas’> also Closed
[12:39:18] <Ge0rG> jonas’: took some months to convince them.
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[12:39:29] <jonas’> not für #3277
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[12:40:49] <Ge0rG> jonas’: I can't find a way to search for comments by me, but I'm sure most of those would be bitching about how the developers don't understand XMPP.
[12:41:13] <jonas’> I wouldn’t accuse them of that.
[12:41:35] <jonas’> also, they’re still doing great work. I’m fine with the community ironing out the rough edges by filing issues.
[12:41:44] <Ge0rG> jonas’: oh, yes they are.
[12:42:02] <Ge0rG> biboumi is the best cross-protocol gateway I've ever seen.
[12:42:06] <jonas’> indeed.
[12:43:06] <Ge0rG> jonas’: the other thing being https://lab.louiz.org/louiz/biboumi/issues/3283
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[12:56:03] <jonas’> Ge0rG, that might be fixed during the refactor mentioned in #3382
[12:56:30] <Ge0rG> jonas’: it's not about things being fixed, it's about how hard it is to convince the developers that they _need_ to be fixed.
[12:56:46] <jonas’> edge-cases all abound
[12:57:13] <jonas’> lots of edge-cases not only means lots of code to write, it also means lots of hard-to-reproduce stuff which will be tricky to nail down and prove.
[12:57:20] <jonas’> and we’ll have exactly the same issues with a MUC proxy
[12:57:44] <Ge0rG> I'm a certified MUC Corner Case Debugging Engineer.
[12:58:16] <Zash> If that's the case, where's your diploma?
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[13:05:04] <Ge0rG> https://op-co.de/tmp/MUC-CCDE.jpg
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[13:06:26] <Seve> Good job Ge0rG! You deserve it!
[13:06:27] <jonas’> well done
[13:06:28] *Seve claps
[13:06:31] <jonas’> put it on your council application
[13:06:55] *jonas’ wonders about the significance of that date
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[13:07:14] <Ge0rG> jonas’: @horazont horazont merged commit b017284 into xsf:master on Mar 8
[13:07:54] <jonas’> ah, #stable_id
[13:08:08] <edhelas> Ge0rG don't fix too much MUC, we'll not have reasons to work on MIX anymore
[13:08:46] <Ge0rG> jonas’: good idea!
[13:10:24] <Ge0rG> edhelas: now you uncovered my evil secret plan!
[13:10:46] <edhelas> Make MUC Great Again
[13:11:07] <Zash> MUC was never great
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[14:00:31] <pep.> Who can modify the xsf calendar? To add 35C3
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[14:05:18] <pep.> I still have one last voucher btw, if people are interested. Grab it now or it will expire
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[15:34:07] <edhelas> In 0060 the <configure/> tag is defined this way
<xs:element name='configure'>
<xs:complexType>
<xs:choice minOccurs='0' xmlns:xdata='jabber:x:data'>
<xs:element ref='xdata:x'/>
</xs:choice>
</xs:complexType>
</xs:element>
[15:34:22] <edhelas> However I see some <configure node='princely_musings'> in the examples
[15:35:01] <edhelas> Shoundn't we add <xs:attribute name='node' type='xs:string' use='required'/> ?
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[16:46:23] <Ge0rG> Our wiki also has a horrible mobile expediency. Pinging I-team
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[18:58:25] <ralphm> edhelas: well, not required. If using collections, you also want to be able to configure the root node, which is basically leaving off the node attribute.
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[18:59:54] <ralphm> Also, you're looking at the wrong namespace. Try pubsub#owner
[19:00:38] <ralphm> The one in the regular pubsub node goes together with <create/> where you already have the node reference.
[19:00:46] <ralphm> eh, pubsub namespace
[19:01:17] <edhelas> ralphm thanks for the precision
[19:01:19] <edhelas> my bad
[19:01:26] <ralphm> So example 137 vs 140
[19:01:30] <ralphm> no worries
[19:01:58] <ralphm> I still regret we used multiple namespaces
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[19:27:14] <Zash> The verb another level in is weird too
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