Monday, November 05, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[15:29:47] <ralphm> vanitasvitae: done, should be crawled somewhere in the next 30min
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[15:55:17] <vanitasvitae> ralphm: nice. Thank you very much :)
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[16:04:55] <jonas’> is there any reason to use a CSPRNG for stanza @id values?
[16:05:38] <jonas’> (if one checks both @from and @id when associating replies)
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[16:11:28] <Zash> jonas’: Probably overkill, but why not?
[16:11:43] <jonas’> Zash, takes double the time
[16:11:53] <jonas’> (when sourced from getrandom())
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[16:13:40] <Zash> because syscall?
[16:13:49] <jonas’> yeah
[16:13:54] <jonas’> (probably)
[16:18:46] <Zash> jonas’: compared to what? and is it a problem?
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[16:20:06] <jonas’> Zash, compared to the mersenne twister
[16:20:15] <jonas’> we’re revisiting how aioxmpp generates stanza IDs
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[16:45:22] <Ge0rG> I wonder what the possible attack vector is. Injecting IQ responses ahead of the actual response? By whom?
[16:45:52] <Ge0rG> Unless you have a smack3 level of stanza correlation, where you just run a packet listener based on the packet ID, ignoring the @from
[16:47:41] <jonas’> that was my train of thought, too
[16:47:54] <jonas’> anyone who would be able to inject a reply is on the path anyways and can observe the @from and the @id
[16:48:03] <jonas’> assuming that s2s authentication and routing in servers works as intended
[16:48:17] <Ge0rG> a bold assumption.
[16:48:59] <jonas’> so if you can off-path inject stanzas due to broken s2s authentication (but you cannot intercept them entirely), being able to predict stanza IDs would be useful
[16:49:28] <jonas’> this could work with broken one-way s2s auth, some dialback stuff for example
[16:49:55] <Ge0rG> reminds me of the `Received[s2sout]` debug logs I saw today from my prosody.
[16:49:57] <jonas’> but uh
[16:50:04] <Ge0rG> s2s directions make me dizzy.
[16:50:26] <Zash> don't look at dialback
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[16:50:49] <Ge0rG> I won't. Dialback, PubSub and MIX are danger zones I avoid at all costs.
[16:51:02] <jonas’> so, the attack is rather hard and unlikely (it is more likely that you’ll be able to intercept the sent stanza and send a reply without having to guess the @id) and requires fault in another component
[16:51:16] <jonas’> huh, putting dialback into the same bucket as pubsub and mix is ... interesting
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[16:52:23] <Zash> jonas’: having multiple PRNGs available might lead to accidentally using a weak one for something sensitive, and if it's something that can slowly leak state that might be bad
[16:52:59] <jonas’> Zash, that’s what sebi is saying
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[17:09:15] <Kev> Not reading everything, but predictable IDs are a privacy leak rather than a practical attack, for the most part.
[17:09:43] <jonas’> how are they a privacy leak?
[17:10:04] <Kev> <message id='sessionstanza4234230498723408974'><body>Sorry, I've only just come online, I've not been ignoring you</...
[17:10:18] <jonas’> right
[17:10:25] <jonas’> that’s something different than just predictability though
[17:10:29] <jonas’> that’s sequential
[17:10:54] <Kev> It's somewhere in between, I think.
[17:10:58] <jonas’> a mersenne twister is predictable (with enough computing and enough samples), but by seeing a value, you don’t know whether that’s the first, tenth, or 1000th value
[17:11:04] <Kev> It doesn't have to be strictly sequential to have this property.
[17:11:11] <jonas’> mmm
[17:11:21] <jonas’> I see your point though
[17:12:15] <Kev> This was mostly a problem for two reasons:
1) People were using 1,2,3...
2) Some libraries are (were?) completely broken and ignored the sender of a stanza as long as the id was expected, so you could inject weird iq responses and they'd trust them.
[17:12:21] <Kev> (2) Is just brokenness
[17:12:35] <Kev> (1) has the unexpected privacy implications.
[17:12:45] <Ge0rG> yaxim is full of (2).
[17:12:46] <Kev> I don't think we need crypto-secure IDs.
[17:12:56] <Ge0rG> Now give me a CVE!
[17:13:18] <Zash> Ge0rG: Weren't there one or more for that already?
[17:13:43] <Ge0rG> Zash: not for that, no
[17:13:59] <Ge0rG> yaxim's got two CVEs so far IIRC.
[17:14:33] <Zash> Ge0rG: I distinctly remember CVE(s) for not checking 'from' on eg roster pushes that affected a *ton* of clients.
[17:16:54] <Ge0rG> Zash: yeah, I think smack wasn't affected or somesuch
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[18:39:44] <Alex> memberbot is online for accepting your votes on the board & council election
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[18:43:31] <Seve> Great! Thank you Alex
[18:43:36] <Seve> And good luck everyone!
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[18:52:09] <jonas’> thanks, Alex
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[19:32:38] <Ge0rG> Last time I checked, one of the applications was still empty...
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[19:39:14] <jonas’> they’re all non-empty :)
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[20:34:30] <Alex> there was some hard last minute work happening ;-)
[20:34:49] <jonas’> as usual..
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[23:13:37] <lovetox> Gajim uses uuid as id, but i just checked and indeed it does not check the answer adress
[23:13:39] <lovetox> just the id
[23:13:46] <lovetox> how bad is this?
[23:13:48] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[23:15:28] <lovetox> i guess if someone is in the position to utilize that, then the id doesnt matter anyway because he is a man in the middle?
[23:16:28] <lovetox> hm yeah the chance that another contact guesses the uuid at the exact right time is impossible
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