Thursday, November 08, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[00:01:00] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[01:18:14] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[02:17:49] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
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[03:44:33] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
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[05:18:17] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[05:27:51] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
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[06:01:35] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
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[06:04:03] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[06:07:36] *** genofire shows as "online"
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[06:13:06] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[06:13:27] *** dwd shows as "online"
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[06:23:06] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[07:15:34] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:16:24] *** ta shows as "online"
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[07:41:00] *** genofire shows as "online"
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[07:45:10] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[07:46:00] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:48:30] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
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[07:55:36] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[07:56:00] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[08:08:46] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:08:50] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:12:20] *** krauq has left the room
[08:13:05] *** Kev shows as "away"
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[08:19:37] *** andy shows as "away"
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[08:20:04] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[08:21:21] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:22:49] *** krauq shows as "online"
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[08:25:08] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:25:17] *** andy shows as "online"
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[08:30:41] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
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[08:30:41] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[08:30:41] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[08:30:41] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[08:30:41] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[08:30:52] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[08:30:59] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:31:11] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
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[08:31:17] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
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[08:31:20] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[08:31:20] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[08:31:20] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[08:31:26] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[08:31:26] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
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[08:31:30] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
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[08:31:33] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[08:31:33] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[08:31:33] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[08:31:34] *** Valerian has joined the room
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[08:31:37] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[08:31:37] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[08:31:37] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[08:31:38] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[08:32:27] *** krauq has left the room
[08:35:08] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:35:36] *** andy shows as "away"
[08:36:04] *** marc has left the room
[08:37:21] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[08:38:30] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[08:40:36] *** andy shows as "xa"
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[08:59:15] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[09:02:54] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[09:13:46] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[09:13:51] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[09:15:57] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[09:17:23] *** Alex has joined the room
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[09:18:55] *** dwd shows as "online"
[09:21:38] *** Ge0rG has left the room
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[09:29:50] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[09:43:45] *** andy shows as "away"
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[09:49:43] *** andy shows as "online"
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[09:54:50] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:07:51] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:09:23] *** l has left the room
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[10:16:23] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
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[10:17:29] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
[10:18:25] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[10:18:37] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[10:20:01] *** labdsf has joined the room
[10:25:41] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:27:35] *** genofire has left the room
[10:27:59] *** andy shows as "away"
[10:29:29] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[10:30:30] *** Str4tocaster has left the room
[10:30:43] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:30:46] *** Str4tocaster has joined the room
[10:30:55] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
[10:32:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:32:58] *** andy shows as "xa"
[10:33:03] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[10:33:08] *** Str4tocaster has left the room
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[10:33:34] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
[10:34:54] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[10:36:37] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
[10:39:47] *** labdsf has left the room
[10:42:35] *** Kev shows as "away"
[10:42:35] *** Kev shows as "online"
[10:42:35] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[10:42:36] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[10:42:36] *** Kev shows as "away"
[10:42:36] *** Kev shows as "online"
[10:44:04] *** genofire has left the room
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[10:44:59] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
[10:45:29] *** rion shows as "online"
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[10:47:51] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
[10:48:33] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:50:24] *** Str4tocaster has left the room
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[10:50:49] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
[10:50:53] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:53:31] *** andy shows as "online"
[10:56:10] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[10:57:00] *** l shows as "online"
[10:57:06] *** l shows as "online"
[10:57:06] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[10:57:07] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[10:57:09] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[10:57:36] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[10:59:10] *** Kev shows as "online"
[11:00:17] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[11:00:21] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[11:01:33] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:02:10] *** marc has joined the room
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[11:08:03] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
[11:08:20] *** Kev shows as "away"
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[11:17:59] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[11:18:03] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[11:19:06] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[11:19:08] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[11:20:41] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[11:24:36] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
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[11:25:49] *** guusdk shows as "online"
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[11:30:25] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:30:40] *** genofire shows as "online"
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[14:22:56] <MattJ> Hey folks, I won't be able to make the meeting today - sorry for the short notice
[14:24:13] <nyco> thx for telling
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[14:30:18] <nyco> time?
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[14:30:35] <nyco> ralphm Guus
[14:30:49] <Guus> I'm here
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[14:32:03] <ralphm> Here
[14:32:26] *** ralphm changed the title to "XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings"
[14:32:29] *ralphm bangs gavel
[14:32:34] <ralphm> 0. Welcome + Agenda
[14:32:38] <ralphm> Hi all
[14:32:55] <Guus> o/
[14:34:40] <nyco> hey
[14:35:12] <ralphm> I think the primary things are Elections and ED
[14:35:29] <ralphm> So let's start with those.
[14:35:33] <ralphm> 1. Elections
[14:35:41] <ralphm> I am happy to see voting has started.
[14:35:49] <ralphm> 6 candidates for Board and 5 for Council
[14:36:40] <ralphm> So with that well on the way, and the general meeting on Nov 22, there will be at most two more meetings with the current Board.
[14:37:09] <Guus> Curious: assuming that Council will consist of 5 people again: why vote on exactly 5 candidates?
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[14:37:33] <ralphm> Guus: because if the Members really don't want a certain candidate they could vote them out.
[14:37:49] <Guus> What's needed to vote someone out?
[14:37:51] <Guus> 0 votes?
[14:38:24] <ralphm> Hmm, that's a good point.
[14:38:51] <Guus> I'm happy to have a vote, but I'm just curious what the point is 🙂
[14:39:16] <nyco> switching to Condorcet method?
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[14:39:40] <Zash> In theory you could have done a single "Accept these 5 as council?" vote, but that gets messy with bot voting if it falls.
[14:40:25] <ralphm> Well, in membership elections we have yes/no for each candidate
[14:40:44] <ralphm> I don't recall why we use this other method for Council / Board
[14:41:24] <nyco> do we have to improve? what would we be fixing?
[14:41:39] <Zash> Lack of an election committe that puts forward a coherent proposal?
[14:42:19] <ralphm> I think previous elections we always had 6 or more candidates
[14:42:32] <Guus> Assuming that council will have the exact same amount of seats as the number of candidates, a vote is nothing more than a popularity contest. We _might_ want to avoid that.
[14:42:48] <Guus> but I'm totally OK with just doing the dance, and be done with it.
[14:43:05] <nyco> even with more candidates than seats, it is a popularitt contest
[14:43:06] <ralphm> Section 3.13 Voting Procedure for Election of Board and Council. Election of individuals to serve on the Board of Directors and on the XMPP Council shall proceed as follows. First, the number of individuals to serve on each body shall be limited beforehand by the Members as specified in Section 4.4 and Section 8.1 of these Bylaws for the Board and Council, respectively. Second, the Members shall vote on the candidates standing for election in accordance with Section 3.9 of these Bylaws. Third, the individuals elected shall be those receiving the highest percentage of votes cast, up to the limit set by the Members and with the proviso that no individual receiving less than a majority of votes cast shall be elected. Fourth, in the case of a tie for the final remaining position, the final individual shall be chosen in accordance with the procedures defined in “RFC 3797: Publicly Verifiable Nominations Committee (NomCom) Random Selection” published by the Internet Engineering Task Force.
[14:43:39] <ralphm> So yes, if there more than half of the voters abstain for a particular candidate, they don't get in
[14:43:48] <Guus> ok, good enough for me
[14:44:00] <Guus> thanks for checking
[14:44:08] <ralphm> Moving on then.
[14:44:21] <ralphm> 2. Executive Director
[14:44:28] <ralphm> We still haven't had a meeting, I think.
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[14:44:50] <Guus> nothing moved on that subject, afaik
[14:45:10] <ralphm> Guus: should we send an e-mail to Peter to find a slot?
[14:45:27] <Guus> yes
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[14:45:44] <ralphm> Ok, I'll do so
[14:45:46] <Guus> tx
[14:45:48] <ralphm> 3. AOB
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[14:45:54] <ralphm> Anything?
[14:45:58] <ralphm> Other?
[14:45:58] <Guus> nothing here
[14:46:06] <ralphm> nyco: ?
[14:46:06] <nyco> nothing
[14:46:09] <ralphm> Good.
[14:46:16] <ralphm> 4. Date of Next
[14:46:26] <ralphm> Our penultimate: +1W
[14:46:29] <Guus> wfm
[14:46:33] <ralphm> 5. Close
[14:46:38] <ralphm> Thanks!
[14:46:40] <nyco> wow
[14:46:44] <nyco> that was fast
[14:46:45] <Guus> So, on an interesting XMPP tidbit
[14:46:46] <nyco> thx
[14:46:48] *ralphm bangs gavel
[14:47:13] *** ralphm changed the title to "XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings"
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[14:48:03] <Guus> Dutch police recently announced that they were able to read end-to-end encrypted chats between criminals, on a dedicated network. They announced this, as police started to show up so often, that criminals started to make plans to assassinate 'snitches'
[14:48:18] <Guus> from screenshots of the app that they use, it can be deduced that XMPP was used.
[14:48:41] <nyco> Ironthing?
[14:48:42] <Guus> the e2e technology was OTR
[14:48:46] <Guus> yeah, that's it
[14:48:54] <Zash> mod_otr?
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[14:49:15] <Guus> dunno, I got this from news clippings only
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[14:50:22] <Guus> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/11/police-decrypt-258000-messages-after-breaking-pricey-ironchat-crypto-app/ <-- first non-Dutch google hit (I have not read it)
[14:50:26] <nyco> is this a real screenshot of the real app? or just a journalist taking a picture he likes?
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[14:51:22] <nyco> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-the-Record_Messaging#Client_support
[14:51:47] <nyco> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18401561
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[14:52:14] <nyco> so, should we obsolete OTR?
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[14:52:41] <nyco> not board's duty, but I demand a technical/ethical debate
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[14:53:17] <Guus> The ironchat screenshots lists messages in Dutch that clearly are example / demo texts.
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[14:56:26] <Guus> nyco, did the XSF ever standardize OTR-usage in the first place? I can find only one XEP, which is deferred: XEP-0364
[14:56:41] <nyco> good point
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[14:56:58] <Zash> Isn't half the point of OTR that it works regardless of transport?
[14:57:02] <nyco> we should use double-rot13 algo
[14:57:40] <Guus> Zash, I'm just trying to make the point that maybe there's nothing for us, the XSF, to obsolete, even if we wanted to.
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[14:58:10] <Zash> Guus: Correct.
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[14:58:26] <Guus> I'm not sure by the way if Dutch police actually broke OTR - the article implies that it's just as likely that the implementation that was used was broken.
[14:58:35] <nyco> so any entity other than XSF should issue something? (oh gosh I am so clear and precise)
[14:59:03] <Zash> The XSF could issue an Informational XEP saying "OTR is bad and you should feel bad"
[15:00:00] <nyco> or humourous
[15:00:08] <Zash> :)
[15:00:44] <Guus> I'm not knowledgeable enough to tell if OTR is actually that bad.
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[15:00:55] <Guus> I do think it's a bad idea to start writing XEPs on what not to do.
[15:01:12] <Guus> XEP-0999: "Don't do drugs"
[15:01:26] <nyco> what would be XEP-0666 ?
[15:01:57] <Zash> XEP-0666 Selling your soul over XMPP
[15:02:11] <nyco> 😈
[15:02:59] <daniel> > I'm not sure by the way if Dutch police actually broke OTR - the article implies that it's just as likely that the implementation that was used was broken.
My understanding is that they man in the middled that
[15:03:09] <daniel> And key verification wasn't very strong
[15:03:24] <Zash> Magic crypto dust didn't save them?!
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[15:05:19] <Guus> The irony of successfully doing MIM on a technology that's designed to run in a federated setup... 💕
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[15:14:53] <moparisthebest> it's not like that's exactly a new or unknown problem https://www.ejabberd.im/mod_otr 2007-03-30
[15:15:17] <moparisthebest> I wouldn't be surprised if they simply installed an 11+ year old ejabberd module
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[15:15:38] <moparisthebest> but that's not as good of a headline as DUTCH POLICE BREAK OTR
[15:15:49] <daniel> Given the amount of refactoring that went into ejabberd I'd be a little bit surprised
[15:15:56] <daniel> But I get your point
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[15:16:26] <moparisthebest> given how shoddy the app was at not caring about keys changing, they probably were running an ejabberd from 2007 :)
[15:19:06] <Guus> https://web.archive.org/web/20180419140229/http://blackbox-security.com/index_new.php
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[15:19:25] <Zash> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18403477
[15:19:48] <Guus> that's the (now seized) website of the company that sold the solution.
[15:19:55] <Guus> index_new.php <-- meh.
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[15:21:00] <moparisthebest> if you are looking for secure code and the website is served from index_new.php I think that should be a sign
[15:21:01] <Zash> Guus: index_new2.php
[15:21:34] <Guus> ah, yes.
[15:21:44] <Guus> So, an old Conversations? nice 🙂
[15:21:52] <daniel> > I think it is a copy/fork of Conversations version 1.14.6
Far far from being the only one in that market fwiw
[15:22:13] <Zash> > I use PGP to say hi and hello, i use IronChat (OTR) to have a serious conversation
Edward Snowden  [More Info \>\>](index_new2.php)
[15:22:16] <moparisthebest> I don't think I used Conversations with OTR, how did it handle key changes?
[15:22:29] <daniel> moparisthebest: not at all. Lol
[15:22:36] <moparisthebest> well, there you go :P
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[15:25:15] <daniel> (that's an oversimplification. It would display a warning Snackbar if you had previously verified a key. But chances are you didn't. And by that point it would technically have already been to late. It didn't block the sending like omemo would these days)
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[15:40:01] <daniel> Also the old version was a xabber clone. So it's a little bit unclear if those people decompiling on hackernews and the police are talking about the same app
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[16:37:52] <jonas’> 15:05:19 Guus> The irony of successfully doing MIM on a technology that's designed to run in a federated setup...

The irony for something like that to happen to *Iron*(y)chat. Sorry.
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[17:16:26] <Andrew Nenakhov> I think they MitMed it after getting access to server console via hosting company.
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[17:17:31] <jonas’> seems plausible
[17:17:49] <Andrew Nenakhov> Wanna hear a fascinating story?
[17:18:04] <jonas’> always, although I’ll have to leave in a few minutes (I’ll read the backlog :))
[17:18:18] <Andrew Nenakhov> I think it was me who discovered they are MitMed
[17:20:25] <Andrew Nenakhov> This guy made donations to Xabber development once in a couple of years, a year ago asked us to make file exchange into his extremely modified version of Xabber
[17:20:32] <Andrew Nenakhov> We did
[17:21:03] <Andrew Nenakhov> Since that time he asked me some xmpp related questions from time to time
[17:21:26] <Andrew Nenakhov> Then one day he asks, my otr fingerprints don't match each other
[17:21:51] <Andrew Nenakhov> I say hmm maybe you fucked up code, let me see
[17:22:22] <Andrew Nenakhov> His app was quite hardcore in geocities style
[17:22:53] <Andrew Nenakhov> So I connected to his server with Xabber. Okk. Otr established. Fingerprints don't match.
[17:23:01] <Andrew Nenakhov> I say hmm.
[17:24:04] <Andrew Nenakhov> Long story short, I started to suspect mitm (an idea I dismissed at first, because have to ever been MitMed, really?!)
[17:24:40] <Andrew Nenakhov> Especially telling was that when connected from another server xmpp clients have established separate otr sessions
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[17:25:08] <Andrew Nenakhov> And messages did come through only after both client did establish sessions
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[17:26:54] <Andrew Nenakhov> Aaaand the most fascinating part, once I told him, it's definitely fucked up, I was kicked from openfire console! (he gave me access), he was kicked from all his terminals and our xmpp axxouts were blocked.
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[17:27:36] <daniel> Andrew Nenakhov: maybe *they* kicked you. Not him
[17:27:47] <Zash> THEY!
[17:27:57] <Andrew Nenakhov> Of course
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[17:29:09] <Andrew Nenakhov> He connected to me over XMPP, said he had disagreement with ex admin, so I suggested him shut down server and establish new one, bit then he went silent
[17:29:12] <daniel> So there is an mod_otr for OpenFire as well. Not just ejabberd
[17:29:20] <daniel> Interesting...
[17:29:34] <Andrew Nenakhov> Next,I come here and hear this story.
[17:29:41] <Andrew Nenakhov> Oops.
[17:30:05] <Andrew Nenakhov> So I think it's nothing wrong with otr if you check fingerprints
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[17:30:41] <Andrew Nenakhov> But. Perhaps I should talk to dutch police now. 😱
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[17:31:40] <Seve> Andrew Nenakhov, thaaaaaaat is a great story, quite enjoyable :D (given the coincidences)
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[17:31:46] <Seve> Thanks for explaining us :D
[17:31:56] <Andrew Nenakhov> U r welcome
[17:31:57] <jonas’> Andrew Nenakhov, that’s a good campfire story :)
[17:32:01] <jonas’> I like it
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[17:32:54] <Andrew Nenakhov> I actually liked the guy. So, hope he doesn't get jailed for long.
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[17:39:08] <lovetox> lol 1500 euro phone and 100 euro per month for a mobile xmpp client with otr
[17:39:25] <lovetox> daniel, i think you should rethink your business strategy
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[17:40:41] <Andrew Nenakhov> Yeah. And someone said no one can make money from XMPP
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[19:11:14] <flow> if it is expensive it has to be good, right?
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[20:08:48] <jonas’> somebody around to put https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/719 on the Board agenda?
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[21:43:40] <Maranda> 1500 euro phone? IPhone XS Max 256 :O?
[21:44:00] <Maranda> playing the guess game :P
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[21:45:55] <Maranda> Guus, I told some Meetecho fellows to contact you about a possible issue with OpenFire, and maybe that could "help 'em" stop flooding my server with s2s attempts with their things.
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[21:58:15] <Zash> Most likely a cheap android phone.
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[22:37:43] <Guus> Maranda: k
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