Monday, November 12, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[11:34:51] *** Str4tocaster has left the room
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[11:35:31] *** genofire shows as "online"
[11:35:31] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
[11:35:41] *** Str4tocaster has left the room
[11:36:52] *** Str4tocaster has joined the room
[11:37:01] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
[11:37:25] *** Zash has left the room
[11:37:54] *** thorsten has joined the room
[11:39:50] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:43:35] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:44:47] *** genofire shows as "online"
[11:45:36] *** Str4tocaster has left the room
[11:45:50] *** Str4tocaster has joined the room
[11:45:59] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
[11:46:11] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:46:52] *** Str4tocaster has left the room
[11:47:35] *** Str4tocaster has joined the room
[11:47:44] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
[11:49:31] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:49:54] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:50:31] *** Str4tocaster has left the room
[11:51:11] *** Kev shows as "online"
[11:51:27] *** Str4tocaster has joined the room
[11:51:34] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
[11:51:58] *** Str4tocaster has left the room
[11:52:09] *** waqas has joined the room
[11:53:11] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:54:39] *** Valerian has joined the room
[11:56:15] *** intosi shows as "online"
[11:57:12] *** Str4tocaster has joined the room
[11:57:22] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
[11:59:10] *** l has joined the room
[11:59:51] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:59:52] *** Zash shows as "online"
[12:00:15] *** tux shows as "online"
[12:00:28] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:00:28] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:01:56] *** ralphm has left the room
[12:02:03] *** ralphm shows as "online" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:02:03] *** ralphm shows as "online" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:02:03] *** ralphm shows as "online" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:02:03] *** ralphm shows as "online" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:02:08] *** ralphm shows as "online" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:02:08] *** ralphm shows as "online" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:03:11] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:04:24] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min) (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:05:04] *** ralphm shows as "online" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:06:29] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:08:33] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min) (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:09:14] *** ralphm shows as "online" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:19:42] *** Str4tocaster has left the room
[12:19:47] *** Str4tocaster has joined the room
[12:19:57] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
[12:20:13] *** guusdk shows as "online"
[12:20:15] *** guusdk has left the room
[12:20:59] *** Str4tocaster has left the room
[12:21:15] *** Str4tocaster has joined the room
[12:21:24] *** Str4tocaster shows as "online"
[12:22:11] *** !xsf_martin has joined the room
[12:22:44] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min) (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:22:47] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[12:22:47] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[12:22:53] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[12:22:55] *** genofire shows as "online"
[12:22:56] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[12:22:56] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[12:22:56] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[12:23:02] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[12:23:02] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[12:23:02] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[12:23:09] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[12:23:09] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[12:23:09] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[12:23:09] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[12:23:43] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[12:24:11] *** thorsten has left the room
[12:24:25] *** thorsten has joined the room
[12:28:41] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:30:33] *** matlag has left the room
[12:30:34] *** matlag shows as "online"
[12:31:06] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[12:31:10] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[12:32:45] *** l shows as "online"
[12:32:50] *** l shows as "online"
[12:33:16] *** ralphm shows as "online" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:34:28] *** Nekit has left the room
[12:34:29] *** Nekit has joined the room
[12:34:36] *** Daniel has left the room
[12:34:39] *** Daniel has joined the room
[12:35:08] *** rion shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[12:38:22] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min) (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:38:41] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:40:27] *** Nekit has left the room
[12:40:28] *** Nekit has joined the room
[12:40:43] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:40:46] *** intosi shows as "online"
[12:41:07] *** genofire shows as "online"
[12:43:57] *** ralphm shows as "online" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:46:13] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:48:13] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min) (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:49:41] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[12:50:00] *** Nekit has left the room
[12:50:01] *** Nekit has joined the room
[12:50:18] *** guusdk has joined the room
[12:52:43] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[12:55:01] *** Nekit has left the room
[12:55:01] *** Nekit has joined the room
[12:55:07] *** rion shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[12:56:13] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:56:40] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[12:57:20] *** Alex has left the room
[12:57:54] *** Str4tocaster has left the room
[13:01:15] *** waqas has left the room
[13:01:48] *** Zash has left the room
[13:02:28] *** lnj has joined the room
[13:04:13] *** dwd shows as "away"
[13:04:44] *** intosi shows as "online"
[13:06:38] *** lskdjf has left the room
[13:06:42] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[13:07:20] *** intosi shows as "online"
[13:07:21] *** genofire shows as "online"
[13:08:48] *** Valerian has left the room
[13:08:48] *** Valerian has joined the room
[13:12:56] *** Nekit has left the room
[13:12:56] *** Nekit has joined the room
[13:13:12] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:13:56] *** Zash shows as "online"
[13:14:26] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:16:45] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:18:16] *** guusdk has left the room
[13:18:17] *** Guus has left the room
[13:20:09] *** Guus has joined the room
[13:20:10] *** guusdk has joined the room
[13:21:17] *** guusdk has left the room
[13:21:17] *** guusdk has joined the room
[13:22:45] *** guusdk has left the room
[13:22:54] *** guusdk has joined the room
[13:23:19] *** Valerian has left the room
[13:23:26] *** Nekit has left the room
[13:23:27] *** Nekit has joined the room
[13:24:45] *** guusdk has left the room
[13:24:55] *** guusdk has joined the room
[13:25:35] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[13:26:45] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:28:30] *** Zash has left the room
[13:28:57] *** Nekit has left the room
[13:28:57] *** Nekit has joined the room
[13:29:19] *** daniel has left the room
[13:30:10] *** guusdk shows as "online"
[13:30:15] *** guusdk has left the room
[13:30:59] *** matlag has left the room
[13:31:18] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:31:34] *** matlag shows as "online"
[13:33:40] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:35:17] *** rion shows as "online"
[13:36:39] *** Nekit has left the room
[13:36:39] *** Nekit has joined the room
[13:38:16] *** alacer has joined the room
[13:39:52] *** Zash shows as "online"
[13:39:55] *** Zash shows as "online"
[13:40:00] *** dwd shows as "online"
[13:41:19] *** Kev shows as "away"
[13:41:33] *** j.r has left the room
[13:44:26] *** j.r has joined the room
[13:44:58] *** Nekit has left the room
[13:44:58] *** Nekit has joined the room
[13:45:00] *** Kev shows as "online"
[13:47:49] *** alacer has left the room
[13:48:16] *** alacer has joined the room
[13:48:44] *** Zash has left the room
[13:48:52] *** ta has left the room
[13:50:54] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[13:51:05] *** Nekit has left the room
[13:51:06] *** Nekit has joined the room
[13:51:17] *** genofire shows as "online"
[13:56:49] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:59:03] *** Alex has joined the room
[14:00:51] *** lnj has left the room
[14:01:10] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:01:57] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[14:02:09] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:03:50] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[14:03:55] *** !xsf_martin has left the room
[14:04:27] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[14:05:25] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[14:05:46] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:05:49] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:06:49] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:07:18] *** daniel has joined the room
[14:08:17] *** Nekit has left the room
[14:08:18] *** Nekit has joined the room
[14:08:42] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[14:08:52] *** labdsf has left the room
[14:09:01] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[14:09:19] *** Yagiza has left the room
[14:10:08] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[14:10:41] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[14:10:45] *** Alex shows as "online"
[14:10:45] *** alacer has left the room
[14:15:55] *** Nekit has left the room
[14:15:55] *** Nekit has joined the room
[14:17:46] *** labdsf has joined the room
[14:19:56] *** Nekit has left the room
[14:19:57] *** Nekit has joined the room
[14:20:14] *** Yagiza shows as "xa" and his status message is "Недоступен"
[14:20:45] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[14:21:49] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:22:27] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:22:38] *** ta has left the room
[14:28:15] *** Nekit has left the room
[14:28:16] *** Nekit has joined the room
[14:31:57] *** Nekit has left the room
[14:31:57] *** Nekit has joined the room
[14:32:10] *** krauq has left the room
[14:32:14] *** krauq has joined the room
[14:32:25] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:33:03] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:34:51] *** genofire shows as "online"
[14:36:24] *** j.r has joined the room
[14:37:19] *** Nekit has left the room
[14:37:19] *** Nekit has joined the room
[14:39:02] *** Yagiza has left the room
[14:40:45] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[14:42:34] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:42:49] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:43:21] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:45:35] *** matlag has left the room
[14:46:42] *** Nekit has left the room
[14:46:43] *** Nekit has joined the room
[14:47:34] *** Zash shows as "online"
[14:47:41] *** Zash shows as "online"
[14:49:23] *** matlag shows as "online"
[14:49:59] *** Nekit has left the room
[14:50:00] *** Nekit has joined the room
[14:52:49] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:53:03] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:53:29] *** Holger shows as "online"
[14:53:52] *** Holger has left the room
[14:55:34] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[14:55:57] *** Nekit has left the room
[14:55:58] *** Nekit has joined the room
[14:59:32] *** Holger shows as "online"
[15:01:48] *** Nekit has left the room
[15:01:49] *** Nekit has joined the room
[15:02:54] *** Holger has left the room
[15:03:01] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:05:00] *** Nekit has left the room
[15:05:00] *** Nekit has joined the room
[15:06:04] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:06:45] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:06:46] *** guusdk has left the room
[15:06:50] *** UsL has left the room
[15:06:50] *** guusdk has joined the room
[15:07:09] *** UsL has joined the room
[15:07:16] *** guusdk has left the room
[15:07:20] *** guusdk has joined the room
[15:08:27] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[15:08:28] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:08:36] *** Yagiza shows as "xa" and his status message is "Недоступен"
[15:09:13] *** guusdk shows as "online"
[15:09:16] *** guusdk has left the room
[15:10:15] *** guusdk shows as "online"
[15:10:16] *** guusdk has left the room
[15:11:46] *** guusdk has left the room
[15:11:50] *** guusdk has joined the room
[15:13:03] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[15:13:40] *** karp has joined the room
[15:13:57] *** karp shows as "online"
[15:14:12] *** Nekit has left the room
[15:14:12] *** Nekit has joined the room
[15:16:26] *** Kev shows as "away"
[15:16:51] *** mrdoctorwho has joined the room
[15:18:37] *** genofire shows as "online"
[15:18:56] *** ThibG has left the room
[15:19:04] *** ThibG has joined the room
[15:19:20] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:19:21] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:19:23] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[15:20:14] *** mrdoctorwho has left the room
[15:20:18] *** mrdoctorwho has joined the room
[15:20:31] *** lumi has joined the room
[15:20:47] *** Nekit has left the room
[15:20:48] *** Nekit has joined the room
[15:23:16] *** mrdoctorwho has left the room
[15:23:19] *** mrdoctorwho has joined the room
[15:23:25] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:24:05] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:24:20] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:26:04] *** Nekit has left the room
[15:26:05] *** Nekit has joined the room
[15:26:25] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:26:49] *** ta has joined the room
[15:27:38] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[15:32:11] *** pep. has left the room
[15:32:28] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:32:39] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[15:32:57] *** matlag has left the room
[15:33:06] *** matlag shows as "online"
[15:33:21] *** l shows as "online"
[15:33:23] *** alacer has joined the room
[15:33:56] *** Nekit has left the room
[15:33:56] *** Nekit has joined the room
[15:34:05] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:34:27] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:34:28] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:35:12] *** pep. shows as "online"
[15:36:02] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:36:14] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:37:37] *** Kev shows as "away"
[15:38:52] *** alacer has left the room
[15:39:16] *** karp has left the room
[15:39:17] *** karp has joined the room
[15:39:55] *** Nekit has left the room
[15:39:55] *** Nekit has joined the room
[15:43:06] *** Valerian has joined the room
[15:43:59] *** Nekit has left the room
[15:44:00] *** Nekit has joined the room
[15:44:41] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:52:07] *** lovetox has left the room
[15:52:13] *** Nekit has left the room
[15:52:14] *** Nekit has joined the room
[15:52:29] *** ThibG has joined the room
[15:55:08] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[15:57:57] *** Nekit has left the room
[15:57:58] *** Nekit has joined the room
[15:59:15] *** genofire shows as "online"
[16:02:34] *** Alex shows as "online"
[16:07:00] *** marc has joined the room
[16:07:00] *** Valerian has left the room
[16:07:00] *** Valerian has joined the room
[16:07:33] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:07:59] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:13:31] *** APach has left the room
[16:13:46] *** lnj has joined the room
[16:16:14] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[16:16:23] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[16:17:27] *** APach has joined the room
[16:17:57] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:17:59] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:19:27] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[16:23:20] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:26:50] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:27:21] *** cookie shows as "away"
[16:31:50] *** peter has joined the room
[16:32:02] *** Lance has joined the room
[16:32:02] *** Lance shows as "online"
[16:32:56] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:33:03] *** Lance has left the room
[16:33:22] *** efrit has joined the room
[16:34:51] *** ThibG has left the room
[16:34:57] *** ThibG has joined the room
[16:36:36] *** intosi shows as "online"
[16:38:56] *** lovetox has joined the room
[16:42:16] *** peter has left the room
[16:42:52] *** efrit has left the room
[16:43:47] *** Alex has left the room
[16:45:33] *** genofire shows as "online"
[16:46:51] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:49:49] *** marc has left the room
[16:50:42] *** marc has joined the room
[16:53:01] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:54:53] *** edhelas shows as "online"
[16:55:33] *** guusdk shows as "online"
[16:55:46] *** guusdk has left the room
[16:57:06] *** guusdk shows as "online"
[16:57:16] *** guusdk has left the room
[16:57:22] *** ralphm shows as "online" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:57:22] *** ralphm shows as "online" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:57:22] *** ralphm shows as "online" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:57:26] *** ralphm shows as "online" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:57:27] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:02:13] *** sonny has joined the room
[17:03:01] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:03:03] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:03:04] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:04:06] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[21:06:09] <fippo> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg110153.html -- I just could not resist to respond to "zoom is great" with "it uses xmpp, ya know" :-)
[21:07:20] <Zash> What's Zoom?
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[21:07:43] <fippo> zash: you live in sweden. travel to san francisco, there are buses there with ads that will tell you
[21:09:23] <MattJ> fippo, just finished (yet another) Zoom call. Had no idea it used XMPP...
[21:09:47] <MattJ> Now I don't feel bad that it does actually work pretty well
[21:10:37] <MattJ> My guess was that this is partly because they're not at the mercy of third-party (browser) WebRTC implementations
[21:11:02] <peter> The CEO of Zoom used to be my boss when Jabber Inc. was first acquired by WebEx. I guess he still remembers. ;-)
[21:11:44] <rion> Zoom's linux client is somewhat disgusting. So especially its sounds on incomming messages.
[21:14:09] <MattJ> Ha, looks like it also does Jingle-FT?
[21:14:22] <karp> rion, нука нука? Про что речь?
[21:15:13] <MattJ> Ah, looks like they possibly use gloox
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[21:15:32] <MattJ> I wonder if they're using my BOSH code :)
[21:16:26] <rion> karp: да звонилка и болталка. может очень много народу на митинг собирать. 1 на 1 тоже можно.
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[21:17:34] <karp> rion, чем лутше житси?
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[21:18:05] <rion> karp: да ничем.
[21:18:43] <karp> karp, ну тогда не интересно :)
[21:18:57] <rion> =)
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[21:23:54] <fippo> mattj: i have seen strophe in the web client samples
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[21:24:00] <fippo> where did you see gloox?
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[21:24:18] <MattJ> `strings` on the native executable
[21:24:18] <fippo> but yeah, not being at the mercy seems to be a big issue...
[21:25:04] <fippo> hrm. your binary seems different from mine. Will add to my intel-list, thanks! :-)
[21:26:18] <MattJ> fippo, https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/stdin-x1nQz82K == `strings /opt/zoom/zoom | grep -i xmpp`
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[21:43:41] <ralphm> Nice. urn:xmpp:hashes:1
[21:44:31] <ralphm> That reminds me to ask Council to revisit the recommended hash algorithms in XEP-0300. It's been over two years.
[21:45:00] <peter> :-)
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[22:32:07] <Zash> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg110060.html ... wait how long have I had DANE+XMPP deployed?
[22:32:26] <Zash> Which year did I visit IETF?
[22:32:58] <Zash> What problem are they even trying to solve there?
[22:34:34] <Zash> Why are everyone suggesting solutions to problems that are already in RFCs?
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