Wednesday, November 14, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:14:25] <jonas’> fun question: what happens when a remote entity sends me a stanza which is larger than my servers stanza size limit?
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[07:27:57] <Zash> Excellent question
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[07:32:03] <Ge0rG> It probably won't arrive
[07:32:18] <Ge0rG> Let's implement Path MTU Discovery
[07:33:09] <Ge0rG> I wouldn't be surprised if your server would close the stream as invalid, forcing the remote server to reconnect and to resend the stanza.
[07:33:26] <Ge0rG> ...ad infinitum
[07:34:44] <edhelas> then the server should delay the s2s reconnection gradually to prevent such infinite loop to happen
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[07:34:54] <jonas’> Ge0rG, sure, it won’t arrive, but what happens?
[07:35:01] <jonas’> right
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[07:40:17] <flow> jonas’, error response stanza? I don't think that this justifies a stream:error nor that current impl do that
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[07:40:38] <jonas’> flow, RFC 6120 disagrees
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[07:41:04] <jonas’> stanza size limit is one of the examples on when to use the policy-violation stream error (see 4.9.3.14. policy-violation)
[07:41:19] <jonas’> lovely example, too:

C: <message to='juliet@im.example.com' id='foo'>
<body>[ ... the-emacs-manual ... ]</body>
</message>

S: <stream:error>
<policy-violation
xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-streams'/>
<stanza-too-big xmlns='urn:xmpp:errors'/>
</stream:error>

S: </stream:stream>
[07:41:25] <jonas’> > [ ... the-emacs-manual ... ]
[07:41:51] <flow> uhh that is indeed a gem I had missed all the years
[07:41:58] <Ge0rG> Yes, the emacs manual clearly is a policy violation
[07:42:04] <flow> but still I stand by my statement
[07:42:08] <jonas’> but RFC 6120 allows both:
If a connected resource or peer server sends a stanza
that violates the upper limit, the receiving server MUST either
return a <policy-violation/> stanza error (Section 8.3.3.12),
thus allowing the sender to recover, or close the stream with a
<policy-violation/> stream error (Section 4.9.3.14).
[07:42:16] <jonas’> (see 13.12. Denial of Service)
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[07:42:27] <Zash> What do we do?
[07:45:37] <Ge0rG> Crash
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[13:42:03] <moparisthebest> hmm I didn't realize I hadn't had xmpp spam for months until I got 5 today...
[13:42:13] <moparisthebest> I suppose that is in some ways good
[13:42:39] <Zash> Classic human, doesn't know how good you have it until it gets worse
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[13:43:02] <Link Mauve> moparisthebest, there is a huge IBR registration wave which started three days ago, so it’s no wonder it’s finally getting used.
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[13:44:30] <Link Mauve> moparisthebest, please report to their server admin, domain registrar, IP provider, in this order.
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[14:49:45] <edhelas> we had a nice article from a user about OMEMO published https://fr.movim.eu/?blog/debacle%40movim.eu/things-i-don-t-like-with-omemo-as-it-is-today-ogqaAM
[14:50:07] <edhelas> I'd be happy if some of you can reply to him about the points he mentionned
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[15:25:25] <Ge0rG> I agree with those points.
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[15:26:36] <edhelas> I'm also thinking of adding xCal (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6321/) to Pubsub items, next to the Atom elements, to be able to attach events
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[15:28:08] <Link Mauve> edhelas, see https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/calendaring.html maybe.
[15:28:20] <Link Mauve> I never managed to figure out why it hadn’t been accepted.
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[15:29:42] <Zash> Hmmm, http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ don't go back that far :(
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[15:29:59] <edhelas> this is not based on the RFC 6321 (by Peter St Andre by the way) and rely on some server things
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[15:30:10] <Zash> But I recall someone saying we shouldn't try to re-do calendaring, it's a complicated problem
[15:30:41] <edhelas> also it basically define a specific calendar node
[15:30:51] <edhelas> here I just want to append events to blog publication
[15:31:08] <Zash> Sticking calendar events in PubSub seems fine enough
[15:31:19] <edhelas> like you're doing when attaching .cal file to your emails
[15:31:32] <Link Mauve> Don’t you want notifications and such rather than just a dumb storage?
[15:31:59] <Link Mauve> Have a look at how iCal servers such as Radicale are doing it.
[15:32:02] <edhelas> well if you already suscribed to the node or following the JID you'll get notified by those events
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[15:32:21] <Zash> Link Mauve: I recommend you don't if you value your sanity
[15:32:31] <Zash> iCal is very complicated
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[15:32:40] <Link Mauve> Zash, I know, I’ve worked on that in the past.
[15:32:56] <edhelas> I'll give it a try, just create a small piece of UI to set a date, title, location when publishing a post
[15:33:26] <Link Mauve> edhelas, isn’t Atom enough for this purpose?
[15:33:27] <Zash> I've researched it. CardDAV is acceptable, but CalDAV is complicated madness
[15:34:04] <edhelas> Link Mauve Atom is not made for events
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[15:36:04] <edhelas> rfc6321 looks fine to me
[15:36:25] <edhelas> and then Movim can generate .cal file out of it to import the events in the calendar applications
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[15:39:12] <Zash> hmm http://activitystrea.ms/specs/json/schema/activity-schema.html#event
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[15:40:14] <edhelas> maybe it's time to move to JSON
[15:41:53] <Zash> No
[15:42:04] <Yagiza> Not again!
[15:42:29] <Zash> Activitystreams has an Atom mapping, tho everyone's doing the JSON thing now
[15:42:55] <Zash> Anyways, there's prior art to look at
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[17:06:06] <flow> I wonder if roster annotations isn't repeating the same mistake we did with presence extensions (regarding council@)
[17:06:15] <jonas’> huh?
[17:06:23] <jonas’> how are presence extensions a mistake?
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[17:07:36] <flow> There was a time where everything stuffed into presence (tune, geoloc, …), which eventually leaded to the invention of PEP and +notify
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[17:08:39] <jonas’> right
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[17:09:11] <jonas’> what alternatives are there, though?
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[17:09:20] <jonas’> make the server put it in PEP, too?
[17:09:25] <jonas’> (instead of annotating the roster)
[17:09:30] <jonas’> (instead of annotating the roster directly)
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[17:10:44] <rion> one should remove presences from xmpp and replace them with pep =)
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[17:12:16] <flow> Possibly, maybe there are other alternatives, maybe a caps like mechanism would be sensible. I haven't given it much thought, as people already started annotating the roster
[17:12:39] <jonas’> flow, only mix annotates it, right?
[17:12:52] <jonas’> MIX also has some .. special requirements because they want to hide the MIXes from clients which don’t understand MIX
[17:13:00] <jonas’> so I don’t think that’s a good precedent in general
[17:13:16] <flow> Well I wouldn't rule it out that there are other XEPs (and ProtoXEPs) burried which also it
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[17:13:53] <jonas’> protoxeps don’t count
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[17:14:19] <flow> Help me here, MIX annotating was a <mix/> element to the roster <item/>, right? How does that help with hiding anything?
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[17:15:26] <jonas’> you only get it when you ask for it
[17:16:07] <flow> jonas’, you don't happen to have a pointer to the relevant section of the MIX spec at hand?
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[17:17:40] <jonas’> (*shaking fist at mozilla for taking away the possibility to disable ctrl+q)
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[17:19:08] <jonas’> flow, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0405.html#mix-roster-capability-sharing
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[17:20:23] <flow> jonas’, thanks :)
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[17:20:58] <flow> Hmm, what if another client of mine adds a MIX channel, does the roster push contain <channel/> or not?
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[17:21:18] <flow> Or isn't there a roster push send?
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[17:26:51] <flow> How about the server queries the client's disco#info before the first roster operation and decides based on the resulting disco#info how the roster is presented, and sends additional stanzas with the related roster item information for optional features…
[17:27:40] <jonas’> that was discussed on-list
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[17:33:12] <flow> great, or not great, because it was probably dismissed
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[17:41:49] <jjrh> I was reading XEP-0409, not sure the problem it's trying to solve. Is the idea to allow new XEPs to eventually modernize routing for IM users and have IM-NG for legacy or specific use cases (like M2M )?
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[17:49:36] <flow> jjrh, the problem is that current rfc6120/6121 routing rules are unnecessarily complex, I'd say
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[17:56:27] <jjrh> oh the part about carbons MUST NOT be enabled confused me, but I didn't read close enough - the server will reflect the message to all my IM-NG resources so i'll see my own messages.
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[18:20:16] <Ge0rG> The current rules are complex and insufficient for a reality where a user has multiple clients
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[18:21:12] <Ge0rG> But we can't just change them because it might break current use cases outside of IM, and Carbons and MAM are not sufficient because they are just hacks on top of the bad rules.
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[18:24:16] <Ge0rG> Somebody gave a talk at the February 2018 Summit about what needs fixing, and IM-NG was the resulting specification
[18:26:06] <Ge0rG> jjrh: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
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[18:37:34] <jjrh> Cool thanks
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[18:54:20] <Ge0rG> flow: sorry, but I'm being evil to you.
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[18:55:41] <Ge0rG> XEP-0359 needs to mandate that the stanza @id MUST (SHOULD) be the same as the <origin-id> @id
[18:57:22] <flow> hear hear
[18:58:27] <Ge0rG> flow: we had that discussion many months ago, and I didn't change my mind because you didn't bring up compelling arguments. Feel free to convinve me on list or just add that one sentence.
[18:59:07] <flow> I would be more interested if you envision a namespace bump or not
[19:00:33] <Ge0rG> flow: how many implementations are there? And how many don't set the two @id fields to the same value?
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[19:12:53] <pep.> Holger, "Edit: Add point about OMEMO complexity and errors, thanks to Holger!" on debacle's article re OMEMO. Should we deprecate this one now? :-°
[19:13:48] <pep.> Also, "It does not work with local, serverless messaging. I don't use this feature a lot, but still, encryption should work with it, too." too bad, because that's actually one place where it would actually be useful
[19:13:58] <pep.> I guess "it works" if you already have keys
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[19:14:10] <pep.> Just that clients don't allow that
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[21:05:45] *** Zash shows as "online"
[21:05:49] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:05:52] *** Zash shows as "online"
[21:07:30] *** remko has left the room
[21:07:30] *** SamWhited has left the room
[21:10:20] *** rion shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:15:41] *** Nekit has left the room
[21:15:42] *** Nekit has joined the room
[21:15:49] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:17:24] *** waqas has left the room
[21:17:29] *** sonny has joined the room
[21:20:20] *** rion shows as "online"
[21:20:28] *** Nekit has left the room
[21:20:28] *** Nekit has joined the room
[21:21:35] *** tux shows as "online"
[21:26:30] *** Nekit has left the room
[21:26:30] *** Nekit has joined the room
[21:29:55] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[21:32:08] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[21:32:35] *** Nekit has left the room
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[21:33:33] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[21:35:09] *** vaulor has left the room
[21:36:10] *** ralphm has left the room
[21:38:29] *** Nekit has left the room
[21:38:29] *** Nekit has joined the room
[21:42:56] *** genofire shows as "online"
[21:44:20] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[21:45:08] *** Nekit has left the room
[21:45:09] *** Nekit has joined the room
[21:45:22] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
[21:46:05] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[21:46:29] *** lovetox has left the room
[21:46:38] *** waqas has joined the room
[21:48:12] *** lnj has left the room
[21:51:14] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[21:51:31] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[21:52:08] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[21:52:09] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:52:30] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
[21:52:35] *** Alex has left the room
[21:55:04] *** Alex has joined the room
[21:55:49] *** Alex shows as "online"
[21:56:45] *** Holger has left the room
[21:59:52] *** Holger shows as "online"
[22:02:09] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:02:26] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[22:04:21] *** genofire shows as "online"
[22:07:15] *** lnj has joined the room
[22:09:21] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:10:12] *** blabla has left the room
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[22:11:57] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
[22:13:39] *** sonny has joined the room
[22:17:54] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[22:19:21] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:21:17] *** Kev shows as "online"
[22:25:46] *** genofire shows as "online"
[22:31:03] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:34:09] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
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[22:39:11] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[22:41:04] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:41:40] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[22:43:00] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[22:43:04] *** Alex shows as "online"
[22:44:04] *** rion has left the room
[22:46:50] *** rion has left the room
[22:49:51] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[22:54:03] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[22:55:55] *** Holger has left the room
[23:00:20] *** lnj has left the room
[23:01:56] *** guusdk has left the room
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[23:07:59] *** Holger shows as "online"
[23:08:40] *** genofire shows as "online"
[23:09:30] *** moparisthebest has left the room
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[23:11:10] *** sonny has joined the room
[23:13:59] *** Holger has left the room
[23:14:42] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:14:43] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[23:15:39] *** Holger shows as "online"
[23:16:22] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:18:43] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[23:19:11] *** waqas has left the room
[23:20:12] *** Kev shows as "away"
[23:22:52] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
[23:26:22] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:28:33] *** lumi shows as "online"
[23:28:43] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[23:30:15] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
[23:30:38] *** Holger has left the room
[23:35:05] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[23:36:35] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[23:36:50] *** Holger shows as "online"
[23:42:40] *** Zash shows as "online"
[23:42:43] *** Zash shows as "online"
[23:45:47] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[23:47:12] *** lumi shows as "online"
[23:50:07] *** Alex has left the room
[23:51:36] *** genofire shows as "online"
[23:52:44] *** Alex has joined the room
[23:52:56] *** Alex has left the room
[23:56:47] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"