XSF Discussion - 2018-11-16


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  103. lovetox MattJ, this does not really answer the question for what you use it, i wonder too what use case this could have
  104. lovetox maybe something like teamwork, where different people in a groupchat can add stuff to a message?
  105. lovetox something like threads ^^
  106. lovetox seems converse shows now in front of every groupchat message a green checkmark i wonder what it means
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  112. lovetox hm we could use it for omemo because right now we cant send a message AND a httpupload link
  113. lovetox this way we could send pictures with comments but encrypted
  114. lovetox daniel ^
  115. pep. lovetox: it's 0184 I think, the checkmark
  116. lovetox i dont think so, that would make absolutly no sense at all
  117. lovetox i think it means the message was reflected by the muc
  118. lovetox but instead of now seeing on *every* message a green check mark, i would have opted for seeing a red mark for the 1 in 1000 messages that is not received because the muc is down or my connection
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  123. lovetox ok they recently added 0184
  124. lovetox wow now i know one of the 100 participants of this chat received my message
  125. lovetox useful
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  128. daniel I think in groups the checkmark should be generated by the reflection
  129. daniel That's how Conversations does it
  130. daniel In 1:1 it uses 184. In groups it's reflection. Same UI to the user
  131. MattJ Makes sense
  132. lovetox didnt look through the code, lets assume they did that 🙂
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  141. Ge0rG daniel [08:07]: > In 1:1 it uses 184. In groups it's reflection. Same UI to the user Same in yaxim
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  146. jonas’ MattJ, I’m asking because somebody is attempting to use attaching for quotations
  147. jonas’ and I think that would lead to suboptimal UI if clients show the "quoting" message right below the other one
  148. jonas’ (which is however a sensible UI for attachments)
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  152. lovetox we have some other xep for quoting
  153. lovetox references or something like that
  154. jonas’ yes
  155. MattJ jonas’, I agree with you
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  157. jonas’ MattJ, tell than to them: https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/3125
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  159. MattJ :/
  160. jonas’ MattJ, tell that to them: https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/3125
  161. MattJ I think I have an outstanding diff for that XEP anyway
  162. jonas’ granted, in my original critique I forgot to mention *how* clients display it
  163. jonas’ ("out of order", which may be more grave than what sam expects)
  164. MattJ Don't have time today
  165. jonas’ ah, right
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  170. ralphm With the recent news around http/3, I was wondering if anyone here has thought about a QUIC binding for XMPP.
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  175. flow ralphm, what would the advantages be, besides "it's http"?
  176. ralphm I'm especially interested in the decrease in required roundtrips and if it behaves more efficiently in mobile networks (compared to TCP).
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  179. ralphm I'm talking about QUIC, not http/3 (which is HTTP-over-QUIC).
  180. flow but isn't http-over-quic http/3?
  181. flow ahh now I got it
  182. flow don't we have most round trips on the xmpp protocol layer? I don't see how quic would e.g. decrease the SASL roundtips. But I'm curious if there are any other advantages of using quic, but right now, I can't think of any.
  183. daniel Doesn't quic have multipath tcp basically
  184. jonas’ (because using multipath tcp directly would be too sane?)
  185. daniel So we wouldn't have to reauth after every network change
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  187. daniel > (because using multipath tcp directly would be too sane?) Nobody supports that and quic has the power of Google behind it
  188. ralphm Well, from what I understand, the initial setup, which incliudes TLS 1.3, would be a nice benefit.
  189. jonas’ daniel, yes, talking about google etc. not using existing IETF standards and rolling their own instead
  190. daniel Right. But if you can't stop them you could at least benefit from it
  191. daniel (I don't actually have any stakes or opinion in Quic or xmpp over quic)
  192. flow ahh that multipath fature sure would be nice
  193. ralphm There's a nice picture here: https://www.zdnet.com/article/http-over-quic-to-be-renamed-http3/
  194. flow also it appears that XMPP over QUIC would be for most parts trivial
  195. flow like you could replace your languages Socket object with a QuicSocket object and be done
  196. ralphm I could also see a use for in-(quic)-band file transfers, but that's indeed a bit more advanced.
  197. Ge0rG ralphm: a mobile client has too many roundtrips to count, _after_ the TLS handshake
  198. Ge0rG ralphm: I made a proposal to have the client dump all desired connection state into bind2, and let the server figure out everything
  199. flow Ge0rG, but that is only true for the intital connection
  200. ralphm Ge0rG: I know this, but the SASL-2 suggestions from dwd could help with that.
  201. ralphm So sure, there's work to be done on both fronts
  202. flow if you mostly resume your xmpp connection using quic the round trips should go down to near zero
  203. Ge0rG flow: 0198 also has a bunch of round-trips, at least the one you need to ensure whether the session got resumed
  204. flow Ge0rG, I dunno if xep198 would be that involved when using quic
  205. flow hmm it also appwars that quic is a IETF thing, at least there appears to be an IETF WG
  206. daniel > Ge0rG, I dunno if xep198 would be that involved when using quic At least the resume part
  207. daniel You'd still need the acks
  208. flow daniel, do you?
  209. flow I mean there are still nice
  210. daniel I don't think quic has acks
  211. flow but if the resumption of the stream is performed on the quic layer, without the upper layers being bothered
  212. flow hmm I though quic has stream properties, but could be wrong
  213. Ge0rG you know, TCP has got acks, and if we had sane APIs instead of Unix sockets, we could actually query the TCP ack state from the OS and not need 0198 acks.
  214. flow true, that is why I said acks are still nice, but I'm not sure if you still need xep198 resumption when using quic to handle a network switch
  215. flow I also believe that unix sockets are sane APIs and that you don't get nothing by checking the TCP ack state
  216. flow cause eventually you want application protocol acks, which tcp acks are not
  217. ralphm I guess that's the upshot of QUIC, it moves this to userland.
  218. jonas’ yes, because re-implementing decade-proven stuff in userland is always good /s
  219. ralphm yes, because re-thinking decade-proven stuff is never a viable approach.
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  221. Ge0rG it's not about re-thinking it but about working around limitations in its entrenched implementation
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  226. ralphm Indeed. I think QUIC is a very interesting development, and was just curious if it could benefit XMPP, too.
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  228. Ge0rG somebody should do a quic prototype.
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  231. daniel Ge0rG: I see what you did there
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  234. Guus Hey, my summit announcement blogpost didn't pop up in the blog. Did I mess something up?
  235. ralphm There are some interesting comments about QUIC here: https://www.codavel.com/2018/09/17/quic-vs-tcptls-and-why-quic-is-not-the-next-big-thing/. Despite the title, it seems the benefits for something like XMPP might be greater than for HTTP.
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  237. Ge0rG surprisingly, HTTP is slowly approching XMPP, protocol-wise
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  245. flow not sure if I'd call it surprisingly, but true, true
  246. Zash HTTP/2 seems an awful lot like SSH
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  252. Ge0rG And WS is a TCP socket exchanging framed messages.
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  254. Zash Mhm
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  301. ralphm Like Beep
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  328. MattJ Hmm, not sure I see the benefits of QUIC specifically
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  330. MattJ ...given in-order requirements in XMPP, and a single stream between client and server
  331. Zash Something something having two channels could be useful for large binary low-priority transfers
  332. Zash SCTP :(
  333. MattJ RTT reduction is already possible without QUIC, and changing IP is just 198
  334. jonas’ :(
  335. MattJ RIP SCTP
  336. fippo mattj: do you work at google? they seem to think that way
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  338. MattJ fippo: regarding SCTP? I tried to keep the dream alive for quite some time, but short of renaming to HTTP/4, it's never going to see sensible adoption
  339. jonas’ :(
  340. Zash MattJ: Could change IP with less overhead if MPTCP got done and deployed
  341. Zash Oh and SCTP is deployed and used! .. in WebRTC
  342. Zash SCTP over DTLS over UDP
  343. jonas’ :<
  344. fippo well, google wants to kill that
  345. fippo and usrsctp is the only usable library and has funding issues :-|
  346. fippo I think mattias wimmer (of jabberd1) once proposed s2s over sctp...
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  351. flow MattJ, I'm not sure, but QUIC could get you free instant stream resumption it appears
  352. flow and i'm not sure how xmpp's in-order requirement is related to quic
  353. MattJ QUIC's main purpose is multiplexing without head-of-line blocking. XMPP needs neither of those
  354. MattJ The other things QUIC provides can be done with TCP
  355. flow you mean "on top of TCP"
  356. MattJ Sure
  357. flow sure, but quic gives you resumption for free
  358. MattJ So instead of reimplementing TCP semantics on top of UDP
  359. flow you don't have to implement xep198 resumption
  360. Zash MPTCP would also give you that
  361. flow probably, in the end the surviver will likely be the thing with widely available libraries
  362. flow and which works in the current IP environment
  363. MattJ Which QUIC is not from a glance
  364. flow (in reality, and not on paper)
  365. Zash XMPP over HTTP over QUIQ over DTLS over UDP with ugly hacks to make it look like plain text DNS?
  366. flow quic libraries seem to be sparse, true
  367. Zash flow: Do you think we should just go along with stupid things like that or try to do it right? Because I want to do things right.
  368. flow but it doesn't appear to be unlikely that there will be some for android (and java), possibly even from google itself
  369. flow Zash, well, doing things right is usually what one should do, but I don't see how quic is doing things wrong, feel free to feed me the missing pieces
  370. Zash I haven't looked at QUIC recently, but isn't it supposed to be a transport protocol? So, running it over another transport protocol is meh
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  373. flow I don't see a point for sticking to the OSI model just for the sake of it
  374. flow it appears sensible to run such a thing over udp
  375. Zash HTTP over UDP was a thing already tho
  376. flow "it breaks layering" is never a good argument, unless it is followed by an argument why it is bad
  377. daniel Or what layers are
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  379. Guus An Ogre is like an onion...
  380. flow right now I think of quick as an TCP socket on steriods with tls, compression, automatic resumption in case of connectivity/network change
  381. flow and looking at the XEPs we have, those are propertys XMPP also wants
  382. flow it is true that XMPPs doesn't need quic's multiplexing feature, but, yah know, nobody forces you to use it
  383. flow then again, didn't we have a XEP (or ProtoXEP) which multiplexes multiple sessions over the same stream?
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  388. jonas’ for s2s
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  390. ralphm MattJ: flow, of course the number of libraries is still a bit sparse. QUIC is not even finished yet.
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  392. ralphm And to be sure, Google QUIC was taken apart to IETF QUIC (with a handful of specs) + HTTP-on-QUIC.
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  394. ralphm Some background here: https://blog.cloudflare.com/the-road-to-quic/
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  442. jonas’ Guus, I think I know what went wrong with your blog post
  443. jonas’ it went into some "drafts" folder
  444. jonas’ my suspicion is that it treated the publish timestamp as UTC, and since that was greater than the time of the build, it treated it as unpublished draft
  445. jonas’ I retriggered the build
  446. Guus ah, I didn't take notice much of the timestamp
  447. jonas’ (you can see that it went into some draft folder by searching this https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xmpp.org/builds/bgajpfwqegw7nfzcthinnui/ for the file name)
  448. jonas’ (and you can find the build by clicking the "docker|building" tag thing in the readme after a merge)
  449. Guus That's some kind of implementation that can be used to schedule posts, then?
  450. jonas’ it could, if we had automatic rebuilds
  451. Guus well, thanks for figuring that one out 🙂
  452. jonas’ you’re welcome
  453. jonas’ thanks for boarding :)
  454. Guus where are my warm nuts?
  455. jonas’ I have questions about that question
  456. Guus wait, don't answer that one.
  457. jonas’ it’s either delicious or TMI
  458. Guus I _just_ realised.
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  460. jonas’ and here I was wondering which double-entendre I could’ve missed in "thanks for boarding" which doesn’t go into the direction of airplanes or torture.
  461. Guus Ok, I'm off to pick up my kids from daycare, before I make more of a fool of myself here. 🙂
  462. jonas’ good luck!
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  464. Guus (I shall be making a fool of myself elsewhere now)
  465. jonas’ you’ll blend in
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  486. Link Mauve SCTP got some adoption as part of WebRTC, but now there are discussions about replacing it with QUIC too.
  487. jonas’ Guus, your blog post is up :)
  488. Link Mauve At the last Rustfest in Paris, there was someone working on a QUIC parser, but I don’t remember who, nor what kind of milestone they reached.
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  490. pep. Yeah I remember one guy implementing a bunch of stuff from the spec during the impl days
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  522. ralphm Link Mauve: I also found this https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-aboba-avtcore-quic-multiplexing-02, and https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-quic/
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  525. ralphm I.e. the QUIC WG actually made changes to the initial packet byte to accomodate multiplixing with RTP/STUN/etc.
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  534. Guus jonas’: tx!
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