Friday, November 16, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[06:47:19] <lovetox> MattJ, this does not really answer the question for what you use it, i wonder too what use case this could have
[06:47:53] <lovetox> maybe something like teamwork, where different people in a groupchat can add stuff to a message?
[06:47:57] <lovetox> something like threads ^^
[06:50:19] <lovetox> seems converse shows now in front of every groupchat message a green checkmark i wonder what it means
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[06:53:35] <lovetox> hm we could use it for omemo because right now we cant send a message AND a httpupload link
[06:53:56] <lovetox> this way we could send pictures with comments but encrypted
[06:54:12] <lovetox> daniel ^
[06:57:03] <pep.> lovetox: it's 0184 I think, the checkmark
[06:57:35] <lovetox> i dont think so, that would make absolutly no sense at all
[06:57:50] <lovetox> i think it means the message was reflected by the muc
[06:59:03] <lovetox> but instead of now seeing on *every* message a green check mark, i would have opted for seeing a red mark for the 1 in 1000 messages that is not received because the muc is down or my connection
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[07:03:23] <lovetox> ok they recently added 0184
[07:03:37] <lovetox> wow now i know one of the 100 participants of this chat received my message
[07:03:39] <lovetox> useful
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[07:06:42] <daniel> I think in groups the checkmark should be generated by the reflection
[07:06:53] <daniel> That's how Conversations does it
[07:07:15] <daniel> In 1:1 it uses 184. In groups it's reflection. Same UI to the user
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[07:12:26] <MattJ> Makes sense
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[07:14:10] <lovetox> didnt look through the code, lets assume they did that 🙂
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[07:43:25] <Ge0rG> daniel [08:07]:
> In 1:1 it uses 184. In groups it's reflection. Same UI to the user
Same in yaxim
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[07:49:04] <jonas’> MattJ, I’m asking because somebody is attempting to use attaching for quotations
[07:49:18] <jonas’> and I think that would lead to suboptimal UI if clients show the "quoting" message right below the other one
[07:50:10] <jonas’> (which is however a sensible UI for attachments)
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[07:59:34] <lovetox> we have some other xep for quoting
[07:59:43] <lovetox> references or something like that
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[08:06:14] <jonas’> yes
[08:06:51] <MattJ> jonas’, I agree with you
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[08:07:55] <jonas’> MattJ, tell than to them: https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/3125
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[08:09:53] <MattJ> :/
[08:10:36] <jonas’> MattJ, tell that to them: https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/3125
[08:10:51] <MattJ> I think I have an outstanding diff for that XEP anyway
[08:10:53] <jonas’> granted, in my original critique I forgot to mention *how* clients display it
[08:11:14] <jonas’> ("out of order", which may be more grave than what sam expects)
[08:11:42] <MattJ> Don't have time today
[08:11:54] <jonas’> ah, right
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[08:28:33] <ralphm> With the recent news around http/3, I was wondering if anyone here has thought about a QUIC binding for XMPP.
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[08:33:51] <flow> ralphm, what would the advantages be, besides "it's http"?
[08:35:55] <ralphm> I'm especially interested in the decrease in required roundtrips and if it behaves more efficiently in mobile networks (compared to TCP).
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[08:36:17] <ralphm> I'm talking about QUIC, not http/3 (which is HTTP-over-QUIC).
[08:36:59] <flow> but isn't http-over-quic http/3?
[08:37:19] <flow> ahh now I got it
[08:38:34] <flow> don't we have most round trips on the xmpp protocol layer? I don't see how quic would e.g. decrease the SASL roundtips. But I'm curious if there are any other advantages of using quic, but right now, I can't think of any.
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[08:39:13] <daniel> Doesn't quic have multipath tcp basically
[08:39:28] <jonas’> (because using multipath tcp directly would be too sane?)
[08:39:30] <daniel> So we wouldn't have to reauth after every network change
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[08:39:58] <daniel> > (because using multipath tcp directly would be too sane?)
Nobody supports that and quic has the power of Google behind it
[08:40:00] <ralphm> Well, from what I understand, the initial setup, which incliudes TLS 1.3, would be a nice benefit.
[08:40:22] <jonas’> daniel, yes, talking about google etc. not using existing IETF standards and rolling their own instead
[08:41:01] <daniel> Right. But if you can't stop them you could at least benefit from it
[08:41:34] <daniel> (I don't actually have any stakes or opinion in Quic or xmpp over quic)
[08:42:20] <flow> ahh that multipath fature sure would be nice
[08:42:59] <ralphm> There's a nice picture here: https://www.zdnet.com/article/http-over-quic-to-be-renamed-http3/
[08:43:11] <flow> also it appears that XMPP over QUIC would be for most parts trivial
[08:44:00] <flow> like you could replace your languages Socket object with a QuicSocket object and be done
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[08:44:16] <ralphm> I could also see a use for in-(quic)-band file transfers, but that's indeed a bit more advanced.
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[08:44:39] <Ge0rG> ralphm: a mobile client has too many roundtrips to count, _after_ the TLS handshake
[08:45:25] <Ge0rG> ralphm: I made a proposal to have the client dump all desired connection state into bind2, and let the server figure out everything
[08:45:32] <flow> Ge0rG, but that is only true for the intital connection
[08:45:32] <ralphm> Ge0rG: I know this, but the SASL-2 suggestions from dwd could help with that.
[08:45:54] <ralphm> So sure, there's work to be done on both fronts
[08:46:00] <flow> if you mostly resume your xmpp connection using quic the round trips should go down to near zero
[08:46:02] <Ge0rG> flow: 0198 also has a bunch of round-trips, at least the one you need to ensure whether the session got resumed
[08:46:25] <flow> Ge0rG, I dunno if xep198 would be that involved when using quic
[08:47:01] <flow> hmm it also appwars that quic is a IETF thing, at least there appears to be an IETF WG
[08:47:14] <daniel> > Ge0rG, I dunno if xep198 would be that involved when using quic
At least the resume part
[08:47:21] <daniel> You'd still need the acks
[08:47:30] <flow> daniel, do you?
[08:47:38] <flow> I mean there are still nice
[08:47:49] <daniel> I don't think quic has acks
[08:47:58] <flow> but if the resumption of the stream is performed on the quic layer, without the upper layers being bothered
[08:48:13] <flow> hmm I though quic has stream properties, but could be wrong
[08:48:40] <Ge0rG> you know, TCP has got acks, and if we had sane APIs instead of Unix sockets, we could actually query the TCP ack state from the OS and not need 0198 acks.
[08:49:28] <flow> true, that is why I said acks are still nice, but I'm not sure if you still need xep198 resumption when using quic to handle a network switch
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[08:50:04] <flow> I also believe that unix sockets are sane APIs and that you don't get nothing by checking the TCP ack state
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[08:50:22] <flow> cause eventually you want application protocol acks, which tcp acks are not
[08:50:49] <ralphm> I guess that's the upshot of QUIC, it moves this to userland.
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[08:54:44] <jonas’> yes, because re-implementing decade-proven stuff in userland is always good /s
[08:57:59] <ralphm> yes, because re-thinking decade-proven stuff is never a viable approach.
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[09:00:11] <Ge0rG> it's not about re-thinking it but about working around limitations in its entrenched implementation
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[09:04:24] <ralphm> Indeed. I think QUIC is a very interesting development, and was just curious if it could benefit XMPP, too.
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[09:05:07] <Ge0rG> somebody should do a quic prototype.
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[09:07:13] <daniel> Ge0rG: I see what you did there
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[09:11:04] <Guus> Hey, my summit announcement blogpost didn't pop up in the blog. Did I mess something up?
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[09:15:50] <ralphm> There are some interesting comments about QUIC here: https://www.codavel.com/2018/09/17/quic-vs-tcptls-and-why-quic-is-not-the-next-big-thing/. Despite the title, it seems the benefits for something like XMPP might be greater than for HTTP.
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[09:17:20] <Ge0rG> surprisingly, HTTP is slowly approching XMPP, protocol-wise
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[09:39:18] <flow> not sure if I'd call it surprisingly, but true, true
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[09:40:26] <Zash> HTTP/2 seems an awful lot like SSH
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[09:46:33] <Ge0rG> And WS is a TCP socket exchanging framed messages.
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[09:50:17] <Zash> Mhm
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[11:29:56] <ralphm> Like Beep
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[12:36:00] <MattJ> Hmm, not sure I see the benefits of QUIC specifically
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[12:36:48] <MattJ> ...given in-order requirements in XMPP, and a single stream between client and server
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[12:37:47] <Zash> Something something having two channels could be useful for large binary low-priority transfers
[12:38:01] <Zash> SCTP :(
[12:38:09] <MattJ> RTT reduction is already possible without QUIC, and changing IP is just 198
[12:38:09] <jonas’> :(
[12:38:17] <MattJ> RIP SCTP
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[12:42:56] <fippo> mattj: do you work at google? they seem to think that way
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[12:44:34] <MattJ> fippo: regarding SCTP? I tried to keep the dream alive for quite some time, but short of renaming to HTTP/4, it's never going to see sensible adoption
[12:44:47] <jonas’> :(
[12:45:24] <Zash> MattJ: Could change IP with less overhead if MPTCP got done and deployed
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[12:45:57] <Zash> Oh and SCTP is deployed and used! .. in WebRTC
[12:46:16] <Zash> SCTP over DTLS over UDP
[12:47:08] <jonas’> :<
[12:47:47] <fippo> well, google wants to kill that
[12:47:59] <fippo> and usrsctp is the only usable library and has funding issues :-|
[12:48:18] <fippo> I think mattias wimmer (of jabberd1) once proposed s2s over sctp...
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[12:58:19] <flow> MattJ, I'm not sure, but QUIC could get you free instant stream resumption it appears
[12:58:43] <flow> and i'm not sure how xmpp's in-order requirement is related to quic
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[12:59:41] <MattJ> QUIC's main purpose is multiplexing without head-of-line blocking. XMPP needs neither of those
[12:59:57] <MattJ> The other things QUIC provides can be done with TCP
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[13:00:14] <flow> you mean "on top of TCP"
[13:00:20] <MattJ> Sure
[13:00:34] <flow> sure, but quic gives you resumption for free
[13:00:36] <MattJ> So instead of reimplementing TCP semantics on top of UDP
[13:00:42] <flow> you don't have to implement xep198 resumption
[13:00:52] <Zash> MPTCP would also give you that
[13:01:42] <flow> probably, in the end the surviver will likely be the thing with widely available libraries
[13:02:08] <flow> and which works in the current IP environment
[13:02:29] <MattJ> Which QUIC is not from a glance
[13:02:30] <flow> (in reality, and not on paper)
[13:02:45] <Zash> XMPP over HTTP over QUIQ over DTLS over UDP with ugly hacks to make it look like plain text DNS?
[13:02:49] <flow> quic libraries seem to be sparse, true
[13:03:11] <Zash> flow: Do you think we should just go along with stupid things like that or try to do it right? Because I want to do things right.
[13:03:17] <flow> but it doesn't appear to be unlikely that there will be some for android (and java), possibly even from google itself
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[13:04:20] <flow> Zash, well, doing things right is usually what one should do, but I don't see how quic is doing things wrong, feel free to feed me the missing pieces
[13:05:32] <Zash> I haven't looked at QUIC recently, but isn't it supposed to be a transport protocol? So, running it over another transport protocol is meh
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[13:06:44] <flow> I don't see a point for sticking to the OSI model just for the sake of it
[13:06:54] <flow> it appears sensible to run such a thing over udp
[13:07:28] <Zash> HTTP over UDP was a thing already tho
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[13:07:50] <flow> "it breaks layering" is never a good argument, unless it is followed by an argument why it is bad
[13:08:05] <daniel> Or what layers are
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[13:08:39] <Guus> An Ogre is like an onion...
[13:08:59] <flow> right now I think of quick as an TCP socket on steriods with tls, compression, automatic resumption in case of connectivity/network change
[13:09:14] <flow> and looking at the XEPs we have, those are propertys XMPP also wants
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[13:10:31] <flow> it is true that XMPPs doesn't need quic's multiplexing feature, but, yah know, nobody forces you to use it
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[13:10:55] <flow> then again, didn't we have a XEP (or ProtoXEP) which multiplexes multiple sessions over the same stream?
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[13:16:26] <jonas’> for s2s
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[13:24:07] <ralphm> MattJ: flow, of course the number of libraries is still a bit sparse. QUIC is not even finished yet.
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[13:25:20] <ralphm> And to be sure, Google QUIC was taken apart to IETF QUIC (with a handful of specs) + HTTP-on-QUIC.
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[13:26:46] <ralphm> Some background here: https://blog.cloudflare.com/the-road-to-quic/
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[15:52:31] <jonas’> Guus, I think I know what went wrong with your blog post
[15:52:55] <jonas’> it went into some "drafts" folder
[15:53:14] <jonas’> my suspicion is that it treated the publish timestamp as UTC, and since that was greater than the time of the build, it treated it as unpublished draft
[15:53:17] <jonas’> I retriggered the build
[15:53:48] <Guus> ah, I didn't take notice much of the timestamp
[15:53:50] <jonas’> (you can see that it went into some draft folder by searching this https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xmpp.org/builds/bgajpfwqegw7nfzcthinnui/ for the file name)
[15:54:22] <jonas’> (and you can find the build by clicking the "docker|building" tag thing in the readme after a merge)
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[15:54:38] <Guus> That's some kind of implementation that can be used to schedule posts, then?
[15:54:47] <jonas’> it could, if we had automatic rebuilds
[15:55:22] <Guus> well, thanks for figuring that one out 🙂
[15:55:29] <jonas’> you’re welcome
[15:55:39] <jonas’> thanks for boarding :)
[15:58:26] <Guus> where are my warm nuts?
[15:58:42] <jonas’> I have questions about that question
[15:58:45] <Guus> wait, don't answer that one.
[15:58:48] <jonas’> it’s either delicious or TMI
[15:58:58] <Guus> I _just_ realised.
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[15:59:45] <jonas’> and here I was wondering which double-entendre I could’ve missed in "thanks for boarding" which doesn’t go into the direction of airplanes or torture.
[16:00:01] <Guus> Ok, I'm off to pick up my kids from daycare, before I make more of a fool of myself here. 🙂
[16:00:08] <jonas’> good luck!
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[16:00:17] <Guus> (I shall be making a fool of myself elsewhere now)
[16:00:29] <jonas’> you’ll blend in
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[16:33:23] <Link Mauve> SCTP got some adoption as part of WebRTC, but now there are discussions about replacing it with QUIC too.
[16:34:14] <jonas’> Guus, your blog post is up :)
[16:35:24] <Link Mauve> At the last Rustfest in Paris, there was someone working on a QUIC parser, but I don’t remember who, nor what kind of milestone they reached.
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[16:37:05] <pep.> Yeah I remember one guy implementing a bunch of stuff from the spec during the impl days
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[17:29:27] <ralphm> Link Mauve: I also found this https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-aboba-avtcore-quic-multiplexing-02, and https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-quic/
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[17:30:35] <ralphm> I.e. the QUIC WG actually made changes to the initial packet byte to accomodate multiplixing with RTP/STUN/etc.
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[17:52:37] <Guus> jonas’: tx!
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