Saturday, November 17, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[10:53:46] *** Alex has left the room
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[11:01:38] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
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[11:08:15] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[11:10:00] *** lnj shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
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[11:18:59] *** lnj shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[11:26:53] *** genofire shows as "online"
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[11:42:45] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[12:25:10] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[12:25:23] *** Link Mauve shows as "xa" and his status message is "At the Chaosdorf for the XMPP Sprint. o/"
[12:26:43] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
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[12:28:55] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:41:39] *** Link Mauve shows as "xa" and his status message is "At the Chaosdorf for the XMPP Sprint. o/"
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[12:50:09] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[12:51:43] *** Kev shows as "away"
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[13:00:43] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:00:58] *** Maranda has joined the room
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[13:10:15] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[13:10:20] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[13:10:30] *** Alex shows as "online"
[13:10:43] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:14:12] *** Holger has left the room
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[13:16:47] *** Zash shows as "online"
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[13:21:05] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Я отошёл от рабочего места"
[13:22:09] *** Holger shows as "online"
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[14:41:12] <Ge0rG> When doing multiple follow-up LMCs, do I reference the original message id or the follow-up message id?
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[14:42:31] <Ge0rG> > A single message may be corrected multiple times by subsequent edits.
The XEP doesn't quite tackle that explicitly
[14:42:38] <jonas’> Ge0rG, the original
[14:42:41] <Ge0rG> Aslo should a client allow both?
[14:42:56] <jonas’> IMO, no
[14:42:59] <Ge0rG> I think yaxim will overwrite the stanza ID with the correction's ID.
[14:43:10] <Ge0rG> I mean a _receiving_ client
[14:44:02] <Link Mauve> poezio does the same.
[14:45:10] <Ge0rG> so poezio will correct the last correction and not the original message?
[14:45:15] <Ge0rG> So it means I need to support both?
[14:45:30] <Link Mauve> The semantics are defined as replacing the message.
[14:45:35] <Link Mauve> This includes the id.
[14:46:04] <Ge0rG> Who promoted that shit to Draft?
[14:46:19] <jonas’> Link Mauve, only payloads though
[14:46:24] <Link Mauve> We have a linked list of older versions in the case the user wants to see a previous version, but we don’t recognise the old id as part of the discussion anymore.
[14:46:25] <jonas’> > It is expected that the receiver SHOULD then treat the new stanza as complete replacement for all the payloads received in the original stanza.
[14:46:30] <jonas’> > for all the payloads
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[14:46:35] <jonas’> the @id is arguably not payload
[14:46:36] <Link Mauve> Ugh, I guess I missed that.
[14:46:38] <pep.> Would it be possible to get stuff, fliers/stickers/stuff to put on the table to say "Here is the XMPP assembly" (that I can maybe build with stickers myself)
[14:46:42] <pep.> for the CCC
[14:47:01] <Ge0rG> pep.: SCAM team?
[14:47:07] <pep.> scam@ ?
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[14:53:05] <pep.> https://signup.c3assemblies.de/assembly/982f5ea6-fcea-4c1e-965d-8ef478149ac0 ! (wondering if others can see that)
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[16:27:31] <Ge0rG> jonas’: how does JabberCat handle that correction-of-correction?
[16:27:45] <jonas’> it doesn’t implement LMC yet
[16:27:55] <jonas’> but in my mental model I was expecting to see the original ID
[16:27:56] <Ge0rG> lovetox: which message ID does Gajim referene on a correction of a correction?
[16:28:09] <Ge0rG> Conversations also corrects the last ID and not the original one
[16:28:19] <jonas’> meh
[16:28:21] <jonas’> then we’re doomed
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[16:30:52] <Zash> Doooomed
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[16:35:39] <flow> or we could make a list of the pros and cons of the different approaches and after careful evaluation aggree on exactly one
[16:36:10] <jonas’> flow, that sounds good
[16:36:18] <jonas’> Ge0rG, would you care to take it to the list?
[16:36:31] <Ge0rG> jonas’: you are lagging
[16:36:44] <jonas’> sorry :)
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[16:37:25] <Ge0rG> I should keep a list somewhere of my questions to standards@ that never got answered
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[16:39:03] <jonas’> Ge0rG, you got an answer!
[16:39:09] <jonas’> (but the list is probably still processing it)
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[16:40:04] <flow> he said blockchain!
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[16:40:27] <jonas’> :)
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[16:41:08] <MattJ> I'm surprised it got through the spam filters
[16:41:32] <jonas’> hah
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[16:48:44] <Ge0rG> > he said blockchain!
ITYM Smart Contracts
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[17:23:51] <lovetox> Gajim corrects the last message
[17:24:07] <lovetox> i always thought its pretty clear what that means
[17:24:32] <lovetox> protocol wise the last message that was sent out by the client
[17:24:50] <lovetox> not what the user may think was the last message or what the UI shows him as last message
[17:24:55] <jonas’> that’s also a nice rationale
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[17:26:09] <lovetox> this all does not change though that the XEP allows to correct every message
[17:26:11] <lovetox> not only the last
[17:26:16] <lovetox> its just a recommendation
[17:26:44] <jonas’> requiring to correct the original @id and forgetting about the correction @id makes not-last message correction consistent though
[17:26:51] <jonas’> otherwise you can make a tree of corrections :)
[17:27:06] <jonas’> (well, you could also specify to forget the original @id and only keep the corrected one to fix that tree)
[17:27:33] <lovetox> i always thought this works good, you basically make a linked list of messages, every message references the one before with a correction
[17:27:50] <daniel> I forget the old one
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[17:28:08] <jonas’> also, lovetox, daniel, to standards@ please
[17:28:15] <jonas’> otherwise Ge0rG is sad that he doesn’t get on-list replies ;-)
[17:28:53] <daniel> lovetox: so just to be clear about. When you correct for the second time you correct the id of the previous connection not the original one?
[17:29:07] <lovetox> yes
[17:29:09] <daniel> *Previous correction
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[17:29:20] <lovetox> the last message protocol wise
[17:29:23] <Ge0rG> daniel: you are still listening, right?
[17:29:24] <lovetox> the last message i sent out
[17:29:31] <daniel> Then four clients independently made the same decision
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[17:29:34] <daniel> That seems pretty clear to me
[17:30:12] <daniel> I mean we can clear up the xep
[17:30:17] <jonas’> yes please
[17:30:20] <Ge0rG> BLOCKCHAIN!
[17:30:22] <jonas’> I would’ve implemented it differently
[17:30:40] <Ge0rG> but jonas’ is right, this implies a tree and not a list
[17:30:52] <daniel> Not if you forget the old one
[17:31:01] <daniel> Which lovetox and I are doing
[17:31:10] <Ge0rG> but if we always reference the original, this is a star topology
[17:31:20] <jonas’> flattened by timestamps
[17:31:33] <Ge0rG> daniel: "forgetting" is an important point BTW, what if you only have the last N messages, and the original is N+1
[17:31:48] <Ge0rG> and are you keeping the timestamp?
[17:32:06] <daniel> Not sure about timestamps
[17:32:09] <jonas’> Ge0rG, then you already know which IDs you can ignore :)
[17:32:18] <daniel> I think I might use the new timestamp
[17:32:23] <daniel> But I can check later
[17:32:28] <Ge0rG> in yaxim, the correction timestamp overrides the original one, moving the LMC to the bottom of the chat
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[17:33:03] <lovetox> Ge0rG, you cant know what message i want to correct
[17:33:12] <lovetox> i send you a message with a reference to an id
[17:33:15] <lovetox> and you correct that
[17:33:31] <lovetox> you have to pre prepared to get a message referencing the last message you received
[17:33:34] <daniel> Can I propose YMC again
[17:33:40] <jonas’> YMC?
[17:33:51] <daniel> Yolo message correction
[17:33:56] <daniel> Anyone can correct any message
[17:34:01] <jonas’> oh dear
[17:34:07] <Ge0rG> lovetox: I lost you.
[17:34:48] <lovetox> i dont know why you care what message i correct
[17:34:55] <lovetox> "the original" or some other message
[17:35:24] <lovetox> when implementing that i didnt spend one thought about what messge another clients wants to correct and if its a original or not
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[17:35:40] <jonas’> lovetox, the question is then how you decide what is displayed, maybe?
[17:35:43] <jonas’> I don’t konw, I can’t follow
[17:36:11] <lovetox> message comes in -> has id ref -> look is that id the last message for that client -> yes -> overwrite that message in gui
[17:36:52] <jonas’> which would break if your interpretation of what constitutes the "last message" diverged from everyone elses (which it doesn’t)
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[17:37:30] <jonas’> i.e. if everyone (except you) agreed that replacement does not create a new "last mesasge" and thus would be using @id of the original message, you wouldn’t be able to handle re-corrections at all (because your flow would discard it because it’s not hte "last message")
[17:37:43] <jonas’> and this is why it’s sensible to think about this
[17:37:47] <lovetox> correct
[17:37:50] <jonas’> you just got lucky that your intuition matched that of others :)
[17:37:53] <jonas’> (mine didn’t)
[17:38:18] <lovetox> in my opinion this is a easy to follow rule that every client can check
[17:38:25] <lovetox> the last message i received over the wire
[17:38:33] <lovetox> every other definition depends on what you do with your UI
[17:38:37] <lovetox> what you show the user
[17:38:40] <lovetox> what you do in your db
[17:38:44] <jonas’> not really
[17:38:48] <jonas’> also
[17:38:50] <jonas’> by that argument
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[17:39:01] <jonas’> do you allow corrections after you have seen Chat STate Notifications from a client?
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[17:39:12] <jonas’> or Chat Markers
[17:39:15] <jonas’> which are also messages
[17:39:23] <lovetox> thats not what i meant
[17:39:27] <jonas’> but it’s the same thing :)
[17:39:33] <lovetox> obviously we talking about stuff that has a body
[17:39:38] <jonas’> not that obvious
[17:39:57] <lovetox> my point is
[17:39:59] <jonas’> you could treat corrections as meta-message just like CSN or Markers, apply its effect (replace previous messages payload) and not include it in the "messages" array.
[17:40:05] <jonas’> it is not that obvious, is all I’m saying
[17:40:14] <lovetox> how should i know that if i reference a id that is 3 messages back, is till the last message for your client?
[17:40:14] <jonas’> dinner
[17:40:25] <jonas’> because you don’t include the corrections in your list of "messages"
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[18:03:50] <lovetox> > A single message may be corrected multiple times by subsequent edits.
[18:04:00] <lovetox> for me this is just stating that this is possible
[18:05:03] <Ge0rG> lovetox: your ML message is as ambiguous as what you write in here. I can't follow you
[18:05:31] <lovetox> what is ambiguous?
[18:06:19] <Ge0rG> lovetox: in terms of the two examples you provided to Андрей, which one is Gajim sending out, and which one of those it understands when receiving?
[18:06:57] <lovetox> that post was a question to the list
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[18:07:03] <lovetox> and not to answer your question
[18:07:20] <lovetox> see my other ML reply to answer your question
[18:07:23] <Ge0rG> lovetox: but your answer to my question also didn't answer my question
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[18:07:48] <lovetox> whats not clear about it?
[18:08:08] <lovetox> how can the "last message that is sent over the wire" be ambiguous
[18:08:09] <lovetox> ?
[18:08:34] <Ge0rG> lovetox: so you reference the id of the last correction?
[18:08:39] <Ge0rG> or rather, previous correction
[18:09:04] <lovetox> yes
[18:11:27] <lovetox> i dont see the value in the other approach, instead of just checking the last message, you would have to check all messages between the original and the last correction
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[18:11:48] <lovetox> you must check that all these messages are corrections of the original, otherwise you would have to deny the correction
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[18:14:13] <Ge0rG> how will Gajim handle a received message correcting the original ID?
[18:14:34] <lovetox> it denys all messages that dont reference the last message that was received
[18:14:55] <lovetox> deny meaning its displayed not as correction
[18:15:21] <Ge0rG> thanks
[18:15:38] <lovetox> thats my idea of it, i never put it to a test in gajim though ^^
[18:16:01] <lovetox> my idea how the code should work, and what it actually does are sometimes not the same thing
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[18:29:53] <goffi> Hello. In XEP-0198 what happen if client specify a prefered maximum resumption time ("max" attribute) and server specify an other one? I don't see the point of having 2 different values (except if the server has a default value and overwritte it by client prefered value, but nothing like that is specified).
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[18:43:22] <Holger> goffi: The client can specify a desired value, but the server decides.
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[18:51:04] <goffi> Holger: OK thanks, in this case the formulation in the XEP is bad, it states "he <enabled/> element MAY include a 'max' attribute to specify the server's preferred maximum resumption time.", it's not preferred value, it's authority value: the one which will be used.
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[19:02:55] <Holger> goffi: Revision 0.7 had this:

> the <sm/> element MUST include a 'max' attribute that specifies the longest allowable time period for session resumption (in seconds).

https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/xep-0198-0.7.html
[19:04:20] <Holger> I guess in the end it's not really interesting for clients. I guess they'll usually just try to resume as fast as possible, and they must be prepared to handle a <failed/> resumption no matter whether they're within the 'max' time period or not.
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[19:05:10] <lovetox> yeah, i dont see how this is useful for the client
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[19:51:28] <goffi> Holger: it's interesting for client to know when the session can be deleted.
[19:52:29] <goffi> I don't think it's really interesting to specify, as the server have authority anyway, but knowing when the session ends is useful, and it should be a "MUST" and not a "MAY" in my opinion (in <enabled/>).
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[19:58:42] <Holger> goffi: At least with ejabberd, the timeout for a given session can change after <enabled/>, so I'm not sure ejabberd could adhere to such a MUST clause.
[19:59:08] <goffi> Holger: how does it changes ?
[20:00:31] <Holger> The server can be configured in a way that enabling of push notifications increases the timeout drastically. And then when an actual push notification is generated, the original timeout is restored. Stuff like that.
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