Thursday, November 22, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:19:37] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is " (Assente per inattività dopo più di 5 minuti)"
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[09:14:49] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
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[12:05:17] *** Holger shows as "online"
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[12:13:52] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[12:15:04] *** Holger shows as "online"
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[14:22:38] <MattJ> Sorry, not sure I'll be able to actively participate in a meeting (if there is one today)
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[14:23:02] <nyco> there should be one... ok, thx for telling
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[14:30:18] <nyco> aaaaand... time!
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[14:31:35] <Guus> Peekaboo
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[14:31:48] <Guus> ralphm, are you here too?
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[14:32:41] <Guus> it'd be kind of a shame to let our last one slide ...
[14:33:07] <nyco> anway, we are "fired" tonight... 😉
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[14:35:05] <Guus> I'm very likely to miss tonights election meeting, sadly
[14:35:26] <nyco> I will miss it too
[14:35:54] <ralphm> I am
[14:36:10] *ralphm bangs gavel
[14:36:13] <nyco> cool
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[14:36:28] <ralphm> 0. Welcome + Agenda
[14:36:39] <ralphm> Welcome to the last meeting of this term.
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[14:36:54] <ralphm> Topics?
[14:36:59] <Guus> various, see trello
[14:37:00] <nyco> possible agenda item: clean up the Trello board for the next members 😉
[14:37:15] <Guus> I actually added a couple, primarily triggered by Jonas
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[14:38:34] <ralphm> I'll add him
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[14:39:04] <Guus> wfm, and takes care of item 1 🙂
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[14:40:35] <ralphm> Right
[14:40:51] <ralphm> Ok
[14:40:59] <ralphm> 1. Meeting with Peter
[14:41:21] <ralphm> We almost scheduled a meeting, but I then I didn't.
[14:41:42] <ralphm> If I'm reelected, I will follow up right after
[14:42:27] <Guus> If you're not, I will. If we're both not, nyco must have been, so I'm volunteering him then 😃
[14:42:39] <ralphm> Haha
[14:42:42] <nyco> not possible that two of you are not
[14:42:53] <ralphm> 2. GSoC 2019
[14:43:44] <ralphm> I think as an organisation, we'd like to participate, *when* there is somebody who'll take the lead on getting it done.
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[14:44:34] <ralphm> If there are any takers present, please let yourselves known. Otherwise, we should put out a request for it.
[14:44:36] <Guus> So, we'll first have to find a volunteer
[14:44:36] <nyco> so who "volunteers" who, this time? 😉
[14:44:55] <Guus> Kev did it before, so it'd make sense to name-drop him...
[14:44:59] <nyco> what is the workload?
[14:45:19] <Guus> nyco: it's not neglectible
[14:45:27] <nyco> I understand mostly paperwork, reminders, being organised
[14:45:40] <Guus> I think we're basically looking for someone who would be organisation admin, in gsoc terms
[14:46:09] <Guus> there's a lot to be done for that (to much to sum up here, but look at the GSOC website, there's loads of information there)
[14:46:10] <nyco> so we send a call for volunteer on the ML ?
[14:46:29] <Guus> Sounds good to me
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[14:48:18] <ralphm> 3. Summit / FOSDEM
[14:48:37] <ralphm> I have still not seen any announcement on stands
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[14:49:32] <Ge0rG> there is also a desire to do an XMPP Sprint around FOSDEM/Summit.
[14:49:52] <Ge0rG> I think daniel is involved with planning that.
[14:49:53] <nyco> isn't that too much?
[14:49:58] <nyco> oh, great then
[14:50:02] <nyco> when?
[14:50:30] <Ge0rG> wed/sat or wed/sun are *possible* options
[14:50:31] <ralphm> I think we also have access to more space this time, so we can probably do breakouts
[14:50:41] <ralphm> (at Cisco)
[14:51:00] <ralphm> anyway, that's for SCAM, not in this meeting
[14:51:00] <Guus> I'd be nice to keep the gang together during the summit, I think?
[14:51:07] <Guus> but, what he said
[14:51:12] <Guus> also, I love the idea of doing sprints
[14:51:28] <nyco> one summit to bind them all
[14:51:29] <nyco> indeed
[14:51:29] <ralphm> I don't think there's anything else to report on this
[14:51:55] <Guus> I've enquired for a Master of Ceremony, which tentatively agreed to be one.
[14:52:05] <Guus> but other than that, no, nothing to report
[14:52:14] <ralphm> 4. XEP-0001 Proposed->Experimental transition
[14:52:50] <Guus> I've read up on the request, which in itself made sense to me
[14:52:54] <ralphm> I'm +1 on this request
[14:53:03] <Guus> I was wondering if that omission was there by design though
[14:53:14] <ralphm> We can change the design
[14:53:17] <Guus> or if it is simply something that was missed
[14:53:32] <Guus> well, if it was there by design, then it must've had some reasoning behind it
[14:54:03] <ralphm> Well, fortunately the Approving Body makes the final decision on taking this new transition, so I think that's good enough.
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[14:54:41] <ralphm> Guus: well, we've changed the transitions before. It is ok, really.
[14:54:52] <Guus> I'm not saying we can't change it 🙂
[14:54:54] <ralphm> If you want additional blessing, bring it up when we talk to stpeter.
[14:55:06] <Guus> I'm just wondering why it's missing in the first place 🙂
[14:55:21] <ralphm> Probably because it didn't come up.
[14:55:35] <ralphm> (I don't recall it coming up in my 8 terms)
[14:56:12] <ralphm> nyco?
[14:56:16] <Guus> ok, I'll bring it up in the talk with Peter, for my ease of mind 🙂
[14:56:25] <ralphm> Guus: are you voting anyway?
[14:56:35] <nyco> following discussion, not disagreeing 😉
[14:56:37] <Guus> no, I'll wait for Peter's feedback.
[14:56:49] <Guus> which makes this a matter for next board... I guess?
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[14:57:14] <ralphm> Ok. Let the records note that we carry this over to (a) next meeting of the Board.
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[14:57:42] <ralphm> 5. AOB?
[14:58:08] <nyco> nope
[14:58:15] <Guus> your quick reaction to my idea of launching some kind of IOS contest, perhaps?
[14:58:19] <Guus> did you guys catch that?
[14:58:25] <nyco> what?
[14:58:42] <ralphm> ?
[14:59:22] <Guus> basically: I'm toying with an idea to have the XSF organize some kind of XPrize-style prize for development of something that we're sorely missing today, an ios-client being an obvious, but perhaps not only, choice.
[14:59:40] <Guus> this was discussed in this MUC a couple of days ago, wondered if you guys caught it.
[15:00:01] <nyco> I missed it
[15:00:04] <nyco> makes sense
[15:00:18] <Guus> the idea is to stimulate development, to make the XMPP ecosystem more complete.
[15:00:20] <nyco> I fear difficulty may appear on the money front, but to be proven
[15:00:52] <Guus> at this stage, I primarily would like to know if the idea is worth exploring, according to you
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[15:00:54] <nyco> I strongly support an attempt
[15:01:03] <ralphm> Not against the idea, but needs more detail.
[15:01:11] <Guus> k, tx
[15:01:36] <ralphm> 6. Date of Next
[15:01:40] <nyco> nope
[15:01:42] <nyco> 😉
[15:01:51] <nyco> we let "them" decide
[15:01:59] <ralphm> As a handover, I suggest holding a meeting a week from now again.
[15:02:15] <nyco> ah, ok, then I'm in, +1W
[15:02:18] <ralphm> Even if I'd not be elected, I'd still be chair, so that's ok for me to schedule :-D
[15:02:23] <Guus> one of the board candidates is from the US, which might not be up by then. 🙂
[15:02:36] <ralphm> So penciling it in.
[15:02:52] <ralphm> 7.
[15:02:54] <ralphm> Close
[15:03:07] <nyco> bye, team 😉
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[15:03:13] <ralphm> I'd like to thank everyone on the 2018/2019 Board and Council for past year's effords. Curious about the election results.
[15:03:28] <ralphm> Cheers!
[15:03:28] <Guus> likewise
[15:03:31] <nyco> yeah, merci beaucoup
[15:03:43] *ralphm bangs gavel
[15:03:48] <nyco> aaaaand, who sends the minutes?
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[15:04:11] <ralphm> nyco: I think you just volunteered.
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[15:06:15] <ralphm> Guus: a word popped up in my mind earlier today: swag.
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[15:07:40] <Guus> I'm fresh out, and meaning to order
[15:07:50] <Guus> but I only have design for stickers, I think
[15:08:09] <Guus> so, if you have more ideas/designs... by all means.
[15:08:37] <Ge0rG> I want a Jabber™ hoodie.
[15:09:34] <Guus> look, a volunteer for making a design 🙂
[15:10:00] <Guus> are we selling swag again, or just having giveaways this year?
[15:10:28] <Guus> as I think most, if not all, of our inventory has been sold in last years?
[15:10:43] <nyco> I have a preference for selling, but needs effort
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[15:11:02] <Guus> oh, yeah, maybe you guys should all sign up for joining in our wiki 🙂
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[15:11:19] <ralphm> We have no inventory left
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[15:11:30] <Ge0rG> the wiki doesn't work well on mobile.
[15:11:55] <Guus> https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/FOSDEM_2019 https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_23
[15:12:21] <Guus> hattip to Seve for creating those pages
[15:12:34] <ralphm> Ge0rG: It is highly unlikely that we will have Jabber™ hoodies made.
[15:13:07] <Guus> can we, license wise?
[15:13:07] <ralphm> There've also been requests last year to have other things than hoodies. Kev and dwd might have ideas.
[15:13:15] <ralphm> Guus: yes
[15:13:16] <moparisthebest> did memberbot go down?
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[15:13:34] <ralphm> Alex ^
[15:13:48] <ralphm> (it is up for me, I think)
[15:14:30] <Ge0rG> memberbot works for me as well
[15:14:31] <Guus> memberbot is up and responsive to me
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[15:15:40] <moparisthebest> yep working again, though I just got on gajim and it has an angry face and under construction emoji as a name has that always been there?
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[15:16:28] <Guus> haven't noticed, but that doesn't say much.
[15:16:30] <moparisthebest> for the second time it froze after I cast my first vote for board...
[15:16:52] <Ge0rG> maybe Gajim froze?
[15:16:53] <moparisthebest> maybe I'm breaking it somehow, first time I was using conversations, now gajim
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[15:19:23] <Guus> I've had zero problems with Converse, and Conversations a few elections back.
[15:20:10] <moparisthebest> neither have I
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[15:21:15] <ralphm> moparisthebest: those are User Activity and User Mood icons.
[15:21:45] <moparisthebest> does it normally have those? :)
[15:22:02] <ralphm> Well, has had them for a long time
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[15:22:53] <moparisthebest> ‎[10:15:55 AM] ‎SleekXMPP got into trouble.
[15:23:01] <moparisthebest> there finally got an error to show up in gajim
[15:23:10] <moparisthebest> that's after I cast my first vote for board
[15:23:13] <ralphm> moparisthebest: the User Mood is 'serious' and the Activity is 'working'
[15:25:13] <moparisthebest> if it resets and responds to me again I can try to capture some XML, but uh, who can check up on it? :/
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[15:29:40] <ralphm> Alex
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[16:30:58] <jonas’> moparisthebest, you can also vote in the meeting later at 19:00Z
[16:31:03] <jonas’> so if memberbot hates you for some reason...
[16:31:29] <Ge0rG> I always missed the live meetings.
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[16:40:06] <jonas’> anyone from jabber.de who sent me a subscritpion request?
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[17:03:40] <moparisthebest> jonas’: Thanksgiving in US today so will be eating then :)
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[17:04:14] <jonas’> moparisthebest, hah, right
[17:04:48] <jonas’> moparisthebest, I pinged him out-of-band, maybe that helps.
[17:05:40] <moparisthebest> I emailed my votes to him and he responded so I'm fine
[17:05:47] <jonas’> ah ok
[17:05:55] <moparisthebest> Memberbot crashing is another story :)
[17:07:30] <jonas’> woah
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[17:08:15] <jonas’> git merge silently puts a revision block added in one branch of the xeps repo below revision blocks which were added later on
[17:08:22] <jonas’> that’s... something to be aware of
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[17:45:58] <ralphm> What does that mean?
[17:46:50] <jonas’> practically, it means that editors must be extremely cautious when merging multiple branches affecting the same XEP
[17:47:06] <jonas’> example: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/945652bf33b9c98ec7b8670cad7766669a91cebf
[17:47:44] <jonas’> this should’ve been a conflict, because the original commit (which was being merged here, see <https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/cd8d05a6605ed742419a036c185ada9d174ba5fe>) added the 1.15.3 block to the top of the list (where other blocks have been added in the meantime)
[17:47:50] <jonas’> I don’t see how this is *not* a conflict
[17:48:06] <jonas’> but instead, git silently merged that by ordering the "new" revision block below the existing ones
[17:50:06] <ralphm> Well, fuzziness is always tricky. In this case it just looked at the bottom of the patch chunk
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[17:50:23] <ralphm> Found a match
[17:50:25] <jonas’> I don’t think that’s a valid thing to do in the general case
[17:50:29] <ralphm> And cleanly applied
[17:50:31] <jonas’> ignore the top part entirely
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[17:52:00] <jonas’> it’s clear what techincally happened, but I don’t think this is correct behaviour
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[17:52:33] <ralphm> So I guess there could be a script to test for such inconsistencies
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[17:52:42] <jonas’> yes, I think we might need that
[17:52:50] <ralphm> Which would let you know before the merge
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[19:00:33] <Alex> he guys, I think its member meeting time ;-)
[19:00:39] *jonas’ is here
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[19:01:08] *ralphm waves
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[19:01:15] <Zash> \o/
[19:01:46] <Alex> okay, lets kick it off
[19:02:03] *ralphm bangs the gavel for Alex
[19:02:14] <Alex> (Y)
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[19:02:31] <Alex> here is our Agenda for today:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-11-22
[19:02:52] <Alex> 1) Call for Quorum
[19:03:01] <jonas’> wait, top four candidates for board?
[19:03:04] <jonas’> why not five?
[19:03:11] <Alex> as you can see 35 members vote via proxy, memberbot and email
[19:03:29] <jonas’> > The top 4 candidates will comprise the Board for 2017-2018. There is a tie for position #5 which will be resolvde after the meeting using random selection as defined n RFC 3797.

(also the year number is off; sorry to interrupt you)
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[19:04:09] <Alex> sorry, copy and paste error ;-)
[19:04:12] <Alex> its corrected now
[19:04:25] <Alex> don't know the results yet ;-)
[19:04:31] <Alex> 2) Items Subject to a Vote
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[19:05:06] <Alex> board and council elections, you can see all the applicants here:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2018
[19:05:17] <Alex> 3) Opportunity for XSF members to Vote in the Meeting
[19:05:30] <Alex> anyone here who has not vited yet and wants to do so now?
[19:05:41] <Alex> otherwise I shutdown memberbot
[19:06:21] <Alex> 3
[19:06:24] <Alex> 2
[19:06:26] <Alex> 1
[19:06:30] <Alex> nobody
[19:06:38] <Alex> shutting down the bot and start counting
[19:07:13] <Zash> Begin drumroll!
[19:07:23] <ralphm> Drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
[19:07:36] <Guus> Rollllll
[19:07:41] <ralphm> rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
[19:07:52] <ralphm> rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
[19:08:01] <ralphm> rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
[19:08:07] <waqas> umm
[19:08:08] <Guus> Now you're just purring...
[19:08:18] <ralphm> It's a roll people.
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[19:10:30] <ralphm> rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
[19:10:31] <Ge0rG> A people roll?
[19:10:46] <Ge0rG> I'm so excited!
[19:10:49] <Alex> 4) Announcement of Voting Results
[19:11:03] <Alex> when you reload the page you can see the results:
[19:11:06] <Alex> https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-11-22#Announcement_of_Voting_Results
[19:11:09] <ralphm> https://upload.ik.nu/upload/sWP4vkMui9-SV4PJ/3dob7HDPRR-q_18Bl63t-g.jpg
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[19:11:55] <jonas’> congrats to the (other) elected folks :)
[19:12:14] <Zash> Grats
[19:12:17] <Alex> Top 5 board:
Ralph Meijer
Matthew Wild
Guus der Kinderen
Severino Ferrer de la Peñita
Nicolas Vérité
[19:12:30] <ralphm> 🎉
[19:12:44] <Alex> and council is easy this time ;-)
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[19:12:47] <Alex> Dave Cridland
Georg Lukas
Emmanuel Gil Peyrot
Kevin Smith
Jonas Schäfer
[19:12:56] <ralphm> 🎉
[19:13:03] <Ge0rG> 😍
[19:13:05] <jonas’> 🎉
[19:13:14] <Alex> congrats to everyone, and thank for applying
[19:13:19] <Ge0rG> 🥂
[19:13:25] <Ge0rG> Thanks Alex
[19:13:25] <ralphm> Thanks Alex!
[19:13:26] <jonas’> Alex, thanks for chairing this meeting and doing all the work :-)
[19:13:50] <Alex> you#re welcome
[19:13:58] <Alex> 5) Any other Business?
[19:14:09] <j.r> Georg Lukas is this a bad joke?
[19:14:22] <jonas’> j.r, no, that’s Ge0rG’s full legal name AFAIK
[19:14:30] <jonas’> j.r, that’s Ge0rG’s full legal name AFAIK
[19:14:36] <jonas’> (that doesn’t preclude that it’s a bad joke made by his parents though)
[19:14:41] <Ge0rG> My legal name is a bad joke. Yay.
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[19:14:58] <Ge0rG> jonas’: the opinions vary on that.
[19:15:03] <jonas’> I like it :)
[19:15:08] <ralphm> Alex: I think we're good.
[19:15:13] <Alex> 6) Formal Adjournment
[19:15:18] <j.r> Ge0rG: Not so bad at all
[19:15:21] <Alex> I motion that we adjourn
[19:15:27] <jonas’> fine with me, Alex
[19:15:30] *ralphm bangs gavel
[19:15:46] <Alex> thanks (Y)
[19:15:49] <Guus> Thanks Alex!
[19:15:52] <jonas’> \o/
[19:15:58] <Ge0rG> How many members do we have, by the way? Isn't membership election due soon?
[19:16:01] <Zash> Thanks Alex
[19:16:02] <jonas’> Ge0rG, 49
[19:16:10] <jonas’> > The XSF has 49 elected members as of this date.
[19:16:12] <jonas’> (quoting the minutes)
[19:16:22] <jonas’> Ge0rG, and, yes: The XSF has 49 elected members as of this date.
[19:16:27] <jonas’> Ge0rG, and, yes: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2018
[19:16:41] <Ge0rG> So 71% participation in the vote, that's great.
[19:16:44] <Alex> December 2nd
[19:16:50] <Alex> will send out some reminders soon
[19:16:57] <Ge0rG> Somehow I anticipated us being larger
[19:17:11] <jonas’> somehow I anticipated the participation to be worse
[19:17:13] <ralphm> FWIW: I was actually sitting behind my drums (picture) and have a gavel and gong.
[19:17:23] <Alex> looked at the records today, many members did not reapply in the last 12 month
[19:17:25] <jonas’> ralphm, next time I expect a livestream.
[19:17:30] <ralphm> https://upload.ik.nu/upload/893VhXpFBrmNbaaf/GrnORgQQT8egDKItfT2V1w.jpg
[19:17:38] <jonas’> :)
[19:17:42] <Zash> Nice
[19:18:46] <Ge0rG> ralphm: so you are making a *badumtss* on every bad joke?
[19:19:51] <ralphm> Yes
[19:20:21] <Ge0rG> Like when somebody mentions my full name? 😢
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[19:36:53] <ralphm> Nah
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[21:58:47] <daniel> I’m starting the thing that an xml notation for message styling / markup wouldn’t be the worst idea. but i don’t want the full feature set of xhtml-im. It can borrow html5 vocabulary but i want the feature set to be limited to something that message styling and message markup offer. so probably something like <strong>, <em>, <pre>
[21:58:55] <daniel> *think
[21:59:17] <jonas’> this is going to re-invent the XHTML-IM wheel.
[22:00:00] <daniel> maybe. but if it is limited to 5 elements w/o any attributes people might not attempt to reuse browser renderers
[22:00:15] <jonas’> people will always attempt stupid things
[22:00:40] <daniel> xhml is just soo complicated. i don’t think anyone but Link Mauve ever wrote a renderer for it
[22:00:51] <daniel> and that one probably isn’t even complete
[22:01:00] <jonas’> how about re-defining the XHTML subset used by XHTML-IM?
[22:01:57] <Zash> Didn't it have profiles already?
[22:02:19] <jonas’> it used XHTML profiles I think
[22:02:31] <daniel> i mean it has freaking css in it
[22:02:40] <Link Mauve> daniel, uh, a lot of people have.
[22:02:49] <Link Mauve> There are in all of the 2000s clients.
[22:03:00] <jonas’> libpurple probably has one with an RCE even.
[22:03:19] <Link Mauve> And the CSS parts it has are very small, nothing like CSS level 2.
[22:03:41] <daniel> putting css in there breaks with the whole let's use xml idea
[22:03:52] <jonas’> ah, yes
[22:03:52] <Link Mauve> It’s also optional.
[22:03:53] <daniel> it doesn’t make sense to use css
[22:03:54] <Zash> strip the CSS then
[22:03:56] <jonas’> that’s a good point
[22:04:13] <jonas’> more like 90ies HTML with stuff like <font color="xyz"/>
[22:04:14] <Zash> The mod_xhtml I made for Prosody can do that
[22:04:28] <Zash> jonas’: Like how SVG works now? :)
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[22:04:37] <Link Mauve> “23:02:20 jonas’> it used XHTML profiles I think”, no, it defines profiles of XHTML, which is very different.
[22:04:44] <jonas’> Link Mauve, ah right
[22:04:45] <daniel> also if it is called xhtml-*IM* why does it have shit like headline
[22:04:49] <jonas’> Zash, pretty much
[22:04:52] <daniel> i understand the use for blogs and stuff
[22:04:54] <daniel> but IM?
[22:05:00] <jonas’> daniel, rich text bots
[22:05:00] <Zash> daniel: Throw it out!
[22:05:05] <daniel> who’s going to put headlines in messages
[22:05:09] <Zash> µblogging
[22:05:14] <jonas’> daniel, one of the reasons the company I work for swtiched away from XMPP was that they wanted fancy alert messages
[22:05:22] <Zash> daniel: People write forum posts in messages sometimes
[22:05:29] <jonas’> ... but clients lacked proper support for that
[22:05:42] <jonas’> or maybe I should’ve tried more
[22:05:43] <Link Mauve> daniel, again, nothing forces you to implement the entire list of profiles defined in XHTML-IM.
[22:05:45] <jonas’> whatever
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[22:06:03] <Link Mauve> Nothing will break if you don’t render a <h1/> a bit bigger than normal text.
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[22:07:58] <ralphm> I think the biggest concern with XHTML-IM is that people just throw it at their favorite HTML renderer, opening up all kinds of security issues. No matter what subset.
[22:08:08] <Zash> jonas’: I'm not sure fancy notifications should require all of XHTML. Eg Slack doesn't do that .. does it?
[22:08:21] <Zash> Fancier than plain text messages, sure
[22:08:25] <Link Mauve> ralphm, people will do that, no matter what the input format.
[22:08:37] <Link Mauve> I’ve seen more RCE using User Nickname in the wild.
[22:08:57] <Link Mauve> Simply because “it’s a nickname, so plain text, what could possibly happen if I use innerHTML?”
[22:09:02] <jonas’> Zash, I’ve seen headings and other markdown-like formatting
[22:09:17] <jonas’> ralphm, we had that discussion for a month or so a year back
[22:09:25] <ralphm> As for what Slack does, I think that's mostly XEP-393.
[22:09:36] <ralphm> I know this
[22:09:44] <ralphm> I didn't restart it today
[22:10:40] <Zash> jonas’: `<subject>` :)
[22:10:46] <jonas’> Zash, subheadings
[22:10:57] <Zash> jonas’: nyeh
[22:11:26] <Link Mauve> Headings used to make more sense with the email-like UI of normal messages in the likes of Psi and Gajim.
[22:11:38] <daniel> well i like 0393 as an input format and i think it is enough for a feature set
[22:11:41] <Link Mauve> Where you may have wanted full formatting.
[22:11:47] <jonas’> daniel, I agree with you for non-automated beings :)
[22:11:54] <jonas’> daniel, I agree with you for non-automated beings in the IM use-case :)
[22:11:54] <Link Mauve> daniel, yup, no issue with that.
[22:11:54] <ralphm> daniel: indeed
[22:11:55] <daniel> but I think it might make sense to transmit the feature set of 393 as xml
[22:12:07] <ralphm> Why?
[22:12:32] <Link Mauve> ralphm, interoperability with other input markups.
[22:12:33] <jonas’> daniel, tbh, I’d prefer if we could re-vive XHTML-IM instead of inventing our own vocabulary.
[22:12:53] <daniel> ralphm, by transfering the input format you can never really remove the formatting because the client doesn’t know if it is formatting
[22:12:56] <jonas’> (and define a subset which is equivalent to 393)
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[22:13:09] <daniel> parsing the input format to xml and using that could solve that
[22:13:13] <jonas’> also, this is what I told you folks a year ago already >.>
[22:13:51] <jonas’> if we’re going to define our own vocabulary, people will still come up with unsafe hacks to put it into an XHTML renderer directly
[22:13:59] <daniel> jonas’, well the vocabulary i suggested was html5 which for those cases should be the same as xhtml
[22:14:05] <jonas’> indeed
[22:14:29] <Zash> The un-safety was always in having a renderer that also executes arbitrary code, not the wire format.
[22:14:48] <daniel> well i can get on board with an xhtml-im-light that is limited to what 0393 can input
[22:14:55] <ralphm> So what Slack *actually* does, I think, is parsing the plaintext server side as per 393, and then send a marked up message back, including references.
[22:15:03] <Link Mauve> daniel, XHTML-IM is already that, tbh.
[22:15:04] <daniel> if you want to do that in the same xep or not i don’t care
[22:15:19] <Link Mauve> Except it doesn’t have disco#info features telling others what you actually do support.
[22:16:19] <ralphm> That's why Flow came up with https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/bmh.html, no?
[22:17:05] <Link Mauve> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0071.html#profile-summary the current recommended set is a bit bigger than what you suggest, but I don’t see much to remove from it.
[22:17:24] <jonas’> Link Mauve, for starters, @style should go out of the window.
[22:17:27] <Link Mauve> It mostly just adds lists, images, links and CSS.
[22:17:36] <Link Mauve> Oh, and quotes.
[22:17:43] <jonas’> (393 has quotes)
[22:17:52] <jonas’> that profile lacks code though
[22:18:05] <Link Mauve> Indeed, that would be an useful addition.
[22:18:13] <Link Mauve> Indeed, that would be a useful addition.
[22:18:17] <jonas’> now, if we had namespaced attributes...
[22:18:32] <Link Mauve> There is one, just in this list. :p
[22:18:37] <jonas’> (thinking of stuff like <code xhtml-im:language="c"/>)
[22:18:41] <jonas’> yeah, xml:lang doesn’t count
[22:18:59] <Link Mauve> I’ve used a @class hack for that in the past.
[22:19:02] <ralphm> I'd like bold, italic, strike, literal inline, literal block, bullet list and quotes.
[22:19:32] <Link Mauve> Strike requires CSS if we keep it to XHTML-IM.
[22:19:40] <Zash> ralphm: "literal inline" ?
[22:19:45] <ralphm> No color, I think, no font choices, so I guess no css.
[22:20:02] <ralphm> Yes, like `this`.
[22:20:19] <Zash> ralphm: So <code>-ish?
[22:20:20] <jonas’> Link Mauve, <del/>?
[22:20:21] <Link Mauve> Isn’t that <code/>?
[22:20:38] <ralphm> Versus: ```
Block of literal.
```.
[22:20:43] <Link Mauve> jonas’, oh, indeed.
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[22:20:50] <Link Mauve> ralphm, <pre><code/></pre>.
[22:20:59] <jonas’> Link Mauve, although I’m not 100% convinced that <del/> has the right s emantics
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[22:21:29] <Alex> we need a markdown extension ;-)
[22:21:38] <Link Mauve> “The HTML <del> element represents a range of text that has been deleted from a document. This can be used when rendering "track changes" or source code diff information, for example.”
[22:21:47] <ralphm> Yeah, one block, one inline. That's the HTML terminology.
[22:21:58] <Zash> Alex: Bother your client about markdown to xhtml-im support? :)
[22:22:10] <Link Mauve> Alex, no, we need to allow clients to use Markdown as an input format, and transmit it in some standard way (*hint* XHTML-IM) over the wire.
[22:22:28] <Zash> <code xml:lang="c">int main (void) { }</code> mouhahhaaha
[22:22:34] <jonas’> Zash, that hurt me a little.
[22:22:50] <ralphm> Markdown is like RSS. There are many dialects and bad interop.
[22:22:50] <Link Mauve> That’s something which can’t be done using XEP-0393 due to incompatibilities in the markup used.
[22:23:09] <ralphm> That's why Slack says they don't support it.
[22:23:12] <Link Mauve> ralphm, hence why clients should be able to pick the one they like, and convert it to XHTML-IM.
[22:23:15] <Alex> what I do not like in HTML-IM is that you need to validate for allowed tags and scripts
[22:23:17] <jonas’> fun fact: with namespaced attributes we could get references right
[22:23:18] <Zash> jonas’: We need to get computer languages their own language tags!
[22:23:24] <Alex> otherwise clients are volnerable
[22:23:37] <ralphm> Alex: you need to validate any format
[22:23:44] <Link Mauve> Alex, no, you need to pick a subset and convert it to whichever rendering library you’re using.
[22:23:44] <Zash> Alex: And you are aware that Markdown allows HTML pass-through?
[22:23:56] <Link Mauve> That’s very different from validation.
[22:24:00] <jonas’> Alex, not really. only if you pass the XHTML-IM 1:1 to the (code executing) renderer. If you did what you would do for any other format (parse and re-emit as HTML), it would be fine.
[22:24:05] <ralphm> Zash: and that
[22:24:15] <Link Mauve> jonas’, let’s just use namespaced attributes, and see what breaks!
[22:24:31] <Link Mauve> I’d bet on not much, if anything.
[22:25:04] <Zash> The real problem is the distinct lackof a renderer without mandatory JS support and remote content fetching
[22:25:10] <jonas’> (thinking of <body xmlns="xhtml" xmlns:xhtml-im="..."><span xhtml-im:id="abc">@Link Mauve</span></body><references><ref id="abc"><jid>linkmauve@...</jid></ref></references>)
[22:25:51] <jonas’> although that could probably also be solved with some href actually
[22:26:02] <jonas’> but you get the idea
[22:26:07] <jonas’> (same for blockquotes for example)
[22:26:15] <Link Mauve> jonas’, looks very nice, but @id already exists in XHTML, we could just add it to the profile.
[22:26:27] <jonas’> Link Mauve, @id is even in XML and has some semantics I’m afraid
[22:26:47] <Link Mauve> @xml:id is different from @xhtml:id in semantics.
[22:27:08] <Link Mauve> Here, you create a new XHTML document in each message (possibly more than one even, with @xml:lang).
[22:27:13] <jonas’> right
[22:27:17] <jonas’> that could actually work
[22:27:27] <Link Mauve> So you could perfectly use @xhtml:id.
[22:27:28] <jonas’> and the @xhtml:id needs to be unique anyways for references to work... or does it?
[22:27:46] <Link Mauve> Let’s keep it simple. :)
[22:27:48] <jonas’> ok :)
[22:28:06] <Alex> which client are you working on?
[22:29:07] <Link Mauve> Personally, at the moment mostly Converse (when I’ll stop being ill), but I don’t have a fixed client to work on, I just do what I feel is useful.
[22:30:21] <Zash> I should submit the XEP for the thing I did with JabberCat at some point
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[22:39:48] <jonas’> alright, heading to bed, tele-type to you later ;-)
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[22:41:31] <Link Mauve> Zash, what did you do?
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[22:41:59] <Zash> Link Mauve: BUTTON!
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[22:45:28] <Link Mauve> !
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