Thursday, November 29, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[06:58:54] <Seve> Ge0rG, do you have somewhere where I could link to the new yaxim version?
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[07:07:04] <Ge0rG> Seve: yax.im/apk
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[07:11:56] <Seve> Ge0rG, 0.9.3 is it, right?
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[07:15:56] <Ge0rG> Seve: that Version is also on Google and f-droid
[07:16:14] <Ge0rG> The link is to latest nightly
[07:16:47] <Seve> Ge0rG, just talking about the newsletter
[07:16:52] <Seve> what should I link to?
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[07:24:46] <Ge0rG> Seve: Google play, unless I manage to write a blog post until tomorrow
[07:25:15] <Seve> ok Ge0rG :)
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[07:31:02] <Ge0rG> Seve: I suppose the download links can go in anyway: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.yaxim.androidclient and https://f-droid.org/packages/org.yaxim.androidclient/ for the cryptowh^H^Hnerds
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[11:26:49] <daniel> Is anyone working on either open source server side MIX implementations or willing to give me (and potentially other client developers) access to a (closed source) server that has MIX?
[11:27:21] <Kev> As soon as we've got something sharable, I'd be happy to run up something pokable on the 'net, but we haven't at the moment.
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[11:28:47] <daniel> Thanks. That could really help out with the chicken and egg problem the open source jabber community has with MIX
[11:29:44] <Kev> Indeed.
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[11:52:28] <jonas’> did new board agree on a meeting time, by the way?
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[12:21:49] <ralphm> No, I informed them it is today at 15:30 CET.
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[13:07:26] <daniel> has anyone ever looked into compiling xep into mobi/epub
[13:07:44] <daniel> not kidding. but MIX is long enough that reading it on my kindle would be kinda cool
[13:07:46] <Ge0rG> IIRC Zash had some ideas around that, but nothing finished.
[13:07:49] <Zash> I have
[13:08:08] <Zash> Finished to the point of "works for me"
[13:08:39] <Ge0rG> As finished as the color-coded XEP diff txt renderer?
[13:08:40] <Zash> Would be neat to get that into the build process, along with PDF generation and whatnot
[13:08:58] <Ge0rG> 👍
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[13:09:25] <Zash> Ge0rG: diffs are related but slightly different
[13:09:27] <Ge0rG> But with the XEP build process fetching a new machine image each time, it would delay things even more.
[13:09:30] <ralphm> There's already PDF generation, no?
[13:09:50] <Ge0rG> ralphm: PDF is the worst source for epub/mobi
[13:09:52] <daniel> Zash, care to share your xep to epub scripts?
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[13:10:22] <daniel> can mobi/epub switch to monospace?
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[13:10:34] <daniel> i have never looked into the format
[13:10:41] <Ge0rG> AFAIU mobi/epub is a kind of XHTML subset.
[13:10:49] <Zash> epub is a zip file with html in it
[13:11:15] <Zash> The stuff I have produces markdown and then uses pandoc to build epubs from that
[13:11:46] <Ge0rG> https://stackoverflow.com/a/21626850/539443 for html->epub with pandoc
[13:12:14] <Ge0rG> calibre is probably a rather heavy dependency
[13:12:43] <daniel> yeah but i need that anyway for the mobi conversion
[13:12:56] <daniel> or at least i have not figured out another way to feed my kindle
[13:13:03] <Ge0rG> daniel: but it might be bad to include it into the official build system
[13:13:05] <daniel> tipps are welcome though
[13:13:19] <Ge0rG> pandoc is slim in comparison
[13:13:21] <Zash> You could try `pandoc xep-xxxx.html -o xep-xxxx.epub`
[13:13:48] <daniel> i guess i'll try that
[13:13:49] <Zash> daniel: https://gist.github.com/Zash/372591d4c61b6af70d810a78bd1af12d
[13:13:59] <Zash> There's the xep -> markdown thing
[13:14:12] <Ge0rG> pandoc: Prelude.read: no parse
[13:14:23] <Zash> and then `pandoc xep-blah.md -o xep-blah.epub`
[13:15:16] <Zash> input needs to have its entities expanded, so https://gist.github.com/Zash/372591d4c61b6af70d810a78bd1af12d#file-xep2md-sh
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[13:17:17] <Ge0rG> daniel: `ebook-convert build/xep-0045.html build/xep-0045.epub` WFM
[13:18:25] <Link Mauve> “14:10:54 Zash> epub is a zip file with html in it”, s/html/xhtml/, and a bunch of metadata files, in a specific directory structure.
[13:18:37] <Zash> Sure
[13:19:16] <Ge0rG> https://upload.yax.im/upload/zbeZLsvL8FuA2rNA/Screenshot_20181129-141906_FBReader.jpg
[13:19:17] <Zash> Link Mauve: Except I've managed to produce unbalanced tags and my eink thing still showed it (horribly messed up, but still)
[13:19:21] <Ge0rG> it even has nifty titles
[13:19:31] <Zash> Pretty
[13:19:35] <Ge0rG> (btw, does the OOB in my screenshot work for Conversations?)
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[13:21:02] <daniel> oh indeed it works reasonably well
[13:21:23] <Zash> daniel: You might even be able to just dump the html files onto the device and have it work
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[13:21:52] <Ge0rG> my ebook reader has a horrible html reader (it's using continuous scrolling on e-paper)
[13:21:56] <Zash> ew
[13:22:00] <daniel> yeah at least my calibre which i need anyway. will take html files directly
[13:22:20] <Ge0rG> but it's the only way to render the 110GB+ of offline wikipedias I have
[13:22:28] <daniel> https://share.gultsch.de/daniel/RyGBwEl1OMN8SAin/rJG-_bTCTo-zf9nSzcInLA.jpg
[13:22:51] <daniel> Ge0rG: the oob in your Screenshot doesn't work at all
[13:23:10] <daniel> if you give me the stanza i can take a look at it
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[13:24:12] <Ge0rG> <message from="xsf@muc.xmpp.org/Ge0rG" id="0wTCJ-8706" type="groupchat" to="georg@yax.im/poezio-IS8H"><body>https://upload.yax.im/upload/zbeZLsvL8FuA2rNA/Screenshot_20181129-141906_FBReader.jpg</body><x xmlns="jabber❌oob" url="https://upload.yax.im/upload/zbeZLsvL8FuA2rNA/Screenshot_20181129-141906_FBReader.jpg" /></message>
[13:24:22] <Ge0rG> just figured out it's @url instead of <url>
[13:24:39] <Ge0rG> I messed up the Oob.java when porting from smack3 to smack4
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[13:27:27] <Ge0rG> what I don't understand is why it can interpret the wrong tag correctly
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[13:30:39] <Zash> https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/yJNDBPRli6rRIacj/Z0dyALtQTdOr1y3wm66s_w.jpg
[13:32:30] <daniel> Zash: is this straight conversion or via your markdown thing?
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[13:34:14] <Zash> Ge0rG, daniel: How does it handle tables and examples?
[13:34:23] <Zash> daniel: via the markdown thing
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[13:35:27] <Ge0rG> Zash: dunno
[13:37:07] <Zash> .
[13:37:42] <Zash> L A G
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[14:02:50] <dwd> Does anyone happen to know if anyone's reverse-engineered WhatsApp recently?
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[14:06:22] <daniel> dwd: to you have reason to believe they changed it?
[14:06:52] <dwd> No... I suppose "recently" doesn't really matter.
[14:07:39] <daniel> Well the so called funxmpp is decently documented as far as I know
[14:08:10] <daniel> And WhatsApp transports / pidgin plugins used to work okish
[14:08:54] <Link Mauve> Aren’t they using the web API instead of talking the protocol itself?
[14:09:06] <Link Mauve> The web API which connects to your phone.
[14:09:18] <Link Mauve> Which is AFAIK how they implement multi-resources.
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[14:10:26] <Zash> Including multi-resource E2EE?
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[14:12:44] <Link Mauve> AFAIK it’s decrypted on your phone, then sent to your browser somehow.
[14:13:13] <Kev> E2SITME
[14:13:21] <Kev> End to Somewhere In The Middle Encryption :)
[14:13:24] <daniel> Link Mauve: I think there are/were transports that would talk directly to wa
[14:13:41] <Link Mauve> I may be wrong then.
[14:13:43] <daniel> Without the requirement to run it on your phone
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[14:14:11] <Link Mauve> The requirement was that your phone had to be on.
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[14:21:56] <MattJ> They are pretty aggressive at banning anyone who uses unofficial clients afaik
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[14:29:50] *** ralphm changed the title to "XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings"
[14:30:00] *ralphm bangs gavel
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[14:30:08] <ralphm> 0. Welcome + Agenda
[14:30:33] <ralphm> Who do we have?
[14:30:53] <ralphm> Seve, nyco, MattJ, Guus
[14:30:59] <Seve> Seve is here :)
[14:30:59] <MattJ> o/
[14:31:16] <nyco> hey
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[14:31:37] <ralphm> Guus sent regrets
[14:31:56] <ralphm> So we can start
[14:32:17] <ralphm> My first point would be electing our Chair
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[14:32:24] <dwd> I, too, am here. Not entirely sure if I am Council Chair, technically, at the moment though. :-)
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[14:32:33] <ralphm> Thank you dwd
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[14:32:55] <Guus> did I sent regrets?
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[14:33:06] <Guus> I'm pretty sure I did not 🙂
[14:33:06] <ralphm> oh, hah, I messed up
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[14:33:11] <dwd> Guus, If so, do you regret it now?
[14:33:11] <ralphm> It was a mail from June :-D
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[14:33:38] <Guus> Thank you for promptly processing my mail 🙂
[14:33:39] <ralphm> Full house. Great
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[14:33:49] <ralphm> Guus: I still have unreads from 2016
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[14:34:09] <ralphm> 1. Election of the Chair of the Board
[14:34:15] <nyco> technically, it is thus not wrong, Guus sent regrets, just not for this meeting
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[14:34:27] <ralphm> For this we need nominations and then votes
[14:35:21] <ralphm> :crickets:
[14:35:31] <dwd> I'm assuming self-nominations are fine, if people want to volunteer?
[14:35:57] <ralphm> I'd be happy to continue.
[14:36:14] <MattJ> Well, without an idea of who wants to be nominated, it's a bit awkward :)
[14:36:19] <MattJ> I'd be happy for ralphm to continue
[14:36:31] <Guus> +1
[14:36:43] <Seve> Me as well, +1 for ralphm :) And also thanks for volunteering
[14:36:52] <nyco> +1
[14:37:01] <ralphm> Thank you!
[14:37:01] <dwd> Well, this is a bit boring. :-)
[14:37:17] <ralphm> dwd: you can always cast an invalid vote
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[14:37:28] <dwd> -1! I VETO!!!
[14:37:42] <Guus> chair, I think an invalid vote was just cast.
[14:37:46] <ralphm> Let the records show that the Board has elected Ralph Meijer as Chair of the Board for the 2018/2019 term.
[14:38:19] <ralphm> Speaking of which:
[14:38:23] <ralphm> 2. Minutes
[14:38:23] <MattJ> Heh
[14:38:40] <Guus> I do nominate dwd, since we're in the process of nominating people anyways... 🙂
[14:38:54] <ralphm> Last term, we had a hard time getting minutes consistently. I'd like to ask for a volunteer to create minutes for all meetings.
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[14:39:09] <ralphm> Guus: I second that
[14:40:12] <nyco> I raise this: it would be nice to edit collaboratively and in real-time our notes while we have the meeting
thus at the end, it is just a matter of finalising (typo, punctuation, etc) and send to ML
[14:40:31] <nyco> it works if not only one person types
[14:40:37] <nyco> it is hareder when 5 people type
[14:40:43] <nyco> it is harder when 5 people type
[14:40:43] <MattJ> I wouldn't be opposed to that
[14:40:56] <dwd> I'm doubtful I can reliably do minutes, but I can volunteer from time to time.
[14:40:57] <ralphm> I'd prefer it not be a Director
[14:40:59] <Guus> nyco, I don't quite like that. To many open tabs as it is, for my taste.
[14:41:19] <Guus> I'll not oppose, but am unlikely to contribute during the meeting.
[14:41:24] <nyco> then don't open tabe, just windows sitting side by side
[14:41:26] <dwd> I can knock some out for this meeting, though, and see how it goes.
[14:41:29] <nyco> then don't open tabs, just windows sitting side by side
[14:41:34] <ralphm> dwd: thank you
[14:41:41] <Seve> Is there something wrong on going through the history and write the minutes after that? Sounds easier to me.
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[14:42:09] <ralphm> From what I understand, this is harder than following along in real time, oddly.
[14:42:12] <dwd> Seve, It is possible, but personally I find it much harder - it's useful to be able to ask clarifying quesitons during the meeting.
[14:42:25] <nyco> Seve then one person has to re-process the whole meeting, it is quite boring, consumes time
[14:43:01] <ralphm> Anyway, let's take up dwd's offer and see how that works out.
[14:43:08] <Guus> wfm
[14:43:11] <Seve> Thanks dwd :)
[14:43:25] <nyco> thx @dwd
[14:43:44] <ralphm> 3. Elections of Secretary, Treasurer, Executive Director
[14:44:15] <ralphm> For the Secretary and Treasurer, I'd like to ask the current Officers if they'd like to continue in their role.
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[14:44:38] <ralphm> I will send out e-mails for that.
[14:44:38] <Guus> +1
[14:44:58] <MattJ> +1, thanks ralphm
[14:45:01] <nyco> +1
[14:45:09] <Seve> +1
[14:45:12] <nyco> and ED?
[14:45:32] <MattJ> nyco, ssshhh
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[14:45:37] <ralphm> For Executive Director, the previous Board has had some on and off discussions on this. Guus and I have been planning to talk to Peter Saint-Andre to see what we could do here, since he resigned from this office over a year ago.
[14:45:56] <MattJ> ralphm, did he actually resign? or say he intended to?
[14:46:36] <Guus> MattJ, we'll need handle him leaving regardless.
[14:47:03] <Guus> Ralph, let's pick two or three dates for Peter to agree with
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[14:47:31] <ralphm> Peter resigned on 8 March 2017, in an e-mail to the Board.
[14:48:20] <ralphm> I'm not sure if there's an effective date, explicitly, but we assumed the end of the Board term of 2016/2017.
[14:48:36] <Guus> (date for our meeting, I ment)
[14:48:50] <ralphm> Guus: sure
[14:49:05] <ralphm> 4. AOB
[14:49:06] <ralphm> ?
[14:49:21] <Guus> Seve, can you write a short bio please?
[14:49:36] <Guus> we'll need to replace Martin's on the website
[14:49:37] <ralphm> Guus: good point
[14:49:54] <nyco> no OB for me
[14:49:56] <Seve> Guus, right
[14:50:01] <nyco> oh wait, yes
[14:50:12] <nyco> what time and date fro each meeting?
[14:50:13] <nyco> frequency
[14:50:27] <nyco> what time and date for each meeting?
[14:50:44] <ralphm> I suggest keeping the weekly rhythm and time.
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[14:50:54] <nyco> +1
[14:50:58] <ralphm> If anyone is ok with this timeslot.
[14:51:02] <ralphm> everyone even
[14:51:08] <Guus> works for me, but Seve is new here 🙂
[14:51:21] <Seve> It is ok for me, thanks Guus :)
[14:51:25] <Guus> great
[14:51:33] <ralphm> MattJ, too?
[14:51:41] <MattJ> Yep, it's fine for me
[14:51:46] <ralphm> Splendid.
[14:51:56] <ralphm> 6. Date of Next ^
[14:52:02] <ralphm> 7. Close
[14:52:18] <ralphm> Thank you all. I look forward to working with you this term.
[14:52:24] <nyco> thx all
[14:52:26] <Seve> Me too, thank you very much!
[14:52:32] <MattJ> Thanks, and welcome again Seve, glad to have you aboard :)
[14:52:37] <jonas’> pun intended?
[14:52:37] <ralphm> Indeed!
[14:52:39] <Guus> Ralph: for our meeting with Peter, every Monday and Friday evening > 7 our time, is fine with me, with the exception of December 10th.
[14:52:40] <jonas’> :)
[14:52:47] <nyco> welcome on "board", Seve! 😉
[14:52:47] *ralphm bangs gavel
[14:52:58] <jonas’> Guus, what about december 24th?
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[14:53:13] <ralphm> Guus: yeah, I think that works for me too
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[14:53:37] <Guus> jonas', I intend to spend all of the holidays sitting idle in a virtual XSF board meeting room, yes.
[14:53:40] <Seve> Thank you everybody :D! Happy to be part of the board!
[14:53:47] <jonas’> Guus, oh, okay :)
[14:53:51] <Guus> ralphm, could you ask Peter if that works for him?
[14:54:03] <Guus> Good to have you, Seve!
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[14:58:28] <ralphm> Guus: just sent out the e-mail
[14:58:38] <ralphm> Seve can you verify you got it?
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[14:59:08] <ralphm> I'm sure Kev or intosi can you help you out in case of trouble.
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[14:59:20] <Seve> I didn't, something I need to figure out with iteam, yes
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[15:00:06] <MattJ> Sorry, I'd look but I don't have access to the mail server
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[15:06:17] <daniel> re: epub - those tables in MIX unsurprisingly don’t render very well
[15:06:27] <daniel> just not enough horizontal screen
[15:06:34] <daniel> but everything else is ok
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[15:12:20] <Guus> ralphm could you also give Seve access to the Trello board?
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[15:17:20] <Neustradamus> Seve: https://github.com/stpeter/jabberdotorg/issues/5 + previous ^^
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[15:20:49] <Guus> nyco maybe you want to update your bio too
[15:21:25] <Guus> it still has you listed Mongoose Product Owner, you're no longer, are you?
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[15:26:33] <Neustradamus> It is possible to see for an update of https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/infrastructure-team?
- There is not : Data backups (provided by ASET at Penn State University)
- Digital certificates is now Let's Encrypt
- Source control (Subversion and various products donated by Atlassian) <-- dead since a long time: tracker.xmpp.org... and now github
- Web server and associated software (lighttpd, MySQL, WordPress, MediaWiki) <-- WordPress has been removed...
Thanks in advance.
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[15:28:57] <Guus> Neustradamus, please provide a pull request
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[16:03:08] <daniel> btw Link Mauve I've looked into sending out a xhtml-im render of of message styling in addition to the message styling itself at least for plain text messages. not that i’m a huge fan but I thought it doesn’t hurt right. but it doesn’t do strike through text
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[16:03:11] <daniel> any solution for that?
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[16:04:00] <Link Mauve> daniel, hmm, IIRC there is support for text-decoration.
[16:04:28] <Link Mauve> Someone also suggested adding support for <del/> in the recommended profile.
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[16:05:21] <daniel> i would prefer to avoid having to generate css
[16:06:12] <jonas’> and I would prefer to avoid having to process CSS
[16:06:20] <jonas’> I think ``<del/>`` would be an okay choice
[16:06:47] <daniel> also it seems there is font-weight and <strong>
[16:06:51] <Link Mauve> You could consider <span style="text-decoration: line-through"/> as a single element maybe?
[16:07:09] <daniel> it feels like xhtml-im is a very weird mix of styling and context information
[16:07:10] <SamWhited> We could also get rid of strike through in styling; I just added it because Whatsapp or something had it, but I don't see it as necessary.
[16:07:36] <Link Mauve> SamWhited, there is no reason for that, I’m sure some people now rely on it.
[16:08:06] <daniel> what is the recommended approach for rendering <strong style="font-weight: normal;">
[16:08:14] <jonas’> daniel, "normal"
[16:08:17] <daniel> will it look differnt depending on what client you use it with?
[16:08:18] <jonas’> @style trumps element style
[16:08:25] <ralphm> Slack has strike through.
[16:08:25] <jonas’> by normal XHTML/CSS rules
[16:08:28] <daniel> since css is not mandetory to implement
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[16:08:35] <jonas’> then it’ll render differently in each client :)
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[16:10:16] <Link Mauve> Well, @style is marked REQUIRED in the recommended attributes.
[16:10:30] <Link Mauve> The rest, NOT RECOMMENDED.
[16:10:31] <daniel> So I have to implemt css?
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[16:11:35] <Link Mauve> Uh, table 8 says that <strong/> and <em/> don’t take @style or any other attribute.
[16:11:37] <daniel> i feel like last time we talked about it someone said i don’t have to implement css
[16:11:44] <Link Mauve> This would contradict jonas’.
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[16:51:52] <ralphm> Well, first of all, while implementing the style attribute is REQUIRED, the styles to support are RECOMMENDED. I suggest that supporting no styles is still compliant.
[16:52:14] <ralphm> (there's also prose in 7.6 to suggest this)
[16:52:34] <ralphm> Further, the entire specification is NOT RECOMMENDED to implement given its deprecation.
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[17:04:33] <daniel> Yeah I don't know. I was just trying to make message styling work for clients that don't like message styling
[17:05:27] <Zash> ralphm: Can it be un-deprecated?
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[17:05:59] <ralphm> There's no defined process for that
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[17:07:57] <Zash> The underlying problem was not solved by deprecating beacuse it resides in the availability of rendering engines with way too much attack surface.
[17:08:17] <Zash> And the lack of sufficiently advanced rendering engines that aren't also javascript and css engines
[17:09:14] <Zash> And message styling looks too much like Markdown that people just throw it at their markdown parsers which happily pass raw HTML right through and we're back at square one.
[17:10:14] <Yagiza> I can easily implement XEP-394 instead of XHTML-IM in my client once it will be usable. The idea of XEP-0394 is really good. But current implementation is so awful, I don want even try to implement right now.
[17:10:22] <daniel> well message styling is simple enough that people can at least attempt to write their own parsers
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[17:10:50] <Link Mauve> Zash, both 0393 and Markdown are fine as input formats, even with HTML stuff.
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[17:12:43] <Zash> The problem isn't the input format, the problem is doing anything and throwing it into a full blown HTML+CSS+JS environment
[17:12:55] <jonas’> ralphm, speaking of process, reminding board about https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/719
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[17:13:39] <Link Mauve> Zash, indeed, but that’ll happen no matter the wire format.
[17:13:40] <rion> sometimes on 1st April I send a css injection to a muc which turns chatlog up side down. I don't want to fix this "bug" because it's funny =))
[17:13:55] <ralphm> That was approved last week!
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[17:14:07] <Link Mauve> rion, :D
[17:14:08] <Zash> rion: Can't you do that with some magic Unicode marker too? :)
[17:14:21] <jonas’> ralphm, no minutes from last week :(
[17:14:30] <Zash> https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/rtl.png
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[17:16:51] <ralphm> Hmm
[17:16:52] <rion> Zash: I think it's possible with anything. html5 is cool =)
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[17:17:56] <jonas’> ralphm, hm, I don’t think it passed, really
[17:18:10] <jonas’> the last thing I saw from Guus about that during the meeting was more a "I wanna ask Peter first"
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[17:21:34] <ralphm> You are right. I'll pick it up for next week
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[17:58:15] <Zash> Why does "cla-assistant" need write access to my everythings?
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[18:04:11] <Zash> aaaaaaaaand that's enough web for today
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[18:59:51] <daniel> Mhhh now I need a thing to export the notes I made on my ebook reader to the mailing list
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[23:07:59] <pep.> https://2019.copyleftconf.org/ right after fosdem if people are interested
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[23:27:07] <Zash> who where
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[23:29:50] <pep.> Brussels
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[23:32:50] <pep.> I'd like to go, I'll start planning in a few days
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[23:41:10] <edhelas> https://twitter.com/musalbas/status/1068179464197156864
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