Saturday, December 08, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
December
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
          1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
           
XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:02:40] *** dos shows as "online"
[00:04:36] *** genofire shows as "online"
[00:06:50] *** marc has left the room
[00:07:01] *** marc has joined the room
[00:14:03] *** efrit has joined the room
[00:17:02] *** genofire has left the room
[00:17:09] *** genofire shows as "online"
[00:17:29] *** andrey.g has left the room
[00:20:27] *** Zash has left the room
[00:21:27] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[00:24:49] *** labdsf has joined the room
[00:26:06] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[00:31:34] *** UsL has left the room
[00:31:35] *** UsL has joined the room
[00:33:16] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[00:40:02] *** frainz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[00:43:16] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[00:43:48] *** oli has joined the room
[00:43:53] *** Dele Olajide has joined the room
[00:43:59] *** Dele Olajide has left the room
[00:47:46] *** alexis has joined the room
[00:50:01] *** frainz shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[01:00:47] *** oli has left the room
[01:00:48] *** oli has joined the room
[01:01:17] *** lovetox has left the room
[01:02:41] *** andrey.g has left the room
[01:03:17] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[01:04:26] *** genofire shows as "online"
[01:06:23] *** efrit has left the room
[01:06:38] *** efrit has joined the room
[01:09:26] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[01:17:20] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[01:19:26] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[01:20:54] *** andrey.g has left the room
[01:23:06] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[01:25:20] *** lumi shows as "online"
[01:25:23] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[01:25:25] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[01:35:43] *** alexis has left the room
[01:37:03] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[01:39:42] *** efrit has left the room
[01:42:31] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[01:57:42] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[02:08:05] *** alexis has joined the room
[02:45:02] *** alexis has left the room
[02:45:26] *** alexis has joined the room
[03:26:37] *** alexis has left the room
[03:29:07] *** alexis has joined the room
[03:35:23] *** waqas has joined the room
[03:35:27] *** waqas has left the room
[03:38:52] *** waqas has joined the room
[03:39:17] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[03:39:18] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[04:03:24] *** alexis has left the room
[04:04:17] *** alexis has joined the room
[04:10:49] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[04:10:56] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[04:27:25] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[04:27:53] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[04:29:19] *** ta has joined the room
[04:30:04] *** igoose has left the room
[04:30:07] *** igoose has joined the room
[04:50:49] *** alexis has left the room
[04:51:17] *** alexis has joined the room
[05:00:30] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[05:01:42] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[05:22:25] *** alacer has joined the room
[05:23:30] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[05:24:29] *** igoose has left the room
[05:25:06] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[05:28:47] *** alacer has left the room
[05:32:39] *** ta has left the room
[05:37:36] *** igoose has joined the room
[05:41:47] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[05:42:02] *** mimi89999 has joined the room
[05:43:49] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[05:50:04] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[06:09:39] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
[06:10:16] *** marc has left the room
[06:10:44] *** marc has joined the room
[06:17:49] *** ta has joined the room
[06:36:45] *** ta shows as "online"
[06:37:04] *** oli has joined the room
[06:39:58] *** dos has left the room
[06:46:26] <Yagiza> Hello!
[06:50:09] <Yagiza> jonas’, are you Jonas Schäfer?
[06:54:23] <Yagiza> Is it possible to adopt a deferred XEP?
[06:57:32] <ralphm> Yes.
[06:57:37] <ralphm> Which one?
[06:58:23] <Yagiza> ralphm, right now I'm about XEP-0394: Message Markup
[07:00:10] <Yagiza> ralphm, I want to implement something like it in my client as an alternative to deprecated XEP-0071, but in it current state it is almost useless, so I don't want. And it seems, no one wants.
[07:00:31] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[07:00:45] <Yagiza> ralphm, and author said that he have no time to improve it.
[07:01:07] <ralphm> Yeah, XHTML-IM has various security concerns, that's why it was deprecated
[07:02:32] *** lskdjf has left the room
[07:02:37] <Yagiza> ralphm, the idea of the XEP is good, but it's current implementation is awful. We need to add more features and remove unneeded restrictions to make it a usable alternative to XEP-0071.
[07:02:42] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[07:03:17] <ralphm> There's been some recent discussion on it
[07:03:33] <ralphm> And there are a few other suggestions
[07:06:14] <Yagiza> ralphm, yes. But the main question is who will keep updating the XEP. At least, to advance it back to experimental state.
[07:06:35] <ralphm> https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/bmh.html
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0393.html
[07:08:20] <ralphm> Yagiza: sure. I'd send an email to standards@xmpp.org about your suggestions for modification. Then either Jonas will ask for a pull request or more discussion ensues.
[07:11:11] <Yagiza> ralphm, ok, thanx
[07:11:19] *** Nekit has joined the room
[07:11:30] <ralphm> No worries.
[07:13:22] *** daniel has left the room
[07:15:08] *** daniel has joined the room
[07:17:08] <oli> Yagiza: xep-0394 _sucks_
[07:20:38] *** daniel has left the room
[07:20:46] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[07:20:56] <oli> don't implement it.
[07:21:17] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
[07:21:22] *** daniel has joined the room
[07:22:02] *** MattJ shows as "dnd"
[07:22:34] <Yagiza> oli, the idea is good.
[07:22:59] <oli> no its not
[07:23:21] <oli> i hate the idea
[07:23:32] <Yagiza> oli, why?
[07:24:31] <Yagiza> oli, I myself hate an idea of using LML in IM, but I feel ut's a good idea to allow using rich text formatting.
[07:24:31] <oli> because it forces me to use some weird "markup"
[07:24:54] *** alexis has left the room
[07:25:16] <Yagiza> oli, it forces you? Never heard about any XEP, which FORCES someone to do something.
[07:26:00] <Yagiza> oli, AFAIK all the XEPs are optional.
[07:26:00] <oli> why not use <b> <em> <i> ?
[07:26:17] <Yagiza> oli, what do you mean?
[07:26:32] <Yagiza> oli, where to use them?
[07:26:52] <oli> why not use some basic xhtml for rich text.
[07:26:56] *** frainz has left the room
[07:27:08] <oli> the client can decide how to implement it
[07:27:40] <oli> if you like 0394 then translate it
[07:27:59] <oli> client translates it to xhtml
[07:28:43] <oli> underlines as italics is weird...
[07:30:21] <Yagiza> oli, i can't get your point.
[07:30:33] <Yagiza> oli, what do you suggest?
[07:31:55] <oli> the richtext format on the wire should be xml, like xep-0071, but much simpler
[07:32:53] <oli> clients could implement whatsapp like markup, but translate it to xml
[07:34:26] <Yagiza> oli, using the way it described in XEP-0071 have nasty problem: formatted and unformatted texts are separated. So, it's possible to send absolutely different content to those, who's software supports XEP and for those, who's software do not. Also, it will make problem with P2P encryption XEPs.
[07:34:42] <ralphm> oli: the primary objection to having something syntactically a subset of (X)HTML is that people just throw at their closest HTML rendering engine, without checking.
[07:35:15] <Yagiza> oli, so, XEP-0394 is much better in that way: text itself and its formatting MUST be separated!
[07:36:13] <oli> maybe im confusing xeps
[07:36:55] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[07:37:55] *** Holger shows as "online"
[07:37:55] *** labdsf has left the room
[07:38:13] <Yagiza> oli, yes. If you're about XEP-0393, it's really awful.
[07:38:31] <Yagiza> oli, I'm strongly against using LML in IM.
[07:38:48] <Yagiza> oli, also, it's too bad that XEP names are confusing.
[07:39:08] <oli> fuck, sorry
[07:39:22] <Yagiza> oli, I told about it more than a year ago, but nothing's changed so far.
[07:39:53] *** Holger has left the room
[07:40:06] <Yagiza> oli, XEP-0393 describes LML, but called "Styling" and XEP-0394 describes styling, but called "Markup"!
[07:40:41] <Yagiza> oli, I also was often confused because of that and often mixed them up!
[07:40:48] *** Jeremy has joined the room
[07:42:19] <oli> ok, i will remember
0393 *bad*
0394 good
[07:42:29] <Yagiza> That's why I want to adopt XEP-0394, to fix those issues and make it usable, to start its implementation in my client.
[07:42:47] <oli> which client
[07:42:52] <oli> ?
[07:43:17] <Yagiza> oli, yes. XEP-0393 is a bad idea itself. XEP-0394 is a good idea, but awful implementation in its current state.
[07:43:25] <Yagiza> oli, eyeCU.
[07:43:48] <Yagiza> oli, it has full implementation of XEP-0071 right now.
[07:44:34] <ralphm> I'd rename for being so much like ICQ you might have a trademark issue
[07:44:53] <Yagiza> oli, it can even use both http(s)/ftp and cid (BOB) chemas for embedded images.
[07:45:49] <Yagiza> ralphm, i don't think so. eyeCU called that way because it's geoloc-oriented. It has built-in online map engine, so you can see your contacts on the map.
[07:47:44] <ralphm> I don't have a beef in it, just saying that I'd avoid a legal discussion that you're likely to lose.
[07:48:07] <ralphm> I'm not taking about the client, I'm taking about its name.
[07:48:14] <ralphm> Talking
[07:48:35] *** Jeremy shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:48:51] *** labdsf has joined the room
[07:49:59] <Yagiza> ralphm, yes. You're just the first person, who ever tell that our client name may have legal issues.
[07:50:20] <ralphm> Better me than a lawyer
[07:51:14] <Yagiza> ralphm, yes. So, you gave me an idea to register "eyeCU" and eyeCU logo as a trademark!
[07:53:12] <ralphm> Good luck. I'm very curious about the outcome.
[07:56:35] <oli> OS/2 :)
[07:56:53] <Yagiza> ralphm, you are from Netherlands, you talk just like you're from USA! ;-)
[07:57:23] <Yagiza> oli, do you fel something bad about IBM OS/2?
[07:57:27] <Yagiza> feel
[07:57:38] <ralphm> I'm told I do sound like a Californian when speaking English.
[07:58:35] *** Jeremy shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:59:19] <oli> Yagiza: I used it in the 90s with fidonet and BBS
[07:59:53] <Yagiza> ralphm, yes, but that's not an idea. A character of a popular Russian sitcom said once: "USA is a country of lawyers and criminals!". The idea is that because of lawyers in USA anyone may suddenly find himself a criminal.
[08:00:02] <Yagiza> oli, me too!
[08:00:37] *** genofire shows as "online"
[08:01:44] <oli> i dont think there is a problem with eyeCU and ICQ.
[08:03:32] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[08:04:08] <oli> it did remind me of CU-SeeMe
[08:05:39] <oli> ok, but thats offtopic
[08:05:44] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:05:44] <Yagiza> oli, I'm sure it's impossible in Russia, even now, when ICQ belongs to a Russian company. But I can't be sure about USA and other countries with strange laws and almighty lawyers.
[08:05:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:07:31] <oli> are there other clients that support xep-0394?
[08:09:16] <Yagiza> oli, I hope, no
[08:09:44] <Yagiza> oli, if there are, it makes its harder to improve it.
[08:10:33] <Yagiza> oli, the authors of those clients will try to resist serious changes.
[08:13:21] <ralphm> I don't see that as a valid reason against changes while it is experimental or even deferred.
[08:13:51] <Yagiza> ralphm, me so
[08:13:56] <Yagiza> ralphm, but
[08:15:17] *** alexis has joined the room
[08:15:44] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:16:51] <Yagiza> ralphm, once I tried to suggest improvements for XEP-0363 here, some people started to argue against them. And the only argument was that there are existing implementations and authors will not implement my suggestions even after XEP is updated.
[08:18:16] *** Holger has left the room
[08:18:27] *** Holger shows as "online"
[08:19:04] *** Jeremy shows as "online"
[08:20:20] <ralphm> Well, if they're backwards incompatible, it may require increasing the number at the end of the namespace. Whether a change gets accepted is ultimately up to the Council.
[08:20:42] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[08:21:07] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:21:24] <ralphm> Oddly, XEP-0363 is still in Last Call, so you might make another attempt.
[08:25:39] *** lumi has joined the room
[08:25:52] <Yagiza> ralphm, to tell the truth, I didn't even try to post my suggestions to mailing list, 'cause they were hardly criticized by a pair of participants of this (or jdev) room.
[08:26:49] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[08:38:12] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[08:39:18] *** genofire shows as "online"
[08:39:44] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[08:42:36] *** frainz shows as "online"
[08:46:41] <Ge0rG> Somebody tried to make the 0363 client a full HTTP proxy and almost succeeded. The web is a huge mess for security, not only the markup but also the transport.
[08:47:22] <Yagiza> Ge0rG, IC
[08:47:33] *** Jeremy shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:48:00] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[08:48:52] <Ge0rG> Also 0393 was supposed to document existing usage of the markup in some clients, and is sufficiently easy to implement. I'm not convinced that 0394 has a chance for wide adoption
[08:49:40] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:49:51] <Yagiza> Ge0rG, that's why I think it should be an informational XEP, not standards track.
[08:49:58] <Ge0rG> The names are really bad. I already suggested renaming them to markright (uses >) and markleft (needs < for all styling annotations)
[08:50:48] <daniel> Funnily enough 393 is better than what some clients are implementing
[08:50:50] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is " (Assente per inattività dopo più di 5 minuti)"
[08:50:55] <Yagiza> Ge0rG, the only idea I suggested is to send file hash when requesting a slot. So, if file is already on the server, server will reply just with URL, without upload slot.
[08:51:02] <daniel> Same syntax stricter rules
[08:51:10] <Ge0rG> Yagiza: I've implemented 0393 in my client. It's great.
[08:51:40] <Yagiza> Ge0rG, your arguments?
[08:51:52] <ralphm> Indeed, 0393 is basically codifying the Slack syntax, no?
[08:52:01] <Yagiza> Ge0rG, besides "it's great because I like it".
[08:52:02] <daniel> You only start noticing how important the parsing rules in 393 are when you use a client that doesn't follow
[08:52:21] <daniel> > Indeed, 0393 is basically codifying the Slack syntax, no?
I mix of WhatsApp and slack plus some in the wild testing
[08:52:34] <daniel> I mean WhatsApp and slack don't publish their exact rules
[08:52:48] <daniel> But it's the same general syntax
[08:52:57] <Ge0rG> Yagiza: your suggestion is nice, but now you created an oracle that will tell the user whether a given file exists on the server
[08:54:04] <Ge0rG> Yagiza: 0393 is in a sweet spot of easy to implement, easy to understand for users, sufficiently easy for handicapped people
[08:54:28] <Ge0rG> Also works over transports
[08:55:38] <Yagiza> Ge0rG, yes. And what's wrong with it?
[08:56:04] *** alexis has joined the room
[08:56:26] *** genofire shows as "online"
[08:56:42] <ralphm> Ge0rG: do you think that the body markup hints spec in the inbox is a useful complement to XEP-0393?
[08:57:09] <Ge0rG> ralphm: haven't read yet
[08:57:33] *** Jeremy shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:57:39] *** blabla has left the room
[08:58:21] <daniel> ralphm: it feels overly generalized. That will end up like the stanza-id xep or the hints xep that is only used in one place. I'd prefer to use add a <styled xml=message styling /> hint
[08:58:32] *** blabla has joined the room
[08:58:50] *** alexis has left the room
[08:59:00] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[08:59:17] *** alexis has joined the room
[09:00:03] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[09:01:48] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:02:42] <ralphm> Huh? Doesn't BHM just tell the other side which markup dialect was used in the body?
[09:02:58] <ralphm> BMH
[09:04:02] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is " (Assente per inattività dopo più di 5 minuti)"
[09:04:23] <daniel> Yes. But I don't think anyone will ever use anything else
[09:04:41] <daniel> And then why bother having to rely on a second xep
[09:06:35] *** alexis has left the room
[09:07:01] *** alexis has joined the room
[09:08:03] *** 404.city has joined the room
[09:08:58] *** efrit has joined the room
[09:10:40] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[09:11:01] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[09:11:47] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[09:11:57] *** frainz has left the room
[09:12:02] <Yagiza> Ge0rG, which of above cannot be applied to XEP-0394?
[09:12:33] *** Jeremy shows as "online"
[09:13:05] <pep.> I would just implement xhtml-im fwiw, maybe without CSS until we find a replacement. There is no good alternative for it as of today and deprecating it was a mistake.
[09:14:02] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Non disponibile per inattività dopo più di 15 minuti)"
[09:14:21] <pep.> Even then, CSS included in there is pretty simple, it's not CSS3
[09:14:49] *** labdsf has left the room
[09:15:28] <pep.> 393 is fine as an input method, but that's about it
[09:16:35] <ralphm> pep.: the problem isn't which parts you use, it is how clients implement rendering, which is usually not checking the input and passing it to a generic HTML renderer
[09:16:54] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[09:17:16] <pep.> Yes, I just don't want to buy this argument, you can say that about pretty much anything
[09:17:38] <oli> lets not use the web
[09:17:45] <ralphm> I don't think the idea behind XEP-0394 is bad, as it provides a way to very explicitly mark up the plain text. Might be better if it was somehow combined with References.
[09:17:46] *** marc_ has joined the room
[09:18:03] <oli> references?
[09:18:28] <ralphm> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0372.html
[09:19:15] <ralphm> And see also https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html
[09:19:40] <waqas> I have very mixed feelings about xhtml-im, but the main thing I know about it is that every single client I looked at had RCE vulnerabilities.
[09:19:56] *** 404.city has left the room
[09:20:13] <pep.> Because it was the only place with vulnerabilities right
[09:20:45] <Yagiza> pep., why not just improve XEP-0394 instead of trying to rip-off CSS from XEP-0071?
[09:21:18] <waqas> It was. I think I averaged 15 minutes each, across more than a handful of clients before seeing something dumb.
[09:21:40] <waqas> Including some native clients with embedded HTML, where RCE meant full local system access.
[09:21:55] <Yagiza> pep., also, what's nice about LML as input method? WYSIWYG is always better for and user, than LML.
[09:22:32] <pep.> Yagiza: yeah I don't really care about the input method tbh
[09:23:37] <Yagiza> pep., so, then. Why improved XEP-0394 is not better than ripped XHTML-IM?
[09:24:12] <ralphm> waqas: especially in MUC context, because it doesn't require direct contact and the amplification angle?
[09:25:23] <oli> ralphm: > And see also https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html

i don't understand what it has to do with markup and references.

[09:25:53] <pep.> Yagiza, Dismiss the comment about CSS. It's not that complex. If people want more stuff in security implications, let there be more stuff added. I don't think deprecating the xep altogether was the thing to do
[09:25:54] <ralphm> oli: XHTML-IM provides a way to include images
[09:26:13] <oli> ok
[09:26:33] <oli> xhtml-im includes a lot
[09:26:49] *** Holger has left the room
[09:27:07] <ralphm> oli: so SIMS helps achieving that in a similar way as XEP-0394 does. Also why I think they should be aligned, spec wise.
[09:27:18] *** efrit has left the room
[09:27:35] <waqas> Note that I'm neither for, nor against deprecation. I think it's a feature people may want. It was simply concerning how hard it was to find an implementation that was secure.
[09:28:14] *** Holger shows as "online"
[09:30:08] <oli> Yagiza: which changes for xep0394 do you propose?
[09:30:32] <oli> where are the problems?
[09:31:40] *** oli has left the room
[09:31:52] *** oli has joined the room
[09:31:59] <ralphm> waqas: disconcerting indeed
[09:32:11] *** pep. has left the room
[09:32:29] <ralphm> By the way, XEP-0393 and XEP-0394 could totally co-exist.
[09:35:19] *** pep. shows as "online"
[09:37:26] *** ta shows as "online"
[09:37:36] *** genofire shows as "online"
[09:37:52] *** lnj has joined the room
[09:39:03] *** efrit has joined the room
[09:40:54] *** labdsf has joined the room
[09:42:36] *** Jeremy shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:44:26] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:45:45] <Yagiza> oli, add support for embedded images and hyperlinks.
[09:46:48] <Yagiza> oli, add normal "bold", "italic", "underscore" text decoration instead of strange "emphasis".
[09:47:31] <Yagiza> oli, add ability to specify font type, font size and text color.
[09:47:48] <Yagiza> oli, add ability to specify text alignment.
[09:49:04] <Yagiza> oli, add ability to remove list markers from the beginning of list item text when rendering.
[09:49:08] <Ge0rG> Yagiza [10:47]:
> oli, add ability to specify font type, font size and text color.
This will end up with clients sending 5px Comic Sans black on black, kthx
[09:50:34] <Yagiza> Ge0rG, as I said many times, any feature could be abused. We should deprecate XMPP itself, 'cause there are hundreds features in it which could be used for abuse.
[09:52:17] <oli> but it also get used. like in the mess we have with emails
[09:52:27] *** Jeremy shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[09:52:35] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[09:53:30] <ralphm> Yagiza: if those are your suggestions, then I'd rather have you look at the References stuff I just mentioned
[09:54:20] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[09:54:26] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[09:54:34] <ralphm> Also, if it were my client, I'd never implement font type, size, or color.
[09:55:37] <oli> supporting font size and color will be messy
[09:55:42] *** Nekit has left the room
[09:55:43] *** Nekit has joined the room
[09:56:25] <oli> monospace font has some value
[09:57:34] <ralphm> With backticks, sure
[09:57:51] <oli> everything else should be semantic markup only
[09:57:56] <Yagiza> oli, ralphm, it depends on what you are using it for.
[09:58:56] <oli> maybe xhtml-im is just the right way to do everything fancy
[09:59:26] <Yagiza> oli, yes, but it has flaws which XEP-0394 solves.
[10:00:03] <Yagiza> oli, so making XEP-0394 powerful enough, but without XHTML-IM flaws is a good way, I beleive.
[10:02:28] <ralphm> oli: I'd see the use of monospace for literals (one backtick) and code snippets (triple backticks) as purely semantic.
[10:03:30] <ralphm> Allowing users to specify font size, type, or color, just makes for a horrible mess. Like different clients/desktops having different default background colors.
[10:04:09] <ralphm> We have this XHTML-IM right now, and at some time patched Gajim to ignore those styles completely.
[10:04:41] <oli> maybe we could just encapsulate rfc822 messages
[10:05:31] <oli> would be super fun and messy
[10:07:13] *** Jeremy shows as "online"
[10:07:57] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[10:09:31] <Yagiza> ralphm, author of XEP-0394 thinks about specifying not text color but only its hue and saturation. To allow client always make text contrast. So, that's not really a problem.
[10:10:16] <Yagiza> Inability to specify bold, italic and underscore in different combinations if much worse.
[10:10:46] *** rion shows as "online"
[10:12:15] <ralphm> I don't agree with the author then, that this is useful.
[10:12:25] <oli> have anyone thought about accessibility?
[10:13:52] <Yagiza> oli, what's wrong with accessibility? If contrast problem is solved, I guess no problem.
[10:14:19] <ralphm> I strongly think that markup should be semantic
[10:15:19] <oli> and i believe that xep-0393 is not very screen reader friendly
[10:15:23] <ralphm> E.g. while monospace for literals is nice, it doesn't work if you are in a terminal. Then you need some other way of rendering that differently. E.g. by setting a different background.
[10:15:41] <ralphm> oli: why not?
[10:16:14] <oli> i have to test it
[10:16:15] <ralphm> I'd say markdown-like syntaxes are actually very good for screen readers.
[10:17:39] *** Jeremy shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:17:51] *** Jeremy shows as "online"
[10:18:50] *** genofire shows as "online"
[10:18:55] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[10:21:42] *** dos shows as "online"
[10:24:19] *** Jeremy shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:24:20] *** oli has left the room
[10:24:21] *** oli has joined the room
[10:25:00] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:25:18] *** genofire shows as "online"
[10:25:58] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[10:28:04] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[10:29:03] *** !xsf_martin has joined the room
[10:29:03] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[10:29:03] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[10:29:14] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[10:29:14] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[10:29:14] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[10:29:15] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[10:29:15] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[10:30:03] *** lnj has left the room
[10:30:05] *** lnj has joined the room
[10:30:49] *** igoose has left the room
[10:30:56] *** igoose has joined the room
[10:32:22] <oli> screen reader test: *one* _two_ `three`
[10:32:46] *** alexis has left the room
[10:33:55] *** Jeremy shows as "online"
[10:33:57] *** alexis has joined the room
[10:33:57] <oli> »one underscore two underscore backquote three backquote«
[10:34:03] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[10:34:42] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:34:54] <oli> doesn't work well with android talkback
[10:36:32] <oli> ~talkback~ select-to-read
[10:37:56] *** genofire shows as "online"
[10:38:02] <jonas’> Yagiza, yes, you can adopt a deferred XEP, but I might retract XEP-0394 in the medium future actually
[10:38:50] <Yagiza> jonas’, so, I can try to publish my own XEP instead of that one?
[10:38:57] <jonas’> you can also adopt it if you want
[10:39:08] <jonas’> I’d be fine with that, since I want to go down other routes, I think
[10:39:21] *** Jeremy shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:39:22] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:39:23] <Yagiza> jonas’, that's nice
[10:39:38] <jonas’> Yagiza, my original idea where to go with XEP-0394 was to enforce a specific plain-text representation of the different markup variants to have an automatic plaintext fallback
[10:39:47] *** McKael shows as "online"
[10:39:54] <jonas’> so e.g. a span marked with strong would have to be bracketed with *
[10:40:07] <jonas’> but that was just the last idea I had
[10:40:26] <Yagiza> jonas’, IC
[10:40:57] <Yagiza> jonas’, anyway, we should think about the best way to implement that all.
[10:41:42] <jonas’> I think we might end up with a revamped version of '71 actually
[10:42:06] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[10:42:50] <oli> so xep-0071 is security nightmare, xep-0393 horrible for screen readers and sexist, xep-0394 will be retracted
[10:44:12] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:45:51] <MattJ> oli, ok, what?
[10:46:59] <jonas’> what
[10:47:01] <oli> lets just use plaintext.
[10:47:05] <jonas’> sexist?
[10:47:09] <jonas’> what did I miss here?
[10:47:56] <oli> gender gap doesnt work
[10:48:21] <oli> *professor*in*
[10:48:26] <oli> sexist
[10:49:21] *** Jeremy shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:49:21] <oli> _professor_innen_
[10:49:51] <jonas’> ah, that
[10:50:20] <MattJ> jonas’, ? enlighten me?
[10:50:55] <daniel> that’s going to require so much explaining
[10:50:56] <jonas’> MattJ, in german, we have gender in nouns. the male version is the default.
[10:51:08] <jonas’> then there’s the "in" suffix which makes it a female word
[10:51:28] <jonas’> e.g. Lehrer (-> male teacher), Lehrerin (-> female teacher)
[10:51:51] *** efrit has left the room
[10:51:56] <jonas’> now the male default is viewed as sexist by some (many even?), and also the restriction to two versions (male and female) as problematic
[10:52:20] <jonas’> so some constructs such as Lehrer*In (kind of a wildcard thing) or Lehrer_In (symbolising the gap in the language to support all the cases) have been invented
[10:52:40] <MattJ> I see
[10:52:44] <jonas’> in formal language, Lehrer/In was typical (but also only represents the two versions), LehrerIn has become a shorthand of that
[10:53:04] <jonas’> (I even brought that up when XEP-0393 was discussed)
[10:53:16] <MattJ> Sounds like it's the German language that's sexist, not XEP-0393 :)
[10:53:25] <jonas’> that’s true
[10:54:02] <MattJ> But yes, it highlights the fact that the XEP assumes these symbols are just free for it to use for its own purpose
[10:54:12] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:54:15] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[10:54:21] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[10:54:27] <jonas’> it does
[10:54:31] <oli> i'm arguing all the time that we just change the german language, but without any succesd
[10:54:57] <jonas’> oli, sounds like a plan, but in that case I’d actually like to see the "*" version; I like how globby it is :)
[10:55:34] <oli> what do you mean?
[10:55:52] <jonas’> which part of my statement is unclear to yu?
[10:55:54] <jonas’> which part of my statement is unclear to you?
[10:56:15] <oli> like to see the * version
[10:56:19] <oli> ?
[10:57:14] <daniel> fwiw this could potentially be fixed in the xep
[10:57:25] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[10:57:32] <jonas’> making the non-existent grammar more complex?
[10:57:33] <daniel> but that’s not as cool as complaining about stuff
[10:57:48] <jonas’> still waiting on Sams promise to deliver a formal grammar for the thing.
[10:58:16] <daniel> jonas’, one potential fix (of the two that i have in mind) would actually make things easier
[10:58:43] <daniel> although i would prefer the more complicated one. :-)
[10:59:45] <oli> jonas’: i would eliminate the multiple grammatical genders from the german language. problem solved
[11:00:01] *** genofire shows as "online"
[11:00:22] <oli> okay, but what about screen readers?
[11:00:36] <jonas’> oli, I like you, you repeat all the arguments I brought up a year ago :)
[11:00:50] <jonas’> gives me the feeling I’m not totally outside of the norm
[11:02:07] *** Jeremy shows as "online"
[11:02:47] *** marc has left the room
[11:05:22] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[11:05:30] *** dos shows as "online"
[11:06:32] *** !xsf_martin has left the room
[11:07:32] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[11:07:50] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:08:08] *** genofire shows as "online"
[11:08:22] *** Jeremy shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:09:24] *** Jeremy shows as "online"
[11:09:45] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[11:09:45] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[11:13:30] *** dos has left the room
[11:13:35] *** dos shows as "online"
[11:15:03] *** dos has left the room
[11:15:05] *** dos shows as "online"
[11:15:44] *** McKael shows as "online"
[11:15:47] *** cookie shows as "online"
[11:16:30] *** Holger shows as "online"
[11:17:18] *** dos has left the room
[11:17:20] *** dos shows as "online"
[11:17:34] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:19:59] *** dos has left the room
[11:20:29] *** dos shows as "online"
[11:22:13] *** Maranda has joined the room
[11:22:46] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[11:25:23] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[11:27:16] <Yagiza> If I adopt XEP-0394, it won't be retracted, so calm down.
[11:27:33] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:28:22] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[11:30:47] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[11:31:56] *** genofire shows as "online"
[11:33:18] *** lnj has left the room
[11:33:34] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[11:34:10] *** Yagiza has left the room
[11:37:14] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:42:56] *** genofire shows as "online"
[11:42:57] *** McKael shows as "online"
[11:51:56] *** Maranda has left the room
[11:53:12] *** alexde has joined the room
[11:54:25] *** Ge0rG shows as "dnd"
[11:54:41] <Ge0rG> Maybe XHTML-IM is just the wrong way to do anything. I don't want somebody else to be dictating how the text *I* shall read will look. I'm okay with the sender define monospace vs normal, and _maybe_ color hints from a predefined high contrast palette and _maybe_ relative font sizes for pasting headings.
[11:55:06] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:55:44] *** tux shows as "online"
[11:55:56] *** tux has left the room
[11:55:56] *** tux shows as "online"
[11:57:57] *** Maranda has joined the room
[11:58:14] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[11:58:48] *** alexis has left the room
[11:59:13] *** alexis has joined the room
[12:01:03] <oli> for chat i'm happy with plain text. for everything else we could resurrect google wave
[12:01:14] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[12:01:22] <jonas’> Ge0rG, so you want XHTML-IM :)
[12:01:25] <jonas’> not the current one
[12:01:28] <jonas’> but you want semantic markup
[12:01:37] <jonas’> emphasis, monospace, headings
[12:02:06] *** genofire shows as "online"
[12:02:46] *** goffi has joined the room
[12:03:01] *** goffi shows as "online"
[12:05:39] <ralphm> oli: I think that's a minority opinion.
[12:07:14] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:07:36] *** alexis has left the room
[12:08:02] *** alexis has joined the room
[12:08:33] <oli> better plain text than xep-0393. i'll try to disable it in conversations, later.
[12:10:10] *** Jeremy shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:10:10] *** Jeremy shows as "online"
[12:12:41] *** dos shows as "online"
[12:14:57] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
[12:16:03] *** alexis has left the room
[12:16:54] *** alexis has joined the room
[12:17:14] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:17:27] *** genofire shows as "online"
[12:20:22] *** rion has left the room
[12:20:32] *** daniel has left the room
[12:20:35] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:22:42] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:22:48] <Syndace> Couple of OMEMO questions:
OMEMO defines KeyTransportMessages to be used to encrypt out-of-band non-message data like pictures or files or whatever you want. In reality these KTMs have become a tool to do manual ratchet forwarding/silent session creation in case a session is broken. So my question is: if you ever wanted to use KTMs for actual data, how would you even know, which KTM is for your photos, which one is for that pdf someone sent you and which one is just a ratchet forwarder? Is there any identification mechanism? If not, should we add one? And are there any XEPs using the KTM mechanism?
[12:23:16] *** UsL has joined the room
[12:24:20] <jonas’> Syndace, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0396.html this maybe?
[12:24:27] <jonas’> if KeyTransportElement == KeyTransportMessage
[12:24:32] *** genofire shows as "online"
[12:26:47] *** alexis has left the room
[12:27:01] *** daniel has left the room
[12:27:04] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:27:16] *** alexis has joined the room
[12:28:34] <Syndace> jonas’: Thanks, it is ^^
[12:28:35] <daniel> Syndace: I think the original plan was to just reuse the element somewhere as a sub element
[12:29:02] <Syndace> daniel: That's how it's done in the XEP that jonas' linked, makes a lot of sense
[12:29:16] <daniel> And that would give you the context
[12:29:50] <daniel> Yes I don't like that xep for various reasons. But it is a good demonstration on how it was originally intended to be used
[12:30:21] *** genofire has left the room
[12:30:31] *** daniel has left the room
[12:30:35] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:30:36] <Syndace> Okay cool. At least gives me a good hint on how to add KTMs to my lib...
[12:31:43] *** daniel has left the room
[12:31:47] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:33:50] *** McKael shows as "online"
[12:36:25] *** alexis has left the room
[12:36:51] *** alexis has joined the room
[12:37:36] *** daniel has left the room
[12:37:40] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:38:06] *** Jeremy shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:40:16] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:43:26] *** genofire shows as "online"
[12:44:46] *** pep. shows as "online"
[12:46:10] <ralphm> oli: I don't understand. People _already_ type markup like this, and I like that Conversations takes those hints. I don't really like that it retains the markers, though. Other messaging systems don't, when they interpret the plain text.
[12:46:35] *** alexis has left the room
[12:47:03] *** alexis has joined the room
[12:47:26] <jonas’> you must retain the markers when you make up markup out of thin air
[12:47:39] <jonas’> if we just had an out-of-band way to signal that the markers really are intended for markup....
[12:47:56] *** Jeremy shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:47:57] <pep.> If only
[12:48:54] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[12:50:08] *** daniel has left the room
[12:50:10] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:50:51] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[12:51:50] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[12:53:06] <daniel> I by the way have a work around for the _programmier_innen_ problem that probably shouldn't cause side effects
[12:53:14] <daniel> Will test this for a while
[12:53:32] <daniel> https://share.gultsch.de/daniel/1YQ0Fftaz84JZmZY/6h4kux4-TpOxZZMXs-4-MQ.jpg
[12:54:32] <daniel> Coming up with the parsing rules Was a process. It doesn't mean it has to end there. It can still be modified
[12:54:44] <daniel> That's what experimental xeps are for
[12:57:12] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[12:58:07] *** genofire has left the room
[12:59:24] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[12:59:58] *** rion has left the room
[12:59:59] *** rion has joined the room
[13:03:56] *** oli has joined the room
[13:08:29] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[13:10:36] *** UsL has joined the room
[13:13:49] <oli> done. i just disabled ImStyleParser. now i can write underlines without the italics. make the _usenet_ great again.
[13:17:05] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[13:17:07] *** Jeremy shows as "online"
[13:17:41] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[13:18:35] <ralphm> jonas’: haha
[13:21:43] *** Zash shows as "online"
[13:21:47] *** Zash shows as "online"
[13:24:08] *** marc_ has left the room
[13:25:40] *** Jeremy shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:25:48] *** !xsf_martin has joined the room
[13:26:13] *** alexis has left the room
[13:26:38] *** alexis has joined the room
[13:26:48] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[13:26:50] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[13:27:21] *** alexis has left the room
[13:27:47] *** alexis has joined the room
[13:34:38] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[13:34:40] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[13:35:11] *** !xsf_martin has left the room
[13:35:40] *** Jeremy shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:40:00] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[13:45:58] *** oli has left the room
[13:46:03] *** oli has joined the room
[13:48:44] *** !xsf_martin has joined the room
[13:48:46] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[13:49:25] *** !xsf_martin has left the room
[13:49:34] *** oli has joined the room
[13:49:46] *** !xsf_martin has joined the room
[13:49:46] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[13:49:46] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[13:49:46] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[13:49:56] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[13:49:56] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[13:49:57] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[13:49:57] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[13:49:57] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[13:49:57] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[13:49:57] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[13:49:57] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[13:49:57] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[13:49:57] *** !xsf_martin shows as "online"
[13:52:06] *** daniel has left the room
[13:53:38] *** daniel shows as "online"
[14:05:22] *** lumi shows as "online"
[14:05:27] *** pep. shows as "online"
[14:05:50] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[14:05:52] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[14:07:46] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
[14:12:12] *** marc has joined the room
[14:14:06] *** marc_ has joined the room
[14:18:10] *** daniel has left the room
[14:19:36] *** ThibG has left the room
[14:19:44] *** ThibG has joined the room
[14:24:05] *** 404.city has joined the room
[14:26:30] *** 404.city has left the room
[14:27:38] *** ThibG has left the room
[14:27:39] *** ThibG has joined the room
[14:28:02] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[14:29:05] *** lnj has joined the room
[14:30:12] *** Kev has joined the room
[14:30:12] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[14:30:12] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[14:30:13] *** Kev shows as "away"
[14:30:29] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[14:30:51] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[14:33:20] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[14:40:22] *** Jeremy shows as "online"
[14:42:29] *** oli has left the room
[14:42:31] *** oli has joined the room
[14:45:05] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[14:49:47] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[14:52:01] *** blabla has left the room
[14:52:07] *** blabla has joined the room
[14:58:14] *** Kev shows as "away"
[14:58:14] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[15:00:47] *** marc_ has left the room
[15:00:59] *** alexis has joined the room
[15:00:59] *** Kev shows as "away"
[15:00:59] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[15:02:09] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:02:10] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:03:23] *** lorddavidiii shows as "online"
[15:04:37] *** waqas has left the room
[15:04:40] *** waqas has joined the room
[15:12:31] *** Jeremy shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:15:19] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[15:18:53] <ta> > done. i just disabled ImStyleParser. now i can write underlines without the italics. make the _usenet_ great again.
Actually i'd like to see that in expert preferencies
[15:19:01] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[15:19:06] *** mimi89999 has joined the room
[15:19:53] *** marc has left the room
[15:20:14] *** marc has joined the room
[15:20:48] *** Jeremy shows as "online"
[15:20:49] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[15:21:24] *** waqas has left the room
[15:26:12] *** Jeremy shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:27:23] *** lovetox has joined the room
[15:29:08] *** lovetox has left the room
[15:29:21] *** lovetox has joined the room
[15:30:58] *** winfried has joined the room
[15:31:05] <oli> switching to propet old-school style?
[15:32:02] *** Jeremy shows as "online"
[15:32:16] *** Jeremy has left the room
[15:32:17] *** Holger has left the room
[15:33:35] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:36:33] *** 404.city has joined the room
[15:36:46] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[15:36:54] *** ThibG has joined the room
[15:38:29] *** marc has left the room
[15:38:41] *** marc has joined the room
[15:39:47] *** 404.city has left the room
[15:41:03] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[15:41:06] *** winfried has joined the room
[15:46:12] *** ThibG has left the room
[15:46:14] *** ThibG has joined the room
[15:46:39] *** genofire has joined the room
[15:46:39] *** marc_ has joined the room
[15:49:22] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[15:50:28] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[15:54:58] *** winfried has joined the room
[16:02:10] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[16:02:13] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[16:02:15] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[16:02:17] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[16:08:53] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:09:00] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:10:06] *** oli has joined the room
[16:12:13] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[16:23:51] *** alexis has left the room
[16:24:32] *** McKael shows as "online"
[16:33:30] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:33:54] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[16:35:10] *** krauq has joined the room
[16:38:17] *** Tobias has joined the room
[16:39:48] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[16:39:56] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[16:43:55] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[16:44:05] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[16:45:17] *** mimi89999 has joined the room
[16:46:30] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:50:23] *** genofire has left the room
[16:52:27] *** genofire has joined the room
[16:53:14] *** lskdjf has left the room
[16:53:16] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[16:59:15] *** Wiktor has joined the room
[17:03:39] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[17:03:47] *** alexis has joined the room
[17:04:34] *** alexis has left the room
[17:06:36] *** alexis has joined the room
[17:09:03] *** lnj has left the room
[17:11:36] *** marc has left the room
[17:11:45] *** marc has joined the room
[17:12:06] *** genofire has left the room
[17:13:01] *** genofire has joined the room
[17:13:46] *** Kev shows as "away"
[17:16:06] *** genofire shows as "online"
[17:20:33] *** alexis has left the room
[17:21:21] *** alexis has joined the room
[17:21:52] *** daniel has left the room
[17:21:54] *** daniel has joined the room
[17:22:36] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:23:35] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[17:25:53] *** frainz has left the room
[17:26:04] *** frainz has joined the room
[17:26:46] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[17:27:31] *** genofire shows as "online"
[17:28:01] *** alexis has left the room
[17:29:04] *** alexis has joined the room
[17:30:55] *** daniel has left the room
[17:31:00] *** daniel has joined the room
[17:32:08] *** daniel has left the room
[17:32:11] *** daniel has joined the room
[17:32:29] *** daniel has left the room
[17:32:32] *** daniel has joined the room
[17:33:10] *** Kev shows as "online"
[17:33:22] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[17:35:13] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:36:57] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:36:58] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:39:04] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[17:39:49] *** genofire shows as "online"
[17:40:30] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[17:42:59] *** daniel has left the room
[17:43:01] *** daniel has joined the room
[17:56:29] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:01:51] *** genofire has left the room
[18:01:54] *** genofire shows as "online"
[18:02:13] *** genofire shows as "online"
[18:02:48] *** Marc Laporte has joined the room
[18:03:12] *** genofire shows as "online"
[18:04:52] *** genofire shows as "online"
[18:05:03] *** l has left the room
[18:05:12] *** l has joined the room
[18:06:25] *** Marc Laporte has left the room
[18:06:45] *** Kev shows as "away"
[18:08:21] *** lumi shows as "online"
[18:10:17] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:11:29] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[18:13:32] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[18:20:17] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:25:06] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[18:27:17] *** !xsf_martin has left the room
[18:29:40] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[18:29:54] *** lumi shows as "online"
[18:34:21] *** UsL has left the room
[18:34:28] *** genofire shows as "online"
[18:35:06] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[18:36:59] *** genofire has left the room
[18:37:01] *** genofire shows as "online"
[18:37:26] *** alexis has left the room
[18:37:34] *** lovetox has left the room
[18:38:02] *** genofire has left the room
[18:38:05] *** genofire shows as "online"
[18:38:24] *** lovetox has joined the room
[18:38:58] *** APach has left the room
[18:39:34] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:42:56] *** igoose has left the room
[18:46:17] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:47:03] *** APach has joined the room
[18:47:22] *** genofire shows as "online"
[18:47:23] *** genofire has left the room
[18:51:43] *** Tobias has joined the room
[19:00:20] *** 404.city has joined the room
[19:01:36] *** rion shows as "online"
[19:08:09] *** igoose has joined the room
[19:11:54] *** dos has left the room
[19:11:59] *** dos shows as "online"
[19:18:04] *** ThibG has left the room
[19:18:09] *** ThibG has joined the room
[19:18:28] *** !xsf_martin has joined the room
[19:20:54] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[19:24:31] *** Tobias has joined the room
[19:25:35] *** Seve shows as "online"
[19:33:01] *** daniel has left the room
[19:33:17] *** ThibG has left the room
[19:33:19] *** ThibG has joined the room
[19:34:40] *** Wiktor shows as "online"
[19:52:19] *** Alex has joined the room
[19:54:25] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[19:54:57] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
[19:59:15] *** marc has left the room
[19:59:17] *** marc has joined the room
[20:00:57] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[20:02:31] *** ThibG has left the room
[20:02:33] *** ThibG has joined the room
[20:04:21] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
[20:06:27] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[20:10:54] *** oli has joined the room
[20:12:11] *** McKael shows as "online"
[20:14:06] *** winfried has joined the room
[20:23:40] *** winfried has left the room
[20:23:42] *** winfried has joined the room
[20:24:27] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[20:25:21] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[20:25:46] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
[20:29:09] *** UsL has joined the room
[20:32:24] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[20:33:21] *** 404.city has left the room
[20:38:42] *** ThibG has left the room
[20:38:44] *** ThibG has joined the room
[20:41:39] *** Yagiza has left the room
[20:43:32] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[20:45:33] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:47:03] *** waqas has joined the room
[20:48:00] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[20:49:32] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[20:49:40] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[20:50:56] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[20:51:54] *** winfried shows as "online"
[21:03:01] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[21:04:42] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[21:04:51] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[21:16:03] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[21:19:56] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:21:10] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[21:21:21] <vanitasvitae> https://upload.jabberhead.tk:5443/f0a454a3b03d017a262dfcfef56c2235742e325d/EweL3J5ZnfVQjrwbMfBuVaKojAwCnCtP2ZS0BG6v/0pgTCrRQSVusm4QBS9oICg.jpg
[21:21:41] <vanitasvitae> When you just want to game a little bit...
[21:21:49] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
[21:28:33] *** Zash shows as "online"
[21:28:42] *** Zash shows as "online"
[21:29:01] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[21:29:15] *** lumi shows as "online"
[21:29:29] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[21:31:44] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
[21:40:21] *** lnj has joined the room
[21:41:02] <ralphm> ⚔️
[21:46:15] *** ta has left the room
[21:46:52] *** ta shows as "online"
[21:46:54] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:49:48] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[21:49:55] *** edhelas has left the room
[21:50:30] *** edhelas has joined the room
[21:52:08] *** Kev shows as "online"
[21:52:25] *** Holger has left the room
[21:55:01] *** alexis has joined the room
[21:55:56] *** Holger has joined the room
[21:56:07] *** rion shows as "online"
[21:56:24] *** rion has left the room
[21:56:26] *** rion shows as "online"
[21:57:08] *** Holger has left the room
[21:57:14] *** Holger has joined the room
[21:57:27] *** lnj has left the room
[22:00:38] *** rion shows as "online"
[22:02:50] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[22:03:42] *** lumi shows as "online"
[22:05:36] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:08:57] *** Zash has left the room
[22:10:10] *** lnj has joined the room
[22:14:42] <alexde> Hope it got a good multiplayer: https://repl.it/site/blog/multi ...
[22:14:48] *** !xsf_martin has left the room
[22:15:50] *** rion has left the room
[22:22:25] *** edhelas shows as "online"
[22:27:15] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[22:27:22] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[22:32:29] *** waqas has left the room
[22:36:52] *** edhelas has left the room
[22:37:14] *** edhelas shows as "online"
[22:37:51] *** Syndace has left the room
[22:37:52] *** Syndace has joined the room
[22:38:45] *** Kev shows as "away"
[22:38:47] *** marc has left the room
[22:38:58] *** marc has joined the room
[22:40:23] *** krauq has joined the room
[22:41:20] *** MattJ shows as "dnd"
[22:41:26] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[22:41:27] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[22:43:48] *** edhelas has left the room
[22:44:39] *** edhelas shows as "online"
[22:47:30] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[22:47:47] *** edhelas has left the room
[22:48:20] *** l has left the room
[22:48:21] *** edhelas shows as "online"
[22:48:24] *** l has joined the room
[22:49:54] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:49:59] *** waqas has joined the room
[22:50:01] *** marc_ has left the room
[22:55:07] *** Alex has left the room
[22:55:12] *** mightyBroccoli has left the room
[22:55:14] *** mightyBroccoli has joined the room
[22:55:23] *** genofire shows as "online"
[22:57:08] *** Ge0rG shows as "dnd"
[22:58:01] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[23:00:21] *** edhelas has left the room
[23:02:25] *** lnj has left the room
[23:02:32] *** thorsten has joined the room
[23:03:14] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[23:03:18] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[23:03:18] *** lnj has joined the room
[23:04:52] *** ta has left the room
[23:04:56] *** ta shows as "online"
[23:05:56] *** thorsten has joined the room
[23:10:06] *** alexde has left the room
[23:13:11] *** thorsten has joined the room
[23:13:14] *** thorsten has left the room
[23:14:57] *** thorsten has joined the room
[23:15:03] *** oli has joined the room
[23:17:18] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[23:19:23] *** thorsten shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available."
[23:20:36] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[23:22:32] *** lumi shows as "online"
[23:26:02] *** genofire has left the room
[23:26:05] *** genofire shows as "online"
[23:28:45] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:29:18] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:30:32] *** Tobias has joined the room
[23:34:50] *** krauq has joined the room
[23:38:45] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:41:23] *** oli has left the room
[23:41:25] *** oli has joined the room
[23:41:34] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[23:44:29] *** dos has left the room
[23:44:43] *** dos shows as "online"
[23:52:23] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[23:58:45] *** l has left the room
[23:58:50] *** l has joined the room
[23:58:53] *** genofire shows as "online"