Tuesday, December 18, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[10:12:48] <Ge0rG> Will MUC subject changes also be stored in a MUC's offline history and replayed on join?
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[10:25:51] <lovetox> not to my knowledge Ge0rG
[10:26:00] <lovetox> this would be akward
[10:26:49] <Ge0rG> indeed
[10:27:04] <lovetox> im not sure why though, its just a gut feeling
[10:28:35] <lovetox> it would be weird in combination with MAM
[10:28:48] <Maranda> Not replayed in history *shrugs*
[10:28:49] <lovetox> because if you join with max=0 history
[10:29:04] <lovetox> then you still receive the subject from the MUC
[10:29:08] <lovetox> and afterwards you request MAM
[10:29:11] <Maranda> Indeed

[10:29:19] <lovetox> and get a bunch of subject changes
[10:29:30] <lovetox> but you have the timestamp so you could sort them correctly
[10:29:47] <Ge0rG> > because if you join with max=0 history [..] and afterwards you request MAM
Are there potential race conditions between sync and live traffic?
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[10:30:32] <lovetox> i dont think so because you have timestamps
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[10:31:11] <Ge0rG> 1. join
2. request MAM since $last_timestamp
3. live message comes in
4. MAM comes in, eventually containing that last live message
[10:31:42] <oli> why awkward? subject changes could be part and context of a conversation.
[10:31:50] <Maranda> At most, at least I, record only in http logs the subject changes not the rest
[10:31:58] <lovetox> oli i meant protocol wise akward
[10:32:05] <lovetox> not that it couldnt be useful
[10:32:11] <Ge0rG> oli: because a client might think "the sync is completed"
[10:32:21] <oli> right
[10:32:55] <lovetox> Ge0rG, you case is does not lead to problems with mam:2
[10:33:04] <lovetox> because of stanza-id deduplication
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[10:33:12] <Maranda> oli: it's not stated in the protocol to begin with that subject changes should go in the history (or otherwise, but it goes against the intentions me thinks)
[10:33:23] <Ge0rG> I normally don't deduplicate for live messages, only for MAM syncup
[10:33:44] <lovetox> true .. i remember i also dont
[10:34:04] <lovetox> but i throw away all messages while a MAM MUC catchup is running
[10:34:08] <lovetox> or something like that
[10:34:25] <lovetox> i considererd this case, thats what i remember
[10:34:38] <Ge0rG> We really need to document all these hairy corner cases
[10:34:46] <Ge0rG> also notification suppression
[10:35:00] <Ge0rG> Just had a similar discussion with Anu yesterday
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[10:35:49] <Zash> Did you know: Normal groupchat messages are allowed to have a subject if they have a body too
[10:36:12] <lovetox> ah i remember now Ge0rG this still does work with deduplication
[10:36:21] <lovetox> because live message gets written into the db first
[10:36:29] <lovetox> then mam message comes, and you dedup on that
[10:36:41] <Ge0rG> Zash: normal != groupchat
[10:37:15] <lovetox> he just means groupchat messages
[10:37:26] <lovetox> you have to filter on "has subject but not body"
[10:37:34] <Zash> <message type=groupchat><subject>stuff</subject><body>Let's talk about stuff</body></message>
[10:37:38] <lovetox> to catch a subject, not just "has subject"
[10:37:42] <Zash> That is *not* a MUC subject change
[10:37:55] <Zash> Just a groupchat message that happens to have a subject
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[11:24:41] <ralphm> Indeed. “Note: In accordance with the core definition of XML stanzas, any message can contain a <subject/> element; only a message that contains a <subject/> but no <body/> element shall be considered a subject change for MUC purposes.”
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[11:26:08] <Ge0rG> Some MUC implementation forbid messages having both body and subject.
[11:26:28] <Ge0rG> Still, it doesn't answer my question of whether it's legal to have a subject change in MUC history
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[11:29:53] <ralphm> I don't see why it shouldn't be in there.
[11:30:47] <Ge0rG> ralphm: because of https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#order
[11:31:23] <Ge0rG> Of course there are also servers that *don't* send the subject at all if it's not set, so...
[11:32:14] <ralphm> Ge0rG: I still don't see the issue. If you are sending message history, that's not 'live messages'
[11:32:47] <lovetox> i think this is not easy to implement for servers
[11:32:48] <Ge0rG> ralphm: a client needs to be able to distinguish history from live messages
[11:32:56] <lovetox> they only should put the first subject change into the archive
[11:33:12] <lovetox> afterwards they send the subject to many users, but should not put it into the archive anymore
[11:33:52] <Ge0rG> lovetox: every subject change should be in the archive
[11:33:57] <ralphm> They already should, no? Message history stanzas have a <delay/> with a from attribute.
[11:34:12] <lovetox> ralphm, from attr is not mandatory
[11:34:21] <lovetox> and servers dont enforce it
[11:34:24] <Ge0rG> ralphm: a <delay/> with a from is not exclusive to history.
[11:34:33] <lovetox> also all other messages can also have delay
[11:34:34] <Ge0rG> so it's a good indicator, at best.
[11:35:08] <lovetox> also the room subject itself can have a delay
[11:35:08] <ralphm> Hmm. It says here in 7.2.14: Note well that this means the room subject (and changes to the room subject prior to the current subject) are not part of the discussion history.
[11:35:20] <ralphm> Well, that sucks
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[11:37:19] <Ge0rG> ralphm: ah, thanks. Didn't see that.
[11:37:53] <lovetox> why are you interested in this Ge0rG? are you writing code regarding to subject changes?
[11:38:08] <ralphm> Good thing that's resolved with MIX.
[11:38:17] <ralphm> I.e. there's no subject there, at all.
[11:38:28] <Ge0rG> lovetox: I have some legacy code about subject changes. Also a race condition between receiving the subject and receiving the room's disco#info on join
[11:38:42] <ralphm> Fortunately, if you want to add such functionality, you'd just have another node for just the room subject.
[11:39:00] <lovetox> yeah separation is good for that
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[11:39:12] <lovetox> Ge0rG, dont you want to disco the muc before you join?
[11:39:36] <lovetox> thats recommended if you want to use mam when i remember correctly
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[11:54:16] <Ge0rG> lovetox: I'll have to change that then
[11:54:45] <lovetox> the problem with mam is, that if you join a muc without knowing if it is mam capable
[11:54:58] <lovetox> you have to use history in the join, because you dont know about mam
[11:55:08] <lovetox> because you can do a join with max=0
[11:55:14] <lovetox> and then get the history later
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[11:55:23] <lovetox> cant*
[11:55:51] <lovetox> you have to specifiy on join if you want history or not, so you already need to know about mam
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[11:56:54] <lovetox> and to make that process faster on rejoins, i would also cache that disco information
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[12:21:16] <Ge0rG> Yay.
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[19:03:11] <Alex> hey guys, ready for our member meeting?
[19:04:30] <Seve> o/
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[19:05:29] <Zash> woop
[19:05:47] <Alex> okay
[19:05:54] *Alex bangs the gavel
[19:06:01] <Alex> here is our Agenda for today
[19:06:04] <Alex> https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-12-18
[19:06:16] <Alex> 1) Call for Quorum
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[19:06:41] <Alex> as you can see 30 members voted via memberbot, so we have a quorum
[19:06:54] <Alex> 2) Items Subject to a Vote
[19:07:23] <Alex> new and returning members, you can see all applicants here:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2018
[19:07:35] <Alex> 3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
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[19:08:13] <Alex> anyone here who has not voted yet via memberbot and wants to vote now?
[19:09:36] <Alex> ok, looks like I can start working on the results then
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[19:12:21] <Seve> Good! :)
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[19:14:23] <Alex> 4) Announcement of Voting Results
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[19:14:50] <Alex> when you reload the page you can see the results at:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-12-18#Announcement_of_Voting_Results
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[19:15:42] <Alex> all Reappliers accepted, no new applicants this term
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[19:15:46] <Alex> congrats to everyone
[19:16:04] <Seve> Congratulations :)
[19:16:07] <Seve> THank you Alex
[19:16:23] <Alex> 5) Any Other Business?
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[19:17:36] <Zash> Not here
[19:18:16] <Guus> Nor here
[19:18:26] <Alex> 6) Formal Adjournment
[19:18:33] <Alex> I motion that we adjourn
[19:18:58] <Guus> Second
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[19:19:51] <Guus> -ed
[19:20:04] <Zash> +ed²
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[19:21:26] <Guus> Thank you once again, Alex
[19:21:28] *Alex bangs the gavel
[19:21:50] <Link Mauve> Thanks. :)
[19:21:52] <Alex> thank you guys, will send out minutes and update the memebrlist ASAP
[19:22:33] <Zash> Thanks Alex
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[19:25:31] <Ge0rG> Thanks very much. Happy to hear I wasn't demoted.
[19:26:16] <Alex> :-P
[19:28:14] <Ge0rG> Also what's wrong with you guys? I troll and curse all the time and don't get any negative votes!?
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[19:32:31] <jonas’> Ge0rG, nobody wants to have to repeat the council vote probably ;-)
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[19:33:12] <Ge0rG> Heh!
[19:33:38] <jonas’> or, y’know, they value your nevertheless useful technical contributions...
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[19:35:04] <Ge0rG> Can't imagine *that*
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