Thursday, December 20, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[01:46:52] <moparisthebest> https://burtrum.org/up/1c2f67f1-92c3-4340-8c77-a04bc8ccf85c/bHXnBWvGS-mnfKxuKEngdg.gif
[01:47:00] <moparisthebest> This must be the logo
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[10:09:52] <Guus> what the...
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[10:10:07] <Guus> I'm gone _one day_ and I see logo's in flaming letters?
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[10:24:10] <pep.> moparisthebest: you get my vote
[10:24:20] <pep.> Run for presidency
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[10:30:34] <jonas’> executive director?
[10:30:37] <edhelas> not enough lasers and metallic letters to me
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[11:37:39] <Guus> lasers only go on sharks (and the occasional ill-tempered bass), not logos
[11:38:01] <jonas’> Guus, pft, raptors!
[11:38:04] <jonas’> laserraptors!
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[11:38:45] <Guus> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh7bYNAHXxw
[11:39:14] <Ge0rG> I want a president riding on a bear.
[11:39:19] <jonas’> a laserraptor!
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[11:45:34] <Guus> Ge0rG will you settle for an action figure? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Putin-Riding-Bear-Action-Figure/dp/B00X61MVE8
[11:47:03] <Ge0rG> Guus: sure thing, even with the printing on the package being beyond broken
[11:48:43] *Ge0rG also just realized how much this is also a pun on the strawman president Putin had between his presidencies
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[14:29:30] <Guus> Although I sent apologies for missing the upcoming board meeting, I unexpectedly managed to make it in time.
[14:29:39] <Seve> Great
[14:29:44] <Guus> ("woohoo!" "yeah!")
[14:29:47] <Guus> thanks Seve 🙂
[14:29:57] <nyco> hey
[14:30:17] <MattJ> :)
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[14:31:21] *Guus pods & pokes at ralphm
[14:31:23] *ralphm bangs gavel
[14:31:35] <Guus> prrrods...nevermind
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[14:31:58] <ralphm> 0. Welcome
[14:32:05] <ralphm> It seems we have everyone.
[14:32:20] <ralphm> Dave raised a point about XEP-0412, so that's on the agenda.
[14:32:21] *Seve is here
[14:32:52] <nyco> it's even in Trello board
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[14:33:06] <Guus> I have nothing else for the agenda
[14:33:21] <MattJ> Me neither
[14:33:33] <nyco> prios?
[14:33:42] <nyco> the former board handed it over
[14:34:40] <ralphm> I don't think they did.
[14:35:08] <ralphm> But I see you added it as a card, so it is on the agenda
[14:35:09] <MattJ> Useless bunch
[14:35:38] <ralphm> 1. Note taker
[14:35:43] <ralphm> dwd around?
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[14:37:17] <ralphm> Guess not.
[14:37:31] <ralphm> Continuing as we have a bunch of items.
[14:37:54] <ralphm> 2. XEP-0412, Compliance Suites 2019
[14:38:34] <ralphm> I agree with Guus' comments on the board list: let's create a place holder for this XEP until such time it is clear what the Council decides.
[14:38:45] <ralphm> Probably similar to what was done for XEP-0028.
[14:38:50] <Guus> As I've replied on the board list (which is not publicly accessible, so let me repeat: I'm against keeping a XEP that was prematurely published around.
[14:38:54] <nyco> Guus's words make sense, indeed
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[14:39:06] <MattJ> wfm
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[14:39:25] <ralphm> jonas’: can you take care of this?
[14:39:27] <Guus> for the record:
My main argument is that third parties might take the fact that it is published as a reason to start work based on it. As long as there's a chance that the XEP will be revoked/unpublished, we should take steps to avoid people from spending resources on something that we're not sure of yet.
[14:39:34] <nyco> the probability that it happens again is non-zero
so let's revert like code can be in a repo
[14:39:42] <Guus>
Second, I don't like how this can be perceived as putting pressure on council members that yet need to vote. A veto now will cause more issues (having to retract the XEP), which takes away from the freedom of choice of these council members. I'm sure that Kev can hold its own, but lets not create a precedent here. We can prevent this by rolling back before the remaining council members cast their vote.
[14:39:57] <Guus> ralphm I don't think jonas’ has access to that mailing list
[14:40:01] <Guus> so he would not have seen my response.
[14:40:06] <Guus> or suggestion to fix
[14:40:10] <nyco> the pressure might be already felt, by mistake of course
[14:40:17] <ralphm> nyco: the problem is that the number was given out, and if there's going to be any XEP for this, it should be the one for compliance suites, or a tombstone.
[14:40:41] <ralphm> Guus: I just wrote the fix above: like XEP-0028
[14:40:42] <nyco> that's only a technical workaround
[14:41:02] <Guus> I'm not sure what happened with XEP-0028, ralphm
[14:41:28] <ralphm> I'm happy to link it here: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0028.html
[14:41:59] <Guus> ah, ok, that never got replaced/restored, but is retracted 🙂
[14:42:05] <ralphm> I'm not sure if it should be removed from source control, though. Just adding a new commit with a notice like this should suffice.
[14:42:06] <Guus> yeah, something similar would work.
[14:42:16] <nyco> XEP-0028: No Such XEP
XEP-0412: No More Such XEP
XEP-0412: Like XEP-0028
[14:42:51] <ralphm> I'm sure the Editor Team can resolve this.
[14:43:02] <nyco> yep, not our duty
[14:43:11] <Guus> The Editor Team being just jonas’ nowadays?
[14:43:18] <ralphm> nyco: instructing them what to do in this case is, so we just did.
[14:43:33] <ralphm> Guus: no, but he added this particular commit
[14:43:54] <Guus> who else is editor? Sam's membership expired.
[14:44:13] <Guus> https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/editor-team <-- ah, a bunch
[14:44:21] <ralphm> I don't think think so, work teams don't have an expiry, I think.
[14:44:25] <nyco> there is a card "Call for editors" in our Trello board
[14:44:51] <Guus> can non-members be part of a work team?
[14:45:28] <Seve> When taking back the CommTeam, only members were accepted
[14:45:33] <ralphm> Guus: no
[14:45:53] <ralphm> “Participation in Teams shall be limited to elected Members of the Corporation.”
[14:46:05] <Guus> So, Sam's out, to my disappointment.
[14:46:17] <ralphm> Ah.
[14:46:27] <ralphm> Good point
[14:47:15] <ralphm> moving on
[14:47:24] <ralphm> 3. Compliance Suites (again)
[14:47:38] <ralphm> This point is about the discussion we had last week, regarding badges
[14:47:56] <ralphm> Dave suggested, on list, something that was also mention in the meeting:
[14:48:36] <ralphm> “So I suggest we run an Experiment. This experiment would have some badges that developers can claim on their projects, fully self-certified (ie, we do not attempt to create a compliance suite). The Badges themselves - the images used - would remain copyright XSF - I don't think we need the full weight of trademark law. We agree to revisit the scheme in 6 months and assess how it's being used.”
[14:48:54] <ralphm> I'd like to put this up for a vote.
[14:48:54] <MattJ> wfm
[14:48:56] <ralphm> +1
[14:48:57] <MattJ> +1
[14:49:06] <nyco> yep, plus one
[14:49:19] <nyco> try and iterate, I like that
[14:49:23] <Guus> "ie, we do not attempt to create a compliance suite" <-- that does not relate to the XEP, but instead to an automated verification tool, right?
[14:49:39] <ralphm> yes
[14:49:42] <nyco> we'll see what we make of it
[14:49:51] <Guus> +1
[14:49:55] <nyco> given the experience and feedback
[14:50:00] <ralphm> Seve?
[14:50:26] <Seve> Not sure yet, honestly, it is a bit abstract, but I like to try and iterate as nyco said
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[14:50:58] <ralphm> is that a +0?
[14:51:00] <Seve> I'm +0
[14:51:02] <ralphm> Ok
[14:51:04] <Seve> Yes, thanks ralphm
[14:51:07] <nyco> or -0 ?
[14:51:15] <ralphm> Motion carries.
[14:51:44] <Guus> I've added a trello card on a backburner list, for us to remember to evaluate this in +6M
[14:51:51] <ralphm> I'll discuss with dwd how to move forward to actually have images that represent a badge.
[14:51:54] <ralphm> Guus: thanks
[14:52:09] <ralphm> 4. Call for Editors
[14:52:09] <Guus> do we need to facilitate the badges being created?
[14:52:16] <nyco> I have a graphic designer who may help us
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[14:52:41] <ralphm> if someone volunteers to create such badges, that's be great
[14:52:50] <ralphm> 'd
[14:53:00] <Guus> nyco if he'd be interested, that would be great
[14:53:04] <Guus> could you ping him?
[14:53:05] <nyco> she
[14:53:09] <Guus> her
[14:53:13] <nyco> I'm on it
[14:53:16] <ralphm> Cool
[14:53:16] <Guus> thanks
[14:53:20] <ralphm> Now, onto #4
[14:53:29] <ralphm> So this was raised by Dave on list
[14:53:53] <ralphm> But I suggested that Council should issue this call, as they actually appoint candidates.
[14:53:56] <Guus> (I didn't see Dave's mail)
[14:54:03] <ralphm> or really, they select them and we appoint
[14:54:21] <Guus> Our website lists 6 editors, one of which is Sam. We furher have Kev, PSA, Jonas', Flow and JCBrand
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[14:54:32] <ralphm> Mail from 2018-12-12, included this:
[14:54:36] <ralphm> “>
> 1) XSF Editor - this team needs more members. Could you put out a call? (I meant to ask last week, actually).

Given your charter, with the XMPP Council selecting volunteers and presenting them to the Board for approval, I believe it would be proper for you to put out the call to our membership. ”
[14:54:47] <ralphm> (the latter is my reply)
[14:55:21] <ralphm> Dave agreed and would.
[14:55:26] <Guus> I'm happy for either to issue that call.
[14:55:39] <ralphm> So I think this item is handled.
[14:56:04] <ralphm> 5. GSoC
[14:56:23] <Guus> I sent a request for help to the mailing list, but did not get any response
[14:56:24] <ralphm> We put out a request for an admin. Have we gotten candidates yet?
[14:56:29] <ralphm> ok
[14:56:35] <ralphm> Keeping this one on.
[14:56:42] <ralphm> Let's nudge in the new year
[14:56:50] <Guus> let's not keep it to long though
[14:57:02] <Guus> strive to decide one way or the other mid january?
[14:57:05] <ralphm> Guus: agreed
[14:57:11] <nyco> yep
[14:57:22] <ralphm> 6. Summit / FOSDEM
[14:57:29] <ralphm> I don't have anything to report.
[14:57:42] <Guus> nor me.
[14:57:52] <nyco> me neither
[14:58:06] <ralphm> 7. Meeting with Peter
[14:58:10] <nyco> ah
[14:58:15] <ralphm> Still pending.
[14:58:19] <nyco> 😢
[14:58:38] <ralphm> 8. Board Priorities
[14:58:49] <ralphm> nyco says this was carried over.
[14:59:25] <nyco> so this is a subject that the former board has passed on, like a hot potatoe
do we want to commit to prios? or we drop it? (or any other option?)
[14:59:59] <Guus> given the ineffectiveness of last board on this (them slackers!), I wonder if this has any practical use.
[15:00:04] <nyco> I have the feeling that the board resolves issues as they arrive
we may bot have common, shared, larger goals
[15:00:48] <MattJ> I think in general the board's role here is to enable most of these things to happen
[15:01:04] <MattJ> We established SCAM for meetups, for example, and I think that's going well
[15:01:13] *ralphm nods
[15:01:21] <MattJ> The main thing blocking many other priorities is funding
[15:01:27] <Guus> Sure, we need to do stuff (c)(r), but do we need a defined list of priorities for that to happen?
[15:01:28] <MattJ> which is something we are focusing on
[15:01:35] <nyco> MattJ and time
[15:01:41] <MattJ> so I don't have any problems with the board's current tasks
[15:01:59] <MattJ> i.e. setting a priority is fine, but it has to translate to action items. What are those?
[15:02:18] <MattJ> This was my problem with all the previous discussions about priorities
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[15:02:29] <nyco> correct: prios > actions
do we want to support that train of thoughts?
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[15:03:04] <MattJ> Sure
[15:04:16] <ralphm> So we continue as we have.
[15:04:22] <ralphm> wfm
[15:04:54] <MattJ> My #1 priority is fixing our funding problems
[15:05:02] <ralphm> Agreed
[15:05:14] <nyco> how? what actions have (expected) impact?
[15:05:51] <nyco> I guess fixing the following up with sponsors would be a great start, and a big effort
[15:06:08] <nyco> XSF sponsorship AND Summit's
[15:06:12] <MattJ> We have totally failed at dealing with our sponsors for the past few years (at least). ralphm and Guus are working towards fixing that (with help from stpeter)
[15:06:40] <ralphm> Well, we need to clean up our list of sponsors, assess our current financial situation with Peter, and then come up with an idea of what we want to do. E.g. the Summit always costs us money, and if we want to do more, we would need money.
[15:06:50] <MattJ> With funds coming in, we'll be able to better fund meetups and such, which was the main priority we discussed after the survey results were processed
[15:07:01] <ralphm> Right, I'm trying to schedule a meeting before end-of-year
[15:07:32] <nyco> let's not expect fixing sponsorship will fix lots of pain points
[15:07:45] <nyco> let's not expect fixing sponsorship will resolve lots of pain points
[15:08:05] <Guus> it's a place to start.
[15:08:26] <nyco> ok then
[15:08:32] <nyco> I generally agree
[15:08:36] <ralphm> Sponsorship is our only source of money, so yeah, it does
[15:09:20] <ralphm> The other resource is people, and that's a tough one to resolve in general.
[15:09:46] <ralphm> 9. AOB?
[15:09:48] <ralphm> ?
[15:09:52] <nyco> none from me
[15:09:57] <MattJ> None here
[15:10:02] <ralphm> 10. Date of Next
[15:10:07] <ralphm> +1W, provisionally
[15:10:17] <nyco> ok
[15:10:18] <ralphm> I think I can attend
[15:10:24] <Guus> with the holidays, all bets are off for me
[15:10:32] <Guus> (As in, I'll have to get permission from my wife 😉 )
[15:10:38] <Seve> I should be able to attend as well
[15:10:45] <ralphm> 11. Close
[15:10:48] <ralphm> Thanks all!
[15:10:52] *ralphm bangs gavel
[15:11:04] <nyco> thx all! 😉
[15:11:10] <Seve> Thank you guys
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[15:11:23] <Guus> happy holidays!
[15:11:24] <MattJ> Thanks
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[15:30:51] <Ge0rG> No news about the Trademark license I asked Board about?
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[16:00:08] <jonas’> thanks for the ruling, board, will take care of it immediately
[16:00:43] <jonas’> can someone confirm though that I’m reading the backlog correctly in the sense that board prefers the XEP to be un-published?
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[16:02:25] <Link Mauve> Yes.
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[16:24:31] <ralphm> jonas’: in such a way that there's a place holder, like with XEP-0028. Feel free to craft a reasonable message.
[16:24:39] <jonas’> did both
[16:24:44] <jonas’> build is in progress
[16:24:48] <ralphm> Yay
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[17:07:51] <jonas’> ralphm, FYI https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0412.html
[17:08:03] <jonas’> there’s no state which has a more fitting "red text below the metadata" unfortunately
[17:08:07] <jonas’> (and that’s generated by the templating stuff)
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[17:13:37] <ralphm> I think it is fine like this. Thanks!
[17:14:51] <jonas’> you’re welcome I guess? :)
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[17:54:19] <Ge0rG> So glad we have a process for that. It would have been a horrible oversight if we just waited for the last council member to vote.
[17:55:27] <Ge0rG> If only somebody had remembered that process after XEP-0403...
[17:55:43] <jonas’> hm?
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[18:13:38] <pep.> To have it as 404
[18:15:33] <edhelas> pep. :p
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[18:17:19] <pep.> jonas’, I don't guarantee I have time to help with editing as an everyday^H^H^H week thing, but is there anything that I can help automate maybe?
[18:17:30] *pep. doesn't know anything about editors' work
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[19:23:07] <jonas’> pep., most stuff which can be automated is already
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[19:23:37] <jonas’> the only thing I’m missing is something which hooks on the finished docker builds and tells me that they’re done, so that I can send the emails
[19:24:14] <jonas’> (the email sending is 99% automated, but I’m paranoid and I we agreed on not sending out mails for editorial changes to keep the Signal/Noise ratio good, and that’s not implemented in the tool yet)
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[19:24:23] <jonas’> (the email sending is 99% automated, but I’m paranoid and we agreed on not sending out mails for editorial changes to keep the Signal/Noise ratio good, and that’s not implemented in the tool yet)
[19:24:47] <jonas’> soo… if you’re inclined to make a thing which receives the docker-build-has-finished webhook and sends me a message, that’d be good
[19:24:55] <jonas’> via jabber, preferably
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[19:25:12] <jonas’> because when it comes via jabber, i can easily hook my buildbots into doing the email sending once I’m confident that the tooling will do the right thing
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[19:27:49] <Link Mauve> PubSub!
[19:28:12] <jonas’> Link Mauve, also good
[19:28:28] <jonas’> the buildbots are based on pubsub already ... buuuut I’d have to modify them to be able to subscribe to more than one node
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