Friday, December 21, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[09:55:47] <Guus> jonas’, as per MattJ suggestion, I merged both -docker projects of the observatory into the original project. With that, I think we can drop the docker-specific projects, unless you object.
[09:55:58] <jonas’> wfm
[09:56:06] <jonas’> you need to take care to setup the docker hub thing though
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[09:56:40] <Guus> ehh... I'll try 🙂
[09:56:53] <Guus> I've also invited xnyphs, btw.
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[09:58:01] <Guus> maybe create a corresponding xmpp-observatory account on docker hub?
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[10:10:34] <MattJ> Guus: thanks! How did you deal with the submodules?
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[10:24:00] *Ge0rG was asked about a windows client that supports XEP-0184 and was once again disappointed about us officially endorsing Pidgin
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[10:27:10] <Guus> MattJ what submodules?
[10:27:16] <Guus> (I did not)
[10:27:52] <Link Mauve> Ge0rG, did Gajim not work?
[10:29:10] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: I don't know
[10:29:25] <Link Mauve> Why did you recommend Pidgin over it then?
[10:31:24] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: I'm speaking of the listing at https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html which I wanted to be a list of *actively maintained* clients.
[10:32:02] <Link Mauve> And out of all of the actively maintained clients, you picked Pidgin?
[10:32:10] <Ge0rG> but then somebody submitted Pidgin, and because we are neutral, we can not resist its addition, despite everybody on our side knowing how harmful it is.
[10:32:16] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: no.
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[10:32:28] <Link Mauve> Oh, now I understand.
[10:32:30] <Link Mauve> Sorry.
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[10:47:32] <MattJ> Guus: no worries, I'll figure something out in the Dockerfile I think
[10:47:53] <Guus> @mattj, i just finished setting up docker hub builds for both projects
[10:48:04] <Guus> do you have an account there? I'd like to add you.
[10:48:04] <MattJ> Thanks!
[10:48:11] <MattJ> mwild1
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[10:49:11] <Guus> added: https://cloud.docker.com/u/xmppobservatory
[10:49:13] <MattJ> Got it, thanks
[10:49:27] <Guus> I think that's about what I know what/how to do
[10:49:48] <Guus> I didn't remove the old -docker projects yet, but that can be done now, I think.
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[10:50:02] <MattJ> Don't yet
[10:50:03] <Guus> maybe I'd be good if you verify first that I didn't make to many obvious mistakes.
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[10:50:27] <MattJ> Pretty sure the new stuff will not build correctly yet
[10:51:11] <MattJ> It was using submodules for pulling in some dependencies
[10:51:41] <Guus> unsure if the migration thingy I used merged those
[10:51:53] <Guus> I didn't notice hg submodules (nor did I check for them)
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[10:52:31] <Guus> I'm not seeing a .gitmodules, so it probably didn't migrate.
[10:52:55] <MattJ> I don't remember what they all are, but at least one of them we were going to drop, and probably any others should be too
[10:53:35] <MattJ> Some were hg repos, so it would have needed to migrate those
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[10:54:04] <Guus> Can I leave this in your capable hands?
[10:54:14] <MattJ> Which wouldn't be ideal anyway, since they are separate projects I maintain in hg
[10:54:16] <MattJ> Sure
[10:54:54] <Guus> Thanks. Do we need submodules, or can we use a shared artifact somehow perhaps?
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[10:56:06] <MattJ> If needed I'll just make the dockerfile clone the dependencies itself
[10:56:16] <Guus> for what its worth, that already seems to happen a lot
[10:56:56] <Guus> What's probably not ideal is that the dockerfile clones RUN hg clone https://bitbucket.org/mattj/xmppoke 🙂
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[10:57:15] <Guus> What's probably not ideal is that the dockerfile clones https://bitbucket.org/mattj/xmppoke 🙂
[10:57:41] <Guus> (I blindly merged the projects, didn't update any references)
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[11:37:24] <Ge0rG> Is the call for logo design published anywhere? I've had a logo designer asking me about redoing the yaxim logo some months ago, but I like my logo very much so I'd rather ask them to do something for the wider community
[11:37:45] <Guus> jonas’ should we move the xmppoke-queue project too?
[11:38:11] <Guus> Ge0rG I don't believe that there's an explicit call, no.
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[11:38:36] <Guus> Ge0rG I suggest you coordinate with nyco, who had a designer of his own in mind.
[11:38:41] <Ge0rG> Will there be one?
[11:39:16] <Ge0rG> What would be the best non-ephemeral venue for that? issue on github/xmpp.org?
[11:39:20] <Guus> Board didn't discuss that, so I guess not? Is there a need for such an explicit call?
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[11:39:51] <Guus> the mailing list, perhaps?
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[11:40:22] <Ge0rG> Guus: standards is obviously not the right place, members is for members only; there is no public ML suitable for that.
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[11:41:01] <Guus> You are more precise than I am in these things 🙂
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[12:01:52] <ralphm> I don't think we need to send out such a call just yet
[12:02:12] <ralphm> I'm going to first wait that nyco comes back with
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[12:07:21] <Ge0rG> ralphm: alright. I was just assuming that volunteers might have some time between the holidays
[12:08:29] <ralphm> If people want to volunteer, they can, I just didn't think we needed to put out a call for it.
[12:09:11] <ralphm> Also, I don't think we have minutes for this Board meeting yet. Someone volunteering to do those would be awesome.
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[13:10:53] <Guus> MattJ I ran into those modules you referred to. I worked around them being gone in git by pulling them in through the docker file, as you suggested: https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/xmppoke/pull/1
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[13:13:15] <Guus> when running things locally, I see that xmppoke is invoked when I start a test through the frontend, but it stops immediately.
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[13:14:01] <erkanfiles> Test
[13:14:28] <Guus> a-ok.
[13:14:42] <erkanfiles> ralphm: Still in need for a minutes writer?
[13:15:13] <Guus> erkanfiles yes
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[13:15:24] <Ge0rG> erkanfiles: 👍
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[13:39:44] <erkanfiles> So I only have to scroll up in this MUC or where to find the content?
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[13:40:29] <Ge0rG> erkanfiles: the official log is at http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-12-20#14:28:50 - in case you don't have full history in your client
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[13:41:13] <erkanfiles> K
[13:41:31] <erkanfiles> Where may I submit my results?
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[13:45:47] <Ge0rG> erkanfiles: they are typically sent to board@xmpp.org and members@xmpp.org (which are probably both members-only) and you can pastebin them in case you want a second opinion.
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[14:14:56] <erkanfiles> So I couldnt join because of not being member, right?
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[14:16:58] <daniel> stupid question. someone recenctly send me this <message><foo:bar>hi</foo:bar></message/>. is this valid xmpp/xml?
[14:18:07] <Link Mauve> daniel, if an xmlns:foo="something" has been defined on foo:bar or any of its ancestors..
[14:18:09] <Link Mauve> daniel, if an xmlns:foo="something" has been defined on foo:bar or any of its ancestors.
[14:18:24] <daniel> what if it is not?
[14:18:30] <Link Mauve> Then it’s invalid XML.
[14:19:28] <daniel> because : is a reserved char that can not be used for element names even though xmpp doesn’t use that kind of namespace prefixes?
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[14:20:30] <Link Mauve> : in an element name means that what is before : is a prefix, that must have been bound to a namespace, and what is after is a local name to this namespace.
[14:20:40] <jonas’> Link Mauve, only if you’re talikng XML 1.0 + Namespaces
[14:20:50] <jonas’> in vanilla XML 1.0, you can use : without namespaces
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[14:20:53] <Link Mauve> jonas’, isn’t that what XMPP is using?
[14:20:58] <Link Mauve> jonas’, uh, really? :|
[14:21:12] <Link Mauve> I wasn’t aware that XML could be used without support for namespaces.
[14:21:15] <jonas’> yes, XMPP uses XML 1.0 + namespaces
[14:21:23] <jonas’> it can
[14:21:30] <jonas’> but everybody luckily forgot about that
[14:21:45] <daniel> jonas’, so is this or is this not legal in xmpp?
[14:21:55] <Link Mauve> Note:

The Namespaces in XML Recommendation [XML Names] assigns a meaning to names containing colon characters. Therefore, authors should not use the colon in XML names except for namespace purposes, but XML processors must accept the colon as a name character.
[14:21:58] <jonas’> it is not legal if there isn’t a namespace declaration on the <message/>
[14:22:07] <jonas’> daniel, it is not legal if there isn’t a namespace declaration on the <message/> for the foo prefix
[14:22:11] <Link Mauve> jonas’, or on the stream:stream, or on foo:bar.
[14:22:19] <jonas’> Link Mauve, not on the stream:stream
[14:22:26] <Link Mauve> Why?
[14:22:29] <jonas’> XMPP
[14:22:42] <jonas’> Namespaces declared in a stream header MUST apply only to that stream
(e.g., the 'jabber:server:dialback' namespace used in Server Dialback
[XEP-0220]). In particular, because XML stanzas intended for routing
or delivery over streams with other entities will lose the namespace
context declared in the header of the stream in which those stanzas
originated, namespaces for extended content within such stanzas MUST
NOT be declared in that stream header (see also Section 8.4).
[14:22:44] <jonas’> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6120#section-4.8.5
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[14:23:27] <jonas’> but yes, it can be on the foo:bar itself, I missed that
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[14:23:52] <Link Mauve> jonas’, ugh, that sucks.
[14:23:57] <jonas’> I was very sad when I learnt that because I intended to declare all the things on the stream header :)
[14:23:57] <Link Mauve> I didn’t know that.
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[14:25:48] <daniel> mhhh ok
[14:26:22] <jonas’> daniel, in any case, your server sent you somewhat malformed XML
[14:26:25] <Link Mauve> jonas’, can you disable namespace support in most XML libraries?
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[14:26:39] <jonas’> Link Mauve, most come with it disabled
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[14:26:43] <daniel> i mean you are all confirming what i assumed was the case. but in any case it makes this https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/3315 weird
[14:26:47] <jonas’> expat and libxml at least
[14:26:48] <jonas’> you have to enable it
[14:26:53] <daniel> and/or very annoying to debug
[14:27:01] <Link Mauve> jonas’, oO
[14:27:05] <Link Mauve> TIL.
[14:27:10] <pep.> > Ge0rG> Guus: standards is obviously not the right place, members is for members only; there is no public ML suitable for that.
I would also like to have such a place tbh. I've been wanting it for some time.
[14:27:11] <jonas’> Link Mauve, in expat you have to set a flag IIRC
[14:27:30] <Link Mauve> I don’t remember having to do that from Python, but maybe.
[14:27:32] <jonas’> daniel, ejabberd bug
[14:27:41] <jonas’> Link Mauve, the high-level python stuff does it for you
[14:27:42] <daniel> jonas’, a known one?
[14:27:45] <jonas’> the xml.sax doesn’t
[14:27:50] <jonas’> daniel, not that I know, but I’m not surprised
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[14:28:05] <daniel> i'd be rather surprised tbh
[14:28:06] <jonas’> daniel, not as far as I know, but I’m not surprised
[14:28:08] <jonas’> I’m not
[14:28:16] <jonas’> the namespace support has been sketchy since ever
[14:28:19] <jonas’> in ejabberd
[14:28:27] <Link Mauve> daniel, “<{null}jabber:x:oob>” sounds like their serialiser did something clearly wrong.
[14:28:46] <Link Mauve> I remember a similar bug being present in Prosody 0.5.1, fixed in 0.5.2.
[14:28:46] <daniel> oh you mean that new compress thing?
[14:29:02] <Link Mauve> (What a blast from the past!)
[14:29:08] <jonas’> Link Mauve, not clearly, I wouldn’t dare to interpret the output of that XML parser logs
[14:29:27] <jonas’> it might be some clark notation gone wro... no wait
[14:29:28] <jonas’> that’s weird
[14:29:31] <jonas’> but s till
[14:29:42] <jonas’> without seeing the raw bytes, I wouldn’t blame the serialiser that much for now
[14:30:11] <Holger> jonas': Namespace handling has been rewritten a while ago, but of course there may still be (new) bugs.
[14:30:12] <daniel> yeah it's not easy to get raw bytes from my parser
[14:30:14] <daniel> sigh
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[14:30:56] <jonas’> *although* the error message indeed sounds like a huge messup
[14:31:01] <Link Mauve> Maybe on the other end, it’s easier to get Ejabberd to dump what it’s going to send?
[14:31:08] <jonas’> it looks as if <jabber:x:oob/> was generated
[14:31:16] <Link Mauve> Yeah.
[14:31:32] <daniel> yeah that's why i was asking for <foo:bar/> initially
[14:31:32] <jonas’> which is wrong, and that ejabberd lets it through to you is also a bug
[14:31:43] <daniel> i don’t think that the {null} is on the wire
[14:32:25] <jonas’> Holger, mhm
[14:32:36] <jonas’> back then™ when I broke ejabberd’s namespace stuff it was still on that other bugtracker
[14:33:08] <Holger> Heh, there's probably no line remaining of the code you broke :-)
[14:33:16] <jonas’> that’s probably good
[14:33:21] <jonas’> I recall the breakage to be terrifying
[14:34:37] <jonas’> ah yes, it swallowed IQs https://support.process-one.net/browse/EJAB-1661
[14:34:43] <jonas’> good ol’ times
[14:34:54] <jonas’> this one was also fun: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/814#issuecomment-153015288
[14:35:46] <Link Mauve> jonas’, that last one is valid though.
[14:35:56] <Link Mauve> It should be parsed to the exact same thing by a namespace-aware parser.
[14:36:00] <jonas’> I am aware
[14:36:08] <jonas’> otherwise I wouldn’t have complained :)
[14:36:09] <pep.> Are you a parser?
[14:36:28] <jonas’> Are you?
[14:36:40] <pep.> I might be, but I'm not fully namespace-aware
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[14:42:03] <Holger> jonas’: Hah, so it was your issue that triggered the initial rewrite I was referring to.
[14:42:15] <jonas’> the IQ one I didn’t open
[14:42:17] <jonas’> I just came across it
[14:42:37] <Holger> I meant the second one.
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[15:46:45] <Ge0rG> the Simple Buttons discussion made me realize that we don't have Data Forms in the suite.
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[15:49:25] <erkanfiles> ralphm: I could provide that current minute on wednesday. Is that in time or is it too late?
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[16:08:39] <ralphm> We meet on Thursdays, so that'd be fine!
[16:08:48] <ralphm> Really happy about someone volunteering
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[17:02:29] *Zash digs up history of buttons.md
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[17:03:57] <jonas’> Guus, I *think* you said the same thing I said in my email to. Where was I unclear?
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[17:04:23] <jonas’> I tried my best to pick words which don’t make Board seem like the booman here, and which don’t put words in Boards collective unison mouth.
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[17:08:54] <Guus> jonas’: I think you left one part of the reasoning out. Anyway, I wanted to stress that I don't believe you were trying to push people.
[17:09:05] <jonas’> ok
[17:09:09] <jonas’> I can live with that :)
[17:09:45] <jonas’> right, I only brought the second part up in a side note ("[…] and to the community for the extra noise and possible temporary confusion and misguidance due to the published compliance suites you had to endure.")
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[17:19:04] <Guus> Ah right. I read that slightly differently. Oh well.
[17:19:37] <jonas’> overcommunicating is never bad
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[17:30:15] <Guus> jonas’: I think I prepared for all changes needed to move over to the new observatory repo
[17:30:27] <jonas’> uh
[17:30:34] <jonas’> I’d like to postpone this until after the holidays to be honest
[17:30:47] <jonas’> we’re going to be on the rails tomorrow and there’s some preparations to be made
[17:30:49] <Zash> HOLIDAY SPRINT
[17:31:12] <Guus>
Care to review the PRs?
[17:31:29] <Guus> Ah ok, fair enough 🙂
[17:31:51] <jonas’> aand it will hvae scrolled out of my inbox by that time, so pinging me about that in a week or so would be wise
[17:32:55] <Guus> 👍
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[22:31:20] <MattJ> Just noticed my emails... so Buttons is accepted?
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[22:31:30] <MattJ> or are there still outstanding votes?
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[22:32:22] <Zash> U want
<button xmlns="urn:xmpp:tmp:buttons">
<onclick>
<json xmlns="urn:xmpp:json:0">{"payload":"100MT-nuke","target":"earth"}</json>
</onclick>
<label xml:lang="en">Big Red Button</label>
<label xml:lang="sv">Stor Röd Knapp</label>
</button>
[22:32:23] <Zash> ?
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[22:33:25] <MattJ> No?
[22:33:44] <MattJ> Are you being sarcastic or why is this so hard? :)
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[22:34:34] <MattJ> The whole point is that the buttons are shortcuts for pieces of text
[22:34:58] <MattJ> Which also makes the points about i18n rather dubious (as I wrote to standards@)
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[22:39:04] <lovetox> yeah i agree the i18n argument is a bit overboard, i never saw bodys with different langs
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[22:39:28] <lovetox> lets be honest, almost no one makes use of that lang feature
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[22:41:25] <MattJ> Right. Last I checked was quite some time ago, and it was not handled very well in clients
[22:41:51] <MattJ> which allows many fun things :)
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[22:42:51] <lovetox> i get its nice to have it defined with the base xmpp spec, so if there is a usecase someone does not have to invent his own stuff, but not every XEP will be able to fully be i18n compatible, and seeing that one of the most important xeps like dataforms is not useable with i18n, lets me think, can this even be done?
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[22:47:26] <Zash> Is there a XEP on how to handle i18n?
[22:47:43] <Link Mauve> lovetox, in most cases dataforms are actually usable with i18n, because you transmit the xml:lang in every stanza you send the responder is able to setup the translation domain correctly.
[22:48:09] <Link Mauve> For buttons it can’t be done that way, because the main point of using it is through a MUC.
[22:48:16] <Link Mauve> So there is no sender/responder.
[22:48:23] <Zash> The main point?
[22:48:57] <Zash> You still get presence from everyone, so you can do ... something
[22:49:01] <Link Mauve> Zash, didn’t you define it so it would work in a MUC?
[22:49:36] <Link Mauve> Zash, well, not really, say half of the people here advertise an @xml:lang of en, then some fr, some de, some ru, some sv, etc.
[22:49:40] <lovetox> also a MUC has in most cases one language
[22:49:45] <lovetox> there is no need for translation
[22:49:46] <Zash> Link Mauve: I tried to make it like it works elsewhere in XMPP wrt i18n, which allows multiple <body xml:lang=*> and such.
[22:49:59] <Link Mauve> lovetox, yet in many cases it allows more than one.
[22:50:04] <Link Mauve> Zash, yeah, that’s fine.
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[22:50:45] <lovetox> also from where should the sender have the translation?
[22:50:53] <lovetox> yeah for Yes and No, its likely he has it
[22:51:09] <Zash> Is that in scope for a protocol?
[22:51:12] <lovetox> but the moment you let the user choose the labels himself, there is no chance he has a translation ready
[22:51:31] <Zash> I imagined this would be from bots mostly
[22:51:42] <Zash> Eg Memberbot
[22:51:54] <lovetox> point is, you can make it super i18n compatible, in reality for the MUC vote case, and thats probably what this is beeing used for, there will be no translations
[22:52:31] <Zash> Allowing for translations doesn't prevent use when there are none
[22:52:36] <lovetox> yeah and Memberbot wants to ask a new question, and then you make a git repo and ask people to translate your memberbot questions into 10 languages or what?
[22:52:50] <Link Mauve> lovetox, yeah, that’s how it’s done in most software.
[22:53:24] <Link Mauve> You have a list of supported languages, translators do the translation work, you often pull them back in your software, and then users can use it in any language they want.
[22:53:25] <lovetox> thats the point, its not part of the software
[22:53:37] <lovetox> the bot allows to ask all possible questions at any point in time
[22:53:45] <lovetox> it would be better to use google translate api
[22:53:50] <Link Mauve> Haha.
[22:54:09] <Link Mauve> That’s just one of your usecases, you don’t need to limit the protocol for other usecases.
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[22:54:52] <lovetox> i dont want to limit it, but it should also not stand in the way
[22:55:19] <Link Mauve> Is it currently standing in the way, in the current proposal?
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[22:56:52] <lovetox> i hope not, i didnt follow the discussion until the end :)
[22:57:48] <lovetox> for me this is fine, translate the buttons if you want
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[22:57:56] <lovetox> but translating the value seems wrong
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