XSF Discussion - 2019-02-04


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  4. pep. I would assume conversations had to go through the same hassle? Also Signal
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  16. moparisthebest Wow I was joking about overthrowing the French govt earlier but maybe it's time
  17. moparisthebest Is there a way to check whether the eventually released French binaries are the same as in other countries?
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  25. pep. I'm now wondering how it works with Linux distributions even.
  26. moparisthebest Looks like only apple requires it
  27. moparisthebest Like maybe everyone else should ask the French Kings permission too but just doesn't
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  145. lovetox They can only enforce it if you go over some software store
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  147. lovetox Thats the downside if most people only get software through a software store like apple or google store
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  149. pep. What about distribution repositories
  150. pep. (Not that I want any of this bs there, just curious)
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  234. lovetox pep. repositorys are like http servers, i think its too much work for a government or an agency to monitor all possible repositorys
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  236. lovetox its easy to make one big company follow some rules
  237. lovetox because the company wants to make money in this country
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  331. debacle Marketing issue: Because we all love the wonderful orange hoodies sold at the summit, we talked about having an "inofficial XMPP brand colour", which more or less matches the hoodies. The XMPP logo has two tones of orange: https://www.color-hex.com/color/e96d1f and https://www.color-hex.com/color/d9541e
  332. debacle The former looks more "aggressive" to me than the latter. I'ld prefer that, but as most software developers, I'm not good when it comes to design and marketing stuff.
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  340. goffi debacle: I guess this is something for the board, maybe it should be added to agenda?
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  342. debacle goffi, after that you need to change the colour of your SàT starfish :)
  343. Ge0rG I'd like to have a Jabber hoodie.
  344. jonas’ talk to cisco about that
  345. Guus Ge0rG I think ralphm took them home, so you might be able to have him ship one to you.
  346. pep. Guus, I think that was just a taunt :)
  347. debacle Jabber is only trademarked for computing and communication, right? You can have a Jabber washing powder or Jabber fashion products.
  348. ralphm I have all the hoodies here, as well as the XSF flag that Guus has had made.
  349. Ge0rG No, I'm actually interested in having a Jabber hoodie.
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  351. moparisthebest print one?
  352. Guus (There's another flag with Daniel, btw)
  353. Ge0rG 🤔 can do. Will I violate trademarks?
  354. ralphm XMPP is not a trademark, as it was "invented" especially for the purpose of not being one, so that it could be used as the name of a set of protocols with the IETF.
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  356. ralphm And Jabber logo is officially owned by the XSF.
  357. moparisthebest who cares Ge0rG , XSF is :P
  358. moparisthebest there is still 0 paperwork showing XSF has the right to do anything with jabber
  359. ralphm (I.e. the bulb used for the JSF logo, not to be confused with the bulb Jabber, Inc. used)
  360. moparisthebest there is paperwork saying they had rights up until June of 2001 or something, but nothing saying it was extended
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  363. ralphm moparisthebest: ok great, and now?
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  365. moparisthebest find the paperwork or forget about it, in my opinion
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  367. moparisthebest long live XMPP, jabber can go die in a fire
  368. ralphm That's one viewpoint, sure.
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  370. moparisthebest how can a company rely on a grant of use of jabber from the XSF when nothing says the XSF has that right?
  371. pep. I'd like to cut ties with Cisco at some point as well
  372. moparisthebest also, assuming the old expired agreements were extended and still in effect, a company STILL can't rely on it because the XSF has like 30 days to take legal action against trademark abuses, and the XSF doesn't have resources for that?
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  374. moparisthebest but we don't even get that far, because there is no such paperwork, is there?
  375. moparisthebest wasn't last time I asked...
  376. Ge0rG moparisthebest: AFAIU, stpeter has the paperwork
  377. moparisthebest that doesn't sound like a legal defense for a company sued by cisco for using jabber
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  387. jonas’ Ge0rG, do you want to get https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/739 merged now or do you want to modify it?
  388. jonas’ moparisthebest, AFAIK, stpeter has always taken some type of action when trademark violations have been reported.
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  390. jonas’ (having reported one or another myself)
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  393. Ge0rG jonas’: I've written another mail to standards@ regarding the still open points wrt. error conditions. Would be nice to get some feedback for that first.
  394. jonas’ when?
  395. jonas’ because I just replied to the one from tuesday
  396. Ge0rG oh, I didn't read my private mail yet.
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  399. jonas’ what I forgot to write regarding your second point (clearly defining the error condition for "not in room"): we can have '410 advance and adapt it according to changes in '45 later, IMO
  400. Ge0rG jonas’: Warning: The key used to create the signature expired at: Tue 12 Jul 2016 09:13:45 PM CEST
  401. jonas’ Ge0rG, gpg2 --refresh-keys
  402. Ge0rG why doesn't it do that automagically?
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  404. jonas’ because privacy
  405. Ge0rG jonas’: if I understand your remark here right, there is no need to add those things into 0410 now?
  406. jonas’ I think the former <not-in-room/> should be added to '410 right now
  407. jonas’ (and then backported to '45)
  408. jonas’ the latter (general not-in-room condition, i.e. not-acceptable vs. whatever) should be in '45, and does not need to be added to '410 right now
  409. jonas’ (former and latter refering to the order of the points made in your original email)
  410. Ge0rG But my former proposal uses the MUC namespace, for which I'm not an authority
  411. jonas’ that’s kinda true
  412. jonas’ I’d try it and see if it passes by council? :>
  413. jonas’ I mean you’re also using identifiers from the muc prefix for disco#info, aren’t you?
  414. Ge0rG That's a very subversive approach
  415. jonas’ (while obviously pointing council at it to not make it appear like you tried to smuglge something, obviously)
  416. Ge0rG Yeah, right! 😂
  417. Ge0rG jonas’: my laptop is still busy thrashing, so I can't do any meaningful work right now.
  418. jonas’ sure
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  420. Ge0rG Can we merge the existing changes first, and then have a separate pr for the new condition? That surely would make a better proposition for two council votes.
  421. jonas’ I am fine with that
  422. jonas’ (fwiw, I’m asking because I’m on a merge spree)
  423. Ge0rG jonas’: engage the merge button!
  424. jonas’ so I’ll just merge it now!
  425. jonas’ it will take approx. 3h to appear on the website because there doesn’t seem a way to cancel builds in the new docker hub interface
  426. Ge0rG It also looks like my OOM condition is nearing its end, after I somehow managed to store a 6.5GB session file into 2GB of free disk space, and can see the "quit" button of this application already
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  506. lovetox hm jonas’ the xor xep is not on the server
  507. jonas’ ah, the email template is still lacking the "due to unrelated automated processes yada yada will appear soon"
  508. jonas’ (i.e.: I forgot to push that one before sending out the email)
  509. jonas’ look again in an hour
  510. jonas’ docker build takes ages
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  512. lovetox k thanks
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  516. jonas’ Ge0rG, gentle reminder about your on-list-ing of https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/743
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  521. Ge0rG jonas’: I still think that the warning text isn't sufficiently bold and red and blinking
  522. jonas’ Ge0rG, maybe state that on-list then, with an official -1, so we can get the vote over with.
  523. Ge0rG jonas’: but thanks for the reminder. I'll send a mail to the list tomorrow
  524. jonas’ :)
  525. jonas’ thank you very much
  526. jonas’ huh
  527. jonas’
  528. pep. jonas’, the new inbox stuff is not yet ready?
  529. jonas’ what new inbox stuff?
  530. pep. I get 404 for XOR
  531. jonas’ yeah
  532. pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/xor.html
  533. jonas’ see above
  534. pep. oh
  535. jonas’ should be there in 15min or so
  536. pep. thanks
  537. jonas’ one day I’ll silently replace the nginx stuff with a reverse-proxy to a host of mine where I can do incremental builds :-X
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  539. flow Or we ditch docker, and design the tool so that it takes the xeps repo as input and a directory for the html as output, and simply let a web server serve that directory to the world
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  541. jonas’ flow, iteam does not want to execute uncontainerised code on the server.
  542. jonas’ flow, there is already the makefile which does essentially that
  543. flow jonas’, I know, but I don't really think that this is a good decission
  544. flow For the wiki, maybe
  545. flow But not for the editor tooling
  546. jonas’ I can see why they made that decision, and I’m not the one to overturn that.
  547. jonas’ I will complain once in a while about the 1h build times, because those are annoying big time
  548. Ge0rG Can't we have a docker image that contains all the tools? Or do we already, and it's the XEP build that takes so long?
  549. flow jonas’, you are the one with the most "leidensdruck" regarding that, I decided to that I don't want to get invovled with a process which I believe to be fundamentally wrong
  550. Zash Should be doable to not do it from scratch every time?
  551. jonas’ everything which invovles not doing everything from scratch all the time requires to move away from docker hup
  552. jonas’ everything which invovles not doing everything from scratch all the time requires to move the build of the xeps away from docker hub
  553. jonas’ and that requires a machine which can do the builds
  554. jonas’ -ENOENT
  555. flow Ge0rG, why does it have to be docker? as far as I can tell, most tools is simply python. I am not sure about external dependencies, but I've been told there are other solutions for that besides docker
  556. jonas’ flow, there is one crucial tool
  557. jonas’ the toolchain which builds the PDFs
  558. jonas’ this is terrible to set up
  559. jonas’ it involves some chain of XSL, some tooling called texml I think, and latex to generate the PDFs
  560. jonas’ parts of wihch are unpackaged, I think
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  562. flow jonas’, true, and PDFs are nice, but that could be done in docker. How many times have people asked you why a PDF is 404, vs the HTML?
  563. jonas’ I can totally see why you wouldn’t run that automatedly on any server, even if only because of the CPU load caused by a mass rebuild
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  566. pep. flow, as a sysadmin I really understand the need for some form of container. This way iteam doesn't have to know what's going on to deploy the app, editors can do whatever they want in it
  567. jonas’ even if one split the build into HTML (on the server itself) and PDF (on dockerhub or whatever), there needs to be a way to trigger a build from github on the server, which is another thing iteam doesn’t want
  568. flow pep., I think "just depend on stuff that is in debian stable" could be a feasible policy in this case
  569. jonas’ (also completely understandable)
  570. flow no need to dockerize
  571. jonas’ (I’m still scared of the webhook-website-build-thing I made for another org)
  572. pep. flow, some kind of isolation might also be desirable. If they ever want to run something unrelated to editorial things
  573. jonas’ flow, to do this totally safely, one would have to split the build tools out in a separate repository; makefile is executable code, you don’t want to have that updated automatedly on the server
  574. flow jonas’, splitting tooling and xeps was actually what I also suggested back then
  575. jonas’ makes it more annoying to use by the editor, too
  576. flow pep., true, but there are also solutions for that that
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  579. jonas’ I can also see why iteam wouldn’t want to maintain the code execution on the server, given that they’re all very busy folks.
  580. jonas’ I wonder whether there’s something with nginx where you can ask multiple sources for a URL. like, "try local file first, if that’s not found, try this reverse-proxied service, if that’s not found, return not found"
  581. pep. try_files ?
  582. pep. https://nginx.org/en/docs/http/ngx_http_core_module.html#try_files
  583. jonas’ doesn’t seem to me that could use a reverse-proxied service as fallback
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  585. pep. location / { try_files /system/maintenance.html $uri $uri/index.html $uri.html @mongrel; } location @mongrel { proxy_pass http://mongrel; }
  586. jonas’ ah
  587. jonas’ that makes sense then
  588. jonas’ that could allow editors to host builds which are taken until the docker build has passed
  589. jonas’ that could allow editors to host builds which are served until the docker build has passed
  590. flow I mean ideally editors would run the tooling locally and just sync with a remote directory that is served over http(s)
  591. jonas’ for certain definitions of "sync"
  592. mathieui I see the appeal into relying on the repository build and not on people syncing files on the server
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  598. flow mathieui, does it really make a big difference between triggering the docker build vs running the tool localy? Besides the later being finished way earlier than the docker build?
  599. jonas’ flow, yes, the docker build always yields a consistent result
  600. jonas’ when multiple people do editor work and everyone syncs parts of their builds up to a server ... that’s meh
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  602. jonas’ mix into that local, uncommitted changes and it’s getting messy quick
  603. Zash Horrible hack: Download existing files (only really need the timestamps) so the thing believes it already built the things it already built
  604. flow jonas’, one sure could design the tool so that this shouldn't become a real world issue, i'd say
  605. jonas’ Zash, oh my god
  606. mathieui Zash, I like it
  607. flow hackidy hack hack
  608. jonas’ flow, not really, unless you let the tool run `git checkout . ; git clean -f`, which no automated tool should run ever.
  609. flow jonas’, depends, if this is a repo in a shadow directory…
  610. jonas’ ugh
  611. flow but yeah, people have different opinions and experiences about "how to do it right"
  612. jonas’ too dangerous to write those lines in any tool, ever
  613. flow back to bug hunting
  614. Zash This feels like https://xkcd.com/2044/
  615. pep. Sometimes I wonder how much time you spend on xkcd Zash
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  618. jonas’ he just has a good memory because he doesn’t keep logs and thus has to rely on his brain, in contrast to all of us :(
  619. Zash Logs wasn't a thing when I grew up
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  621. pep. I just don't want to clutter my memory with logs, and logs are mostly free :p
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  623. Zash I also never learned to take notes in school.
  624. jonas’ O_O
  625. pep. I'm also really bad at that
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  631. Neustradamus It is possible to do an update of https://xmpp.org/2019/01/the-xmpp-newsletter-31-january-2018/ ?
  632. jonas’ update?
  633. jonas’ what’s missing?
  634. pep. If it's about the url, that was discussed on the commteam channel iirc
  635. Neustradamus 2018
  636. jonas’ the URL cannot be changed anymore
  637. jonas’ it is linked to from various sources
  638. jonas’ Neustradamus, see also https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/commit/2c9f80b5bd3301f2bab5a18300146dce7b075c9d https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/commit/7862fd7c71a531e8875a0731779554b3e896aedd https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/commit/7fd06dc8f805776540add7ed0819861ef3d5b783
  639. pep. jonas’, in hugo there's an "aliases" directives
  640. jonas’ I had lots of fun
  641. jonas’ pep., hm, aliases
  642. jonas’ I was thinking ln -s in the docker build :-X
  643. Neustradamus But redirection/alias...
  644. pep. That creates a stub with <meta/>
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  646. jonas’ pelican does not seem to have any alias functionality
  647. Neustradamus Posted by "Seve, jcbrand" -> https://xmpp.org/author/seve-jcbrand.html strange page too
  648. jonas’ or redirects
  649. pep. Maybe we can just create the page manually
  650. jonas’ pep., sounds like a plan, go ahead
  651. pep. <meta http-equiv="refresh" content="0; https://foo.bar/2019-1234" />
  652. pep. Okay
  653. Zash Hacks
  654. Zash So many hacks
  655. pep. of course.
  656. pep. Compat compat compat
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  658. pep. jonas’, hmm, how do I create a static page? Do I create a .md with html in it directly? :/
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  660. jonas’ look at how the homepage is created, essentially
  661. jonas’ it’ll be messed with by templates though
  662. jonas’ so you probably have to create your own template for that page
  663. jonas’ I think it might be easier to simply hack the symlink creation somewhere into the build process.
  664. pep. :/
  665. pep. It's not a symlink that we want, do we. It's a redirect
  666. pep. So either <meta/>, either nginx
  667. jonas’ yes, a proper redirect needs to be done by a webserver
  668. pep. I feel meta is better though
  669. jonas’ meta is never better
  670. pep. Well.. that's an application issue
  671. Zash Also having they date in the slug seems redundant since it's in the path too
  672. pep. hah, true
  673. Zash (this is where someone says it's required because of reasons)
  674. jonas’ it isn’t, I think
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  678. pep. https://github.com/Nitron/pelican-alias hmm.
  679. pep. How do you feel about having one moar plugin
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  684. Neustradamus On https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/xor.html No new draft information: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mile-xmpp-grid And 2 mistakes about -> "Jabber" network It is the XMPP network
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  724. Zash Re XEP-0335, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7493 might be worth looking at (ping MattJ)
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