XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2019-02-06


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  363. ralphm I'm having this discussion on E2E encryption with michael on Twitter, but what he describes about key exchange sounds like a bug. https://twitter.com/mickael/status/1093128804728557570
  364. ralphm mickael
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  366. ralphm This isn't inherent to the protocol, is it?
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  368. jonas’ does it use multi-item PEP?
  369. dwd No, the key exchange stuff is pretty rubbish.
  370. Zash PEP and MAM on login adds a bit, not sure how significant it is
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  373. dwd This isn't helped by the key service really needing more smarts than just a big PEP blob anyway.
  374. Zash Multi-item was less commonly supported by servers before, so would have been a pain to deploy if it was required
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  376. ralphm dwd: but is it as bad as mickael describes?
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  379. pep. ralphm, bundles are only needed on session init
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  381. pep. So they get fetched at that time
  382. pep. But session init doesn't happen often
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  385. dwd ralphm, Well, I don't know about how loaded blatting out a big blob actually makes a server.
  386. ralphm pep.: Yeah, that was my thought, too.
  387. jonas’ I think the increased message size in MAM is probably more worrisome
  388. pep. Well that's an issue with e2ee at all right?
  389. jonas’ that affects bandwidths (memory, disk and network) and disk storage
  390. jonas’ pep., yes, that’s kind of the point
  391. ralphm jonas’: well, I am not surprised about encrypted stuff being bigger in general
  392. pep. k
  393. Kev Depends if it's hitting disk for PEP each time or something, I imagine.
  394. Zash The real problem is that everything is hitting the disk for way more stanzas now than in the past
  395. dwd Kev, And if not, the memory pressure is probably greatly increased.
  396. Kev dwd: Quite.
  397. ralphm But this isn't a property of which protocol we use for e2e, is it?
  398. Kev Message size? No. Key exchange details? Yes.
  399. ralphm The increase in MAM storage, I mean.
  400. Kev (Or ln -s No Not\ Entirely)
  401. ralphm Right, if the key exchange is suboptimal, then that's a thing we can look into. I'm surprised that mickael says the impact would be 'huge'.
  402. dwd ralphm, Yes, it can be. MLS, for instance, would be hugely more efficient in bandwidth terms where OMEMO is used within MUCs, for example.
  403. dwd ralphm, But I would personally just treat OMEMO as the experiment it is, and await MLS patiently, and do things properly then.
  404. ralphm I don't think we are talking about group chats at this point, though.
  405. pep. If you don't have to reencrypt for each device, certainly yes :)
  406. goffi dwd: I forgot to ask you about that by the way, is there any progress and where can we follow them?
  407. pep. ralphm, for 1:1 you still encrypt for each of your recipient's devices
  408. goffi (mls)
  409. pep. With OMEMO
  410. dwd goffi, MLS has an IETF working group, and is taking time - lots of effort in the low-level crypto.
  411. ralphm pep.: sure, but what's this about 100s of PreKeys?
  412. dwd ralphm, That's a property of most of these algorithms, including MLS. Each device must upload a bunch of prekeys, and a new session takes one.
  413. pep. I'm not exactly sure about prekeys, maybe Syndace can chime in, and why we need 100. I guess that's when people want to start a session with you, and how often you need to renew them
  414. pep. (renew them > the prekeys)
  415. Zash What happens if two sessions are started using the same prekey?
  416. dwd ralphm, My sketch of a XEP for MLS, for instance, says that servers provide a keying service and hand out a single prekey for each device on demand.
  417. Kev Although even 'having 100 prekeys' doesn't necessitate our current mechanism.
  418. Kev Right, that'd do it.
  419. dwd Zash, Nothing - in principle. But it makes the cryptanalysis much harder.
  420. pep. Zash, that happens regularly, because we don't have reliable message delivery. So some clients will use the same prekey until they get an ACK from the other side
  421. ralphm (for reference, the WG is here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/mls/)
  422. dwd ralphm, Thanks.
  423. dwd ralphm, Note that for each session, the requester will grab all the prekeys, pick a set (one from each device), and then use them. On successful session start, the called device then removes the set from the prekey blob and re-uploads. This new bundle is then pulled by each device.
  424. Daniel > ralphm, My sketch of a XEP for MLS, for instance, says that servers provide a keying service and hand out a single prekey for each device on demand. This is probably the 'proper' solution. For omemo we deliberately decided against an omemo component in favor of faster adoption. But learning about the limitations of PEP and how fast we can role out components if we need to (http upload) this is one of the regrettable features of omemo.
  425. Daniel Or not that much regrettable but rather 'lessons learned'
  426. dwd Daniel, For sure - and I would note that this is a fine design if treated as an experiment.
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  428. ralphm dwd: sure, but how often does one have a new session? That's still not a common thing, is it?
  429. dwd ralphm, Every new conversation.
  430. pep. dwd, really?
  431. pep. Is it some security thing I don't understand, or is it a limitation, or?
  432. Zash pep.: What thing?
  433. pep. what what
  434. dwd pep., I would think so. The ratcheting means you can re-use a session for lengthy periods, but you'd need to store a fair chunk of cryptographically-sensitive state, so I'd think you'd discard that after a period of inactivity in a conversation and start anew later.
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  436. ralphm Daniel: when do sessions expire in Conversations?
  437. dwd pep., That said, I've not looked at what OMEMO implementations actually do. The spec more or less says "use libsignal", so it's hard to tell.
  438. pep. I would assume in OMEMO session initiation is not something that happens often, judging by how easy it is to lose messages when negociating a new one. If the other side starts a new session and drops the old one, and I don't, I'll send a message and they won't be able to read it.
  439. Zash pep.: Cryptosystems usually need something like a 3-way handshake. As I understand it, prekeys are the first step in that. (Is that the "what"?)
  440. Daniel ralphm: they don't
  441. ralphm Daniel: so in Conversations, a session between two users doesn't change keys, until you add/remove devices, or explicitly want to use a new key?
  442. Daniel A session is something that exists between devices. So adding a new device will create an additional session and not change something about the existing ones
  443. Daniel But the ratchet for each session is of course moved forward on every received message
  444. ralphm right, I'm trying to understand what the actual traffic behaviour is, with respect to our current key exchange, and whether this is worse in some implementations than others
  445. Syndace Ugh not reading for a day and 500 messages with a lot about OMEMO >.<
  446. Daniel ralphm: regarding the Twitter?
  447. ralphm yeah
  448. Zash Syndace: Enjoy your FOMO :)
  449. pep. Syndace, stop slacking off!
  450. Daniel This is I assume about the prekeys
  451. ralphm I Slack off all the time, I call it market research, or work, depending who's asking.
  452. Seve Haha
  453. pep. :D
  454. Daniel So on login due to broken pep a client doesn't know if the prekey list on the server is up to date and will update it
  455. Daniel Which as I just mentioned on Twitter is something one could probably fix now that pep isn't broken
  456. ralphm so without session resumption (XMPP session, not OMEMO), this might be often
  457. Daniel That often
  458. Daniel ralphm: yes
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  486. Ge0rG I wonder why people insist on PFS, deniability and per-device keys. If you just have a per-account key that is shared between your devices, you can have such a simple e2ee scheme.
  487. Zash Ge0rG: Because PFS has more marketing behind it and looks better for ültraparanoid cryptonerds :)
  488. moparisthebest then why wasn't xep-27 widely adopted/used ?
  489. Zash OpenPGP is Hard and '27 is awkward
  490. moparisthebest it's just a different use-case, PFS has valuable properties, it also has downsides
  491. Zash It's got the word "Perfect" in it!!!1
  492. Ge0rG *cough* https://op-co.de/tmp/SEX.html *cough*
  493. Zash moparisthebest: Also beacuse crypto wasn't hip and cool and buzzword-compatible enough back then
  494. moparisthebest plus it doesn't have signing or replay prevention
  495. Zash Snowden and Facebook scandals does a lot of marketing for magic crypto dust and these last years seem to have been a good time to push this stuff
  496. Zash moparisthebest: As I said, '27 is awkward.
  497. dwd moparisthebest, eSessions ticked most boxes, but wasn't ever deployed either.
  498. Zash Gajim had it (removed now?)
  499. dwd moparisthebest, But also, there's RFC 3923, of course.
  500. dwd Zash, Yes, indeed. MattJ and I used to fiddle constantly to stop it encrypting as I recall.
  501. dwd notes that even RFC 3923 had full-stanza encryption.
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  512. Ge0rG It looks like xmpp.org is flapping ipv6 again.
  513. Ge0rG IPv4 is also affected.
  514. Ge0rG Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails.
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  518. jonas’ my monitoring agrees
  519. Ge0rG But now also my IRCnet fails, so maybe it's a larger issue somewhere in Yurop
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  521. edhelas the Brexit has strarted
  522. jonas’ bad network weather
  523. Zash Dun dun duuuun
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  529. dwd Council meeting about to start over there: --> council@muc.xmpp.org
  530. jonas’ /correct Council meeting about to start over there: --> xmpp:council@muc.xmpp.org?join
  531. Zash /sudo -u dwd /correct ...
  532. jonas’ I can haz sudo XEP?
  533. Zash SASL sorta has it already actually
  534. jonas’ yeah, without reconnecting pls
  535. Zash authz vs authn something something
  536. Zash But yeah, overwriting other peoples messages ... might have its uses
  537. Zash Tho attaching or somesuch might be fine for most of them
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  682. flow So fun question, is the 'by' attribute of stanza errors (RFC 6120 § 8.3.2) guaranteed to be an JID, or can it be an arbitrary string?
  683. flow I am missing the "the JID of" before "the entity" in the paragraph specifying it, just like it is done everywhere else
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  689. Zash flow: Is there any text that suggests that "entity" is equivalent to JID?
  690. flow Zash, yes and no, guess it depends on the type of the entity
  691. Ge0rG flow: you don't want to enforce this in the type system, do you?
  692. Zash I thought it was a JID
  693. Ge0rG I'm really excited to get my client crashed by type system exceptions caused by remote entities!
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  695. Zash Maybe(JID | String)
  696. Zash Have fun
  697. Ge0rG Someone is going to mess up my bookmarks with a robot face MUC and I'll end up in an endless connect loop.
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  741. rion It seems there is an error in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0261.html examples 9, 10. New SID has to be different for second stream but it has to be the same for for <transport> and <open>
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  746. MattJ rion, can you post that to the standards@ list?
  747. rion I'll send a pull request with fix
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  755. lovetox rion, do you mean example 10 has the wrong sid
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  758. rion lovetox: yes
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  760. lovetox should be bt8a71h6 instead
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  762. lovetox yeah seems like a copy/paste error
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  764. rion https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/755
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  779. Link Mauve Daniel, could you add IPv6 support to conference.siacs.eu please?
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  781. Link Mauve I don’t currently have an IPv4 on my server, and it prevents me from joining.
  782. Daniel Link Mauve: it's on the todo list
  783. Link Mauve Great, thanks. :)
  784. Link Mauve Kev, could you do the same with rooms.swift.im please?
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  793. rion another error https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0167.html example 50. wrong action.
  794. pep. rion, please PR :)
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  796. rion https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/756
  797. pep. thanks o/
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  802. rion xep-0167 example 48 probably should include some candidates to <transport> or at least refer to consequent transport-info actions for transport negotiation.
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