XSF Discussion - 2019-02-09


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  86. MattJ Good morning
  87. MattJ I'm going to upgrade xmpp:xmpp.org, which means this room will be (hopefully briefly) unavailable, and you will need to rejoin
  88. MattJ Hopefully for the last time, because the next version preserves room occupants between restarts :)
  89. MattJ Wait. Or am I?
  90. MattJ Looks like an OS upgrade will be needed first
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  99. lovetox Do we get MAM here then?
  100. lovetox or at least a history that doesnt save chatstates
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  107. MattJ MAM is the goal, yes
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  109. lovetox great 😎
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  115. jonas’ lovetox, are you confusing this room with jdev@?
  116. lovetox maybe, does this one not save chatstates :D
  117. jonas’ I don’t think it does
  118. jonas’ but I haven’t been using a non-always-on client in MUCs for a while now, so I don’t know
  119. jonas’ okay, I’ve officially been doing too much XMPP. when I type x in my browser bar, the first suggestion is not xkcd.com anymore, but xmpp.org.
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  121. zinid jonas’, I keep you even more busy :) check the inbox :)
  122. jonas’ holy smokes, I knew you were one of those russian spammers!!!! (jk)
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  124. zinid jonas’, haha, two more to come! (but not now)
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  126. zinid jonas’, this time when you find the problems with the document tell me and I will fix them prior to the Council discussion, in order not to waste their time
  127. jonas’ zinid, okay
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  129. Ge0rG I have a vague feeling that the council members are on council because they like wasting their time with taking apart protocols...
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  132. zinid really?
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  134. zinid I thought they mostly take apart XSF rules :)
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  139. Ge0rG zinid: those are a special kind of protocol.
  140. zinid Ge0rG, yeah, I learnt recently SEX is also a protocol
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  142. zinid how is it going btw? where is the protoxep?
  143. zinid "how is your SEX life by the way"
  144. Ge0rG zinid: I haven't decided yet whether to make it a proto XEP. Need to read through OX and MLS first
  145. Ge0rG Also, surprisingly, some people dislike the name
  146. zinid ha, I told you. The wrong community. Rename to FAP.
  147. zinid btw, I tried to read the MLS I-D, but fell asleep after a few minutes. Really not my stuff.
  148. Maranda zinid, very satisfying thanks 🤣 🤣 🤣
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  156. zinid Maranda, hello ;)
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  158. Maranda Good mornin' 😸
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  250. dwd Wasn't SEX the thing that was "post operational transform" and could transfer an empty XML doc in only 9,000 stanzas and half a gig?
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  291. Zash dwd: SXE?
  292. dwd Oh, yes. That's the one.
  293. Zash What sort of amazing compression were you using to get that into half a gig?
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  325. dwd Zash, Good point - these days, compression isn't allowed Because Security.
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  416. pep. Looking at Outreachy. "FOSS communities need to have secured funding for at least one intern ($6,500)", that's.. not going to be possible?
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  418. Zash Somewhat out of reach for ~3 people working in their free time without any formal organization, yeah.
  419. pep. Ok so outreachy for diversity in this community is a no-go, unless companies can chime in maybe.
  420. Zash Something something discrimination against poor FOSS projects!!!!11!1eleven
  421. pep. Yeah, so like 90% of FOSS
  422. rion I'm trying to understand one thing about Jingle. For example I have got a session-initiate request. iq-from and "initiator" are different for some reason. so I send back iq ack to iq-from and then session-accept to initiator jid. What if for example I receive content-add from initiator jid as iq-from now instead of original iq-from? How should I treat it?
  423. Zash pep.: Tho, we could still talk to them
  424. pep. Do you know who to ping and how to approach them?
  425. Zash Not really
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  428. Zash pep.: "Hi, we're a bunch of FOSS projects around the open IM protocol XMPP" and invite the organizers to some event to talk about encouraging diversity in FOSS projects. Like a sprint or somesuch.
  429. Zash Something along those lines
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  431. pep. How to reuse Matrix marketing 101: https://ppjet.bouah.net/im-protocols-interop.png (I took a few liberties)
  432. Zash oh lawd
  433. Zash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmpp#Connecting_to_other_protocols
  434. pep. Matthew, (please stop me if you're not the right matthew), I'm looking at the Matrix and the french state talk, and you list a set of features for the protocol, notably e2ee _and_ server-side search. How does that work?
  435. pep. What do you look at if your server doesn't have plain data
  436. Matthew the idea is that you run your own server somewhere trusted to index the data
  437. Matthew https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-search
  438. Andrew Nenakhov Those ee2e freaks never cease to amaze me. First they trust no one and demand end to end encryption. Them they understand that total privacy is kinda inconvenient, so they are willing to totally compromise their e2ee to have nice fearures back
  439. Matthew (the idea is also to run the server clientside; eg in the desktop apps, to have better control over the plaintext)
  440. Matthew we’re not trying to do homomorphic encryption or anything fancy
  441. pep. Right, so it's more of a client-side feature ish
  442. pep. Does the data come from the client, or is the indexer actually plugged on the network
  443. Andrew Nenakhov Why not run just your own server and not bother with e2ee?
  444. Matthew Andrew Nenakhov: because it sucks if someone pwns your server
  445. Matthew and servers tend to be slightly easier to pwn than endpoints
  446. pep. I don't actually agree with the last comment, but I do with the previous one.
  447. Zash Got stats on that?
  448. pep. And as a server admin I'd like to not be able to see my users' data
  449. Matthew pep.: in the linked project, the data comes from the network
  450. Matthew we are having second thoughts on whether that’s the right design
  451. Andrew Nenakhov You mean than android phones that can pe pwned with a png oic?
  452. Matthew zash: just common sense that it’s easier to pwn some random crappy homerun vps than an iphone
  453. pep. Matthew, you mean an iphone not pin-locked? :P
  454. Matthew also, it’s easier to find servers and they’re tend to be turned on all the time
  455. Matthew and they gather more data and metadata than a client
  456. Matthew *shrug*
  457. Andrew Nenakhov > And as a server admin I'd like to not be able to see my users' data I mean, the only security threat that e2ee helps is server operators. If you are your own operator you dont need to protect against yourself
  458. Zash So nothing to back that up?
  459. pep. Andrew Nenakhov, not sure if I read your message correctly, but yeah, as a server admin I'd like not to be able to sell (give) my users' data to any government or whatever
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  462. Andrew Nenakhov > And as a server admin I'd like to not be able to see my users' data That's easy. Never look at it.
  463. pep. read my last message
  464. Andrew Nenakhov Oh right. Do not host servers with data from strangers.
  465. pep. What have strangers to do with that
  466. Zash Don't host servers to begin with. Or use computers! Moving into the woods and growing potatoes is the final solution to all tech problems!
  467. Andrew Nenakhov If you have a known people who's data might be asked for retrieval by government, you'd better not have them on your server in the first place
  468. mathieui why?
  469. Andrew Nenakhov This obsession with encryption is unhealthy. :-/
  470. Andrew Nenakhov If users want e2ee, fine
  471. mathieui people who are in trouble with their governments do not have the right to use IM?
  472. Andrew Nenakhov Just dont ask for server to nicely find your chats from last year by fulltext
  473. pep. Matthew, do you have resources describing what e2ee in matrix protects from (what goals)? or can you summarize it quickly?
  474. Andrew Nenakhov As a person who was visited by FSB thugs 4 times last year pressing me to have backdoors in our app... I do more than most people to protect rights of users to use IM
  475. Andrew Nenakhov I also know that 80-90% of e2ee users in russia are junkies
  476. Zash Beware selection bias :)
  477. Andrew Nenakhov Like, literally, junkies and their drug suppliers
  478. pep. So what
  479. pep. It's not worth giving options to the other 10%?
  480. Andrew Nenakhov So im allergic to e2ee demands. )) Because i have a very accurate mental image of an average user
  481. Andrew Nenakhov Also worth noting, that junkies are MUCH more inclined to pay for their privacy than those other 10%
  482. pep. I'm not denying that what I'm seeing is also crypto junkies. That doesn't mean I'm excluding legimate cases entirely, (whatever legitimate means)
  483. Matthew pep.: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Bv2Pf4rz62nB8omDFoolRmONmU47zIeGewJBbPeADoM
  484. pep. Thanks
  485. Matthew is some brief notes on matrix’s e2ee threat model from a while back
  486. Andrew Nenakhov Somehow these who love freedom and are offended by idea of being spied upon rarely pay. I guess that has to do with them treating e2ee as their constitutional right
  487. Andrew Nenakhov And noone pays for constitutional rights)
  488. Matthew (btw, it’s a pleasure to be having constructive xmpp<->matrix convo; bridging ftw)
  489. pep. :)
  490. pep. I know right, bridging ftw: https://ppjet.bouah.net/im-protocols-interop.png :P
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  492. Matthew i saw :p
  493. pep. Do you know a bit about OMEMO, and do you think that'd be compatible with Olm?
  494. pep. As in, is that even bridgable
  495. Zash Didn't they differ in some tiny part like IV or somesuch?
  496. pep. that would suck
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  501. pep. hmm, the certificate changes incorporated in synapse 0.99, that seems a bit meh. Judging how people never update their deployment, you're basically cutting off federation with them on a 3-months (was it?) notice
  502. pep. Where did I read that again
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  504. Zash It was in the talk IIRC?
  505. pep. There's a bit in the talk, but not the notice period
  506. pep. https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/1711/commits/f30e6851127874739659ffe2b2c211c4db6e50f0#diff-14fe96e0952d0411db3e9ecbbddce789R53 I remember reading this
  507. pep. Or my browser remembers, rather
  508. pep. "Once everybody has migrated off to v3 rooms, we'll be killing off v1 rooms", so, almost never :x
  509. Zash Let me tell you about Groupchat 1.0
  510. pep. I was going to mention it yeah
  511. Zash That was "The old thing" back when MUC was first written
  512. Matthew the difference is perhaps that we’re in position to upgrade a bit more ruthlessly and proactively
  513. Matthew and can massively cheat because there’s only one usable server
  514. pep. That surely simplifies lots of things. You're not in control of every deployment though
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  516. pep. I think that's the biggest barrier
  517. Zash I'm sure we could have done that in 2003 when jabber.org was still The Place
  518. Matthew of course, but if we ship synapse 1.0 that refuses to talk to self-signed certs and put it on the disproportionately large matrix.org, i suspect folks would get around to chucking a real cert on their servers
  519. Matthew and we‘ve given a month for folks to sort themselves out
  520. Matthew it remains to be seen if that’s enough
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  522. Matthew but i’d prefer to set a fast tempo for this sort of thing, and coincide it with the 1.0 etc
  523. Matthew and yes, i bet in the jabber.org days you could have done similarly for xmpp
  524. Matthew and yes, i know omemo, and it is compatible with olm (in fact the omemo xep at one point adopted olm). but that doesn’t help when the underlying protocols are entirely different
  525. pep. I was just curious to know if it was compatible enough to work over a bridge
  526. Matthew it’s like saying that xmpp and nntp both use tls, and then being sad when they can’t talk to one another
  527. Zash There comes a point where if you do that, you would be cutting yourself off from the wider federation.
  528. Matthew no, you always have to reencrypt e2e over a bridge
  529. Matthew or have a multihead client
  530. pep. yeah ok
  531. Zash Matthew: I don't think the low-level protocol matters for that. OTR "works" over any transport.
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  533. Matthew zash: only because otr is used for plain text payloads
  534. Zash It'll be more a matter of how what bits goes into OMEMO and OLM and whether they can come out the other end
  535. Zash Matthew: So is OMEMO
  536. Matthew whereas omemo and olm encrypt entire objects aiui
  537. Matthew or at least olm does
  538. Zash No, OMEMO is jsut the plain text body
  539. Matthew oh, ok
  540. Zash That's one of the problems some people have with it
  541. Matthew well, i guess we could do a dialect of olm which only encrypts the plaintext body, but that’s a bit bleurgh
  542. Zash Right
  543. Matthew especially as matrix is about syncing objs rather than IMs in the end
  544. Matthew we’re going to take a look at replacing olm and megolm with mls, anyway
  545. Matthew which at least might get everyone on the same ratchet
  546. Matthew but you’d have the same problem of what layer you encrypt at
  547. pep. yeah
  548. Matthew in terms of the body or the whole stanza (or event in matrix terminology)
  549. pep. What I'd like to have, is a client implementing the component interface, and being able to run bridges etc., this way I wouldn't care about these bridges decrypting and reencrypting
  550. Matthew basically, e2ee + bridging = sadpanda
  551. Matthew unless you run the bridge clientside, but then you’re basically back at a multiheaded client again.
  552. Zash and the cycle continues
  553. Matthew loads of the matrix bridges are built that way tho (whatsapp, imessage, signal etc)
  554. Matthew inderd
  555. Matthew and indeed
  556. Matthew i don’t think it’s that unreasonable to say that if you want e2e you should be on the same network tho
  557. Matthew assuming you have bridged public rooms and insecure bridged dms
  558. pep. I don't think it's reasonable to say that to users. They don't understand they're using Matrix or XMPP and they really don't care. Or at least my mom doesn't :)
  559. Zash That basically goes with all more advanced native features
  560. Matthew then perhaps there is more use for a “just the payload” e2e dialect
  561. Matthew for bridging purposes
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  563. Zash When doing bridges, there'll usually be things that can't be translated. So you end up with the lowest common denominators.
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  565. Matthew have filed https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/1871 fwiw
  566. pep. :)
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  578. vanitasvitae Matthew: nice to see you in this room :) Had some enlightening talks with matrix folks at fosdem
  579. vanitasvitae Very excited that you seem to have found some solutions to the "fingerprint flood problem" :D
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  587. Matthew cool :) glad you were able to sync with folks on our side
  588. Matthew and yup, cross signing is looking promising
  589. Matthew although we still have some thinkos in the current spec
  590. Matthew and need to do a 3rd rewrite
  591. Matthew https://github.com/uhoreg/matrix-doc/blob/cross-signing/proposals/1680-cross-signing.md is the 2nd iteration of it
  592. Matthew in case there’s anything of interest there.
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