XSF Discussion - 2019-02-19

To be fair 393 just documents what most email, IRC, and xmpp clients have been doing forever

And turns out, plenty good enough for what going on 30 years now?

Oh look, logs are working again.

Zash: great work, thanks!

:)

There's also MAM support now

no waaaay

MAMnamana

batmam?

supermam

moparisthebest: not exactly true, 393 uses some different markup, iirc

it seems some clients display a jid of a MUC and others its title or something. is there some XEP regarding this?

No.

Ge0rG, where does one get the 'title' from or what exactly is the right term for it?

jubalh: https://github.com/modernxmpp/modernxmpp/issues/3

jubalh, what do you have im in mind for profanity? assuming that is why you ask.

Ge0rG, thanks for the link. was not aware of that modermxmpp org. it's a nice idea to document the things there

ta, yep that's why I ask. I just thought about that we might want an option for users to configure what's displayed in their theme. I just joined a groupchat that was created with conversations and thus has random stuff as its jid, thats when i realized maybe we need to do something here ;)

ta, in case you didnt see it: 0.6.0 came out yesterday :)

jubalh: yeah, but it needs more love. Also check https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Category:Easy_XMPP

Ge0rG, cool thanks

We should probably rework stuff written on that easy_xmpp page to reflect stuff discussed in the sprint

jubalh: the challenge about MUC names is which of those fields is the "master" value and how to determine that.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-xmpp-ejabberdmongooseim-pankaj-soni/?published=t

wat

{"f":juliet/1',"t":"m:c","d":{"b":"Hi"}}

seriously :D

not sure if troll

u wut

edhelas, XMPP must be retired!

People spreading FUD, that's not from today

> XMPP is not mobile, developer or server friendly protocol questions?

https://softwarejoint.com/home#solutions

their product page, before talking about optimizing stuff on XMPP they should maybe think about simply optimzing their product page, takes 3 sec to load with plenty of useless JS animations

> Is there a better way? Yes, there is. We call it Yowza. zinid, why are you spamming us with marketing? :P

Ge0rG, because it's funny

zinid is secretly part of the Yowza team

Yowza. At least they have a nifty marketing name.

As opposed to ex-MP pee.

ZIMPY

Oh wait, doesn't that sound too similar to SIMPLE?

Ruined :(

https://www.instagram.com/zimpylovers/

looks like we were beaten by colored dresspants.

I guess we'll have to stay with hoodies

> Builds on Bert-RPC, WebSocket, Redis, Cassandra & MySql Some outdated shit. Where is Kafka? Where is Kubernetes?

Can't tell if joking

> XMPP is not mobile, developer or server friendly protocol That's true. However, the issues that plague XMPP would plague any protocol with a similar federated architecture.

this "xmpp must be retired" article is so wrong at any its argument, it makes this article brilliant

it's like a trash movie: it's better when it worse

And like with trash movies, even if you like them in principle, some of them are so bad it still hurts.

dunno, not a big fan of trash movies ;)

Talking about trash movies. XMPP was founded in 1999. Why not take the title of an 1999 trash movie as new name for XMPP?

Like e.g. "The Matrix"?

The Matrix ain't no trash movie!

Fight Club! Suits XMPP-Community pretty well.

10 things i hate about you....

the mummy

ta, the rules of fight club fail at 2119 (/8174). They could have used the proper keywords :)

Eyes Wide Shut

A lot of movies that year describe xmpp well

probably the zeitgeist

is there an example of when an application uses 'headline'?

We should have used headline for MAM responses, but we haven't

jubalh, PubSub notifications for instance.

Ge0rG, i think mam uses headline

its not a must, but i think most servers do if i remember right

then i'll look at pubsub later :) thanks

so many things to read ;)

do clients report which revision/version of an XEP they support? should they?

depends on the XEP

this only matters for p2p xeps and only for very very few

pubusb is c2s

if it matters clients announce what they use with disovery info

see xep 0030

!xsf_Martin, you’re blinking.

why does it only matter there? for clients to be compatible to each other maybe even more so. but doesnt it matter in all cases? if i implement MAM for example in a certain version and later there is another revision of it, i suppose the client should adhere to that new revision? if developers of that client change it might be hard to find out which revision the original author actually implemented, no? (on the other hand i really dont have experience what would change in a certain XEP, maybe its only typos and nothing important afterall)

jubalh, are you talking from a server developer view or client

if you implement pubsub in a client, other clients are not part of the transaction so why would you care what they implement?

in general if there are breaking changes in a XEP there is a namespace bumb in the node

lovetox, client

jubalh: for client to client, it doesn't make much sense today to check for capabilities - with Carbons and MAM, your messages will end up with all sorts of clients.

ah i see, namespace bump. so as a new dev to an existing client i should check which namespace we use currently and whether there has been a bump. or would it be incompatible anyways and i would get a message?

no look at the namespace

ok

there can be smaller changes that dont bump a namespace, but they are never breaking

ok good

what would happen if i have a namespace?

if there would be urn:xmpp:mam:1 urn:xmpp:mam:2 and urn:xmpp:mam:3. and my client was written for urn:xmpp:mam:1. it would depend on whether the server impelments several or usually they only support latest when they update to a new namespace?

in xep 313 its described how you find out what the server supports jubalh

a server announces in its disco info what features it has

often servers implement multiple versions of XEPs

MAM is such an example

thanks :)

jubalh: what are you up to?

ta, nothing special. i just need to get familiar with all the XMPP landscape so i can help better with profanity. there is a lot that i'm unsure about :)

Very important are profile pictures in ascii art ;-)

ta: you need to switch to poezio then. I hate that feature, but it's there.

jubalh: implement XEP-0379. Display a QR code for mobile users, generate and process preauth tokens! 😁

ta, actually i thought about this today ;D

I might be in Berlin in a few weeks. I heard there is an XMPP meetup. Anyone of you guys there? Maybe I should join in case its the same week

jubalh, please join xmpp:berlin-meetup@conference.conversations.im?join

debacle, done, thx

we also have an XMPP sprint in Berlin: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Sprints/2019_March_Berlin

all XMPP developers, coders, documentors, editors are invited

food and drinks are free

Careful when saying "free food and drinks", you're going to attract too many people in XMPP

that was intended :)

as long as they actually *do* something (other than eating and drinking) it's fine

hmm that would be interesting. though i will proably be there on another week, maybe i can come again for this event

at least in case you guys dont mind me to bother you with all kinds of beginnre xmpp dev questions ;)

we probably can't help you, but we would try

debacle: who takes care of the espenses?

Ge0rG, jubalh: i mentioned that feature because i find it a funny gimmick and it probably does not involve too much fiddling with xmpp itself in the first place.

ta, we have (almost certainly) a sponsor :) it's limited a little bit, but we expect we can have sandwiches and drinks during the days. The restaurant in the night has to be paid by everyone themselves. But we go to a relatively cheap one. We know, that many are students etc.

Okay. Thought nicr company is giving back.

jubalh, there is something you might like to adopt. There is a profanity plugin to support OMEMO. (In fact, there are even two of them.) The original author abandoned it, but I think it might be easier nowadays, because syndace wrote a nice OMEMO library in Python. You could go on with its development.

debacle, just today somebody started to work on OMEMO support

no plugin though, he started to implement it in c in the client (otr and pgp are also done like that)

but we were aware of the started plugins

Oh, great!

Just today I tried OMEMO successfully in jp (command line client of Salut à Toi) and Psi+.

jubalh: that is awesome news. I try to contain myself

ta, its rather unofficial yet. so lets not create pressure for the guy working on it :)

Yeah, we are in private here *cough*

;)

no need to reveal anything, just give us name, phone number, and physical address (which is *not* the MAC)

;p

Seriously its nice to see some progress

What's a good user understandable name for "muc bookmarks"? "my group chats"?

Activly joined/connected or stored and to selelct for connecting?

Stored

"Bookmarked (group) chats" ?

Favorited maybe?

or Starred

Favorites... Hmmm, that's a good one

+1 for Favorites

Though the implications are rather... "synchronized to all devices"

And here are a server developer, a security consultant and a UI-noob discussing UI. The result must be awesome ;-)

And autojoin is "automatically join on other devices"

Perfectly consistent with XMPP ✏

Ge0rG: joining, leaving mucs and synchronizarion is hard to explain to others. In sync would be easiest to explain, but i myself woulnt want it for all mucs.

https://op-co.de/tmp/muc-bookmarks.png

On my mobile i hust want the most important public mucs to be connected, the ones i stumbled in to be moderator... On desktop connect to all, but only open some... Its complicated.

Ge0rG: i think i have seen that pnenomenal piece of art before.

"Always show chat on other devices" for autojoin maybe?

What's a device?

Hm

What does it mean to have a bookmarked but not joined room?

Yes.

.

Zash: it doesn't have any effect by default, except that it's shown in some obscure dialogs?

Hm

Maybe Favorite should be bookmark+autojoin, while the more neutral Bookmark is just bookmark?

a bookmark deiitely sounds passive, not like something already joined/connected

https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Sprints/2019_January_Brussels/Pad

Maybe somebody can fix the mockdown

Why do you bookmark?

Why do you set it to autojoin?

(or not)

I wouldn't add non-autojoin bookmarks from *my* client

But as a user?

I bookmark rooms so I don't have to remember/find the room JID again, and to not have to remember to set my nick every time. I only mark a couple that i'm always interested in to autojoin; the rest are just for shortcuts whenever I do want to join in.

But the user should not need to set autojoin or remove it

autojoin is only for the client to know when it starts what your last conversations were

for a user there should only "Leave this conversation" or "Join this conversation"

the details of how the client remembers what conversations were joined and how and if he saves that on the server should not be the concern of the user

lovetox: what if a user wants to join all their private MUCs from the mobile, but not high traffic MUCs like this one?

Not even mobile vs desktop or traffic. I've got over 30 rooms bookmarked. Only 5 or so set to autojoin

Lance thats the most usual usecase

everybody does it like that

That could be a side effect from client UIs, where clients open up a new tab for each room, and you're only 'joined' while that tab is open. And I don't want 30+ tabs opened

Ge0rG, highly specialized usecase, where the user cares about traffic consumption and modifies his MUC joins because it saves him X percent in data traffic

thats nothing i would develop for

ooooh, now i think i understand the UX you're describing lovetox

lovetox: you are only saying that because you are a desktop developer! 😜

maybe, i also dont have a smartphone

but at least i know there is a billion whatsapp users, and they dont have the chance to optimize their traffic

didnt stop them from using it

They get their traffic optimized centrally

and they share so many pictures, how many MUCs do you have to join that you get the equiv of a 5 MB photo in traffic

I know I started the trolling, but now you've overdone.

The problem isn't large files but waking up the radio all the time for small packets

but the topic was bookmarks and muc joins ^^

Like for presence updates, or the millionth disco info request

yeah disco info is bad

if you change the disco info of the client

then join a muc

you are in a world of hurt

If you don't change it, it still hurts

why? should be cached then or not

Nobody is testing those code paths

People add junk hashes to their presence, respond with incorrect caps etc

Devs add stuff that makes every caps hash unique

actually i have a log warning for that, there are really client out there who calculate that wrong

https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/issues/3453

ah yeah i thought it was poezio, but never bothered to verify it