XSF Discussion - 2019-02-20


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  131. goffi https://dot.kde.org/2019/02/20/kde-migrating-matrix
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  135. zinid > Other alternatives, such as Telegram, Slack and Discord, although feature-rich, are centralized and built around closed-source technologies and offer even less control than IRC. Pretending XMPP doesn't exist
  136. zinid btw, they used to have an XMPP server
  137. Seve My first or second account was on their server
  138. Seve They kind of ignored me when I tried to approach them, so this does not surprise me
  139. Seve Sad news in my opinion but it is up to them in the end
  140. zinid I personally don't care, KDE is not representative
  141. !xsf_Martin What is a KDE?
  142. Seve I made this table with help from others here https://github.com/SeveFP/KDE_IM_Requirements/wiki/XMPP-Table and sent it to them and try to see if we could do something together but they didn't show any interest on it
  143. Seve when they announced they wanted to move to some solution
  144. Guus Let's try to focus on increasing our exposure, instead of discussing the exposure of Matrix. Let's learn from what they do right.
  145. Guus (That's actually a nice table, Seve!)
  146. goffi Guus: they have money
  147. goffi I mean, we could have polished UIs if more people were working full time on XMPP
  148. Guus Goffi: given that there are _several_ commercial providers of XMPP solutions: we have money too.
  149. goffi but I know only 2 clients which can do this: Conversations and Converse, and both are only done by one people as far as I know.
  150. Guus And there are ways to gain more money (we'll discuss this in upcoming board meetings too)
  151. Guus Try to think of solutions, not of problems.
  152. goffi you need to know the problem to find a solution
  153. Guus You identified two recurring issues: lack of money (which I doubt we have, to be honest), and a need to improve UI / UX in our clients.
  154. Guus I'll add a third one: we're not showing off enough of what we can do.
  155. goffi we have money in servers, not in clients.
  156. Guus "not having money" is not a problem. It's something that prevents us from finding some easy solutions.
  157. Guus "not having a good UI" is a problem.
  158. Guus let's worry about that.
  159. Guus I've tried reaching out to OpenSourceDesign, where I need to to follow ups
  160. Guus Ge0rG et al. are making progress on UX guidelines
  161. goffi Guus: it's link to being able to work full time. You need time to focus on polishing.
  162. goffi linked*
  163. Guus goffi that helps, but isn't going to fix UI/UX things. You need expertise, too.
  164. Guus where do we find these?
  165. Guus do we integrate our solutions at customers, where such expertise is available?
  166. Guus maybe we can ask for help there.
  167. Guus We have several pretty successful projects that are making money. Maybe we can start sharing experience on how to do that, so that more projects can reach that level.
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  169. Guus We can think of plenty of things that can be effective. That's way more stimulating that just being jealous at Matrix for "having money".
  170. Guus I'm still convinced that the XMPP proposition is at least as good as Matrix's one. So with that in mind, we must be able to at least match what they're doing.
  171. Guus but we'll have to put in the effort.
  172. Guus I'm going to visit a commercial org tomorrow, that I've met at FOSDEM. They expressed interest in stimulating XMPP. They offered to host a sprint, and they like to see the UX of the IOS clients to be improved. We'll discuss that tomorrow.
  173. Guus let's find more of these people, and reach out!
  174. goffi Guus: who's jealous ? it's not about being jealous, it's about explaining why they have more polished UI and attraction.
  175. pep. Guus, oh is that the one that we discussed with?
  176. Guus let's do more outreach - write more blog post, show off stuff that we _can_ do moar, better, faster.
  177. Guus goffi: so let's fix that. But I'm convinced that there's a level of jealousy in the XMPP community. In some MUCs, "matrix" is mentioned more than the topic of the MUC, which I think is such a shame.
  178. Guus pep. the two guys who talked to you after your presentation, yes
  179. goffi There have been lot ot unfair attacks from Matrix community (and leaders) toward XMPP one, specially at the beginning (it's slightly better now), so there have been reactions to that. And it's important to know what going around in other protocols/software.
  180. Guus Could someone help me get job postings at https://opensourcedesign.net/ for clients that want/need help from designers?
  181. pep. I want help from them as a server operator, for now :x I need to post that someday
  182. Guus please, do!
  183. zinid I agree with goffi - money is the problem
  184. zinid a few full time devs and you get your UI
  185. zinid and we obviously don't have money, I don't understand why Guus said the opposite
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  188. Guus zinid Money is not a problem, it offers a possible solution to a problem.
  189. pep. We do critically lack resources
  190. pep. At least in the public part of the community
  191. Guus so, let's find resources.
  192. zinid Guus, money is the obvious way to get human resources
  193. zinid Guus, other methods have failed
  194. zinid we tried a lot of them in the past 15 years
  195. Guus don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that we should not try to get more money. That's why I put this (sponsoring, financing) on the agenda of the board again. But I am sure that we can find more ways to attack the problem.
  196. pep. Guus, well that boils down to other people spending this money (time)
  197. pep. s/other //
  198. Guus pep. As XMPP is used pretty much everywhere, that must be possible to do.
  199. pep. All the sprints we do are not free, for example, time, transportation, accomodations, that's all on our own. Even if at the end I'm happy to do it, that comes with a cost
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  201. Guus I think the sprints are great to have, and I ❤ the people spending time/resources to make them happen!
  202. Guus Do we have employers (or customers) that are somehow invested in XMPP, and have UI/UX employees that they can spare for a day per week?
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  204. Guus commercial organizations do OSS sponsoring all the time. This could be one way of doing that.
  205. zinid > spare for a day per week? That's not how development works
  206. zinid you need some focus and dedication in order to produce something valuable
  207. Guus zinid: then find a collaboration that works better.
  208. pep. It's already better than nothing.
  209. Guus but in any case, 1 day per week is better than 0 days per week.
  210. zinid I don't buy that argument honestly, I hear it a lot
  211. Guus my point is: let's try to find ways to pull in resources.
  212. pep. And that's already how lots of the free software projects around here work
  213. zinid what you can say is 1 > 0, that's it
  214. Guus zinid please offer better solutions then!
  215. Guus I'm open to anything
  216. Guus as long as it's not "we don't have money so we're doomed"
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  218. goffi I'm working part time (80%), that mean that I have one day a week I pay on my own to work on my project, and I'm overwhelmed and have no time for now to work on UI polishing. I don't say we are doomed, but I say it's not sustainable on the long run without paid full time dev.
  219. Guus pep. I'm interested in your reason for searching for UI/UX experts as a server operator. What exactly would you like to see improved there?
  220. pep. See my wonderful design skills: https://cluxia.eu/
  221. pep. I'd like to have a color theme / logo
  222. pep. I have a few ideas, but no clue how to put that together
  223. Guus that seems like a solvable problem 🙂
  224. Seve goffi, I'm guessing somebody else apart from you working on the project would also help
  225. Seve I understand is hard to find collaboration, I know
  226. Guus pep. I think I can set you up with someone that can improve that page
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  228. Guus pep. could you send me a brief "this is what I would like to happen" summary?
  229. neshtaxmpp has left
  230. pep. Sure I'll try to write something down. Thanks
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  232. Ge0rG > The requested page "/2019/02/20/kde-migrating-matrix" could not be found. Looks like somebody pulled the plug
  233. Ge0rG Guus: "we have money" is illusive, because we as the XSF have a complex process to access that money, and it is (rightfully) demanded that the money is spent in a fair and impartial way. We can't just throw 10k€ at improving Monal, even if we have consensus that we badly need a good iOS client, nor can we throw 10k€ at me implementing my favorite yaxim feature.
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  235. Ge0rG I can see how sponsoring (open-access) Sprints and Summits and conferences is a Good Thing.
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  237. Ge0rG But this only goes so far in bringing forward XMPP
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  240. Guus Ge0rG all true. On top of the XSF getting more money, I'd also like to set up a way for individual projects to share knowledge about making money for themselves.
  241. Guus Some projects are more successful than others.
  242. Seve We for sure can help to promote crowdfunding campaigns though, if Monal has one, for example
  243. Guus We can learn from eachother there.
  244. Ge0rG Guus: I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but this would be a great task for The Jabber Software Foundation™
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  246. Guus Ge0rG make it happen, please.
  247. pep. Ge0rG, you mean sponsoring etc.? Or teaching people how to get money
  248. pep. Because I also want in on these tips
  249. Ge0rG Guus: I learned the hard way that You Shall Not Create A Jabber Org.
  250. Guus Ge0rG doesn't stop you from preparing to get people together, start collecting / sharing information, right?
  251. Ge0rG pep.: promoting sponsorship awareness as well as redistributing money
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  253. Guus the name is just a name.
  254. pep. Ge0rG, yeah well that was discussed at the summit, and I think we can do something with what we started already
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  256. Guus \o/ progress!
  257. pep. I'm patiently awaiting (I long) for the time I have _any_ time to put in it.. hopefully soon enough.
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  259. goffi Guus: I agree about sharing knowledge, but people may fear to see councurent projects raising and taking there grants/customers.
  260. goffi their*
  261. Guus goffi we don't know before we try.
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  263. Ge0rG Guus: what pep. said. We all have things on our TODO lists. But they always get overridden with higher-priority non-XMPP things.
  264. Guus goffi I'm also more thinking of sharing _techniques_ rather than _customers_
  265. Ge0rG Ironically, some of us might be able to invest more time if it were paid ;)
  266. Guus to give a very practical example
  267. Ge0rG So does anyone have a cache of https://dot.kde.org/2019/02/20/kde-migrating-matrix - the page was removed :(
  268. Guus someone told me it'd be a good idea to have a 'professional services' section on the igniterealtime website, so that people that search for ways to spend money on Openfire, Smack, etc would find people willing to accept money.
  269. Guus we put up a very basic section: I've already been approached through that a couple of times in the last few weeks alone.
  270. Ge0rG Guus: what do I need to do to get enlisted there?
  271. Ge0rG ...with my employer's hat on?
  272. Guus Ge0rG a credible link as a service provider of ignite-realtime related projects.
  273. goffi Guus: could the XSF help to put people willing to spend money for service/feature reach people offering them? Like a dedicate page on XMPP.org?
  274. Guus (who's your employer?)
  275. Ge0rG Guus: https://rt-solutions.de/en/
  276. Guus goffi I don't know - we can consider it.
  277. Guus Ge0rG from a quick browse on the website, I'm not seeing obvious Openfire/Smack service providing offerings?
  278. Ge0rG Guus: as a person, I'm heavily invested in Smack (and obviously experienced in XMPP as a whole), but there is no way to rent me out except via my employer.
  279. Ge0rG Guus: the latter is expensive, and heavily targeted at German companies, but there is a market for that, and if you need some kind of page on our homepage about competent XMPP support (I'd prefer XMPP over specific Ignite projects if possible), I can probably make it happen.
  280. Guus Ge0rG the way that we've set up that page at IgniteRealtime, we expect that visitors of the 'professional support' page to be searching for very specific solutions / expertise. So, if you'd like to be listed there, I suggest you have a landing page at your employers site, that lists the (Smack-based) services that you can provide.
  281. Guus I shared the IgniteRealtime "professional support" thingy as an example of how other OSS projects could also try to attract more money.
  282. Guus I'm not saying that this is the only solution. goffi already suggested having something that's more XMPP-generic - which seems to suit you better.
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  286. Guus So, although I'd certainly consider adding your company to the Ignite listing, I'm also/primarily using this as an example of things that other projects could also do.
  287. Guus and no, that won't fix all of our problems overnight
  288. Guus but by sharing ideas like this, we _will_ improve things.
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  296. Guus goffi From a quick browse, I'm not finding a way for me to hire someone on my salut-a-toi problems (if I have one), at https://salut-a-toi.org/
  297. Guus Maybe considering adding that to the website?
  298. Guus Maybe consider adding that to the website?
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  301. goffi Guus: yes, I'm currently redoing the website so I can add this. But SàT itself was not ready so far to be used in production, it should be alright starting with the incoming release.
  302. goffi We've made a couple of strategic mistakes, starting by not doing the famous "release early, realease often"
  303. Guus goffi I have no experience with it, so I can't judge. One thing that I can say is that I am sometimes amazed at how people use pre-release, not-ready stuff in production anyway 🙂
  304. pep. Wait, isn't that what production means? :)
  305. Guus pep. you also deploy on Fridays, don't you?
  306. pep. I deploy on weekends, even worse
  307. goffi yes, that what one of my friend well aware of business stuff told me: you should not wait to have something bullet proof, nobody does.
  308. Guus goffi sounds like you have a friend that could offer ideas to more of the XMPP community!
  309. zinid > zinid please offer better solutions then! > I'm open to anything > as long as it's not "we don't have money so we're doomed" Guus: I have no solutions except money, and even that is not easy to collect and redistribute
  310. Guus maybe you should invite him to share ideas
  311. Guus zinid I just shared an idea on how to make money. We can use more ideas like that.
  312. goffi Guus: he already wrote interesting reads on his blog: https://blog.addictedtointer.net/2017/09/26/goodbye-cozy/
  313. Guus I'll share another one. I've heard of several people in companies that would like to 'sponsor' an open source project that they're using, but setting up sponsoring through their corporate procedures is difficult (not standardized). What is, however, easy for them to do, is to buy a 'support contract'. So, OSS projects could start offering 'support contracts' with the idea that this really is just sponsoring.
  314. Guus I'm currently not doing that, so I can't tell if it's effective - but again, it's somethign that you might consider for your project.
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  320. Guus As a third, and final, idea / food for thought: I've learned about idea 1 and 2 when I met up with people at either FOSDEM or (what then was not yet called) sprints. I highly recommend getting together like that!
  321. Ge0rG Guus: those things should be documented in the xdf maybe?
  322. Ge0rG https://xmpp-developers.foundation
  323. Guus Maybe. Go for it. Not sure if these are thoughts to be stamped as 'approved by the XDF'.
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  327. Guus Ge0rG it's discourse link is broken: https://discourse.xmpp-developers.foundation/
  328. Ge0rG Somebody needs to open an issue on https://github.com/XMPP-Developers-Foundation/website I suppose
  329. pep. I am already ready to oppose the use of discourse, fwiw
  330. pep. We already have a venue for that, which is jdev@
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  332. Guus https://github.com/XMPP-Developers-Foundation/website/issues/1
  333. pep. Which I was planning to discuss with daniel
  334. Ge0rG is jdev@ publically logged?
  335. pep. I mean the ML
  336. Ge0rG Ah.
  337. pep. Maybe it's time to revive it instead of pretending it's not there
  338. Guus off to lunch with me.
  339. Ge0rG There were six mails this year.
  340. Ge0rG Lunch is an awesome idea. BBL
  341. pep. Or.. if you really want to kill that list, it's not impossible to have bulletin boards on XMPP, and goffi has a barebone implementation of one in SàT. Porting discourse to XMPP would be another idea.
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  343. Guus pep.: Flow mentioned something like that for Ignite Realtime earlier
  344. Guus Using smack
  345. pep. Like which part?
  346. Guus XMPP Discourse integration
  347. pep. I see
  348. pep. By that I meant not just authentication right
  349. pep. I also meant using XMPP as the storage backend (pubsub)
  350. Guus I think Flows Idea was to post replies to discourse, using XMPP
  351. pep. Well if you have it using pubsub, yes that'd be possible
  352. Guus I think it already offers an API that you can hook an XMPP client library in
  353. Guus Unsure, talk to Flow. 😉
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  358. pep. The thing is that I'd just want discourse to be a dumb frontend
  359. Ge0rG Then we could use xmpp as the transport and matrix as the backend! 😜
  360. Guus Unsure if that is achievable
  361. MattJ It is if you write it in Lua
  362. goffi :D
  363. goffi but that's a point which is annoying me a bit, we have tools not perfect but usable and which can be easily improved, and community want to use non XMPP software instead. How can we promote XMPP if the community itself doesn't use it?
  364. goffi (lunch time)
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  383. Seve XMPP based forums is something I dream with since long time ago actually, I will ping you goffi I think, I'm really curious
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  385. jonas’ we do use XMPP, don’t we?
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  390. zinid jonas’, how is jabbercat doing?
  391. zinid oh, 2 months without a single commit
  392. pep. It's dead! Don't use it it's unmaintained!!1!1
  393. zinid I won't, okay
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  395. debacle Is there anybody in the XMPP community who does *not* have their very own client? That's so nice about XMPP: You can choose betwenn many, many clients, all bad in their own way. Fixing issues would be boring, so why not write a new one?
  396. Guus ME!
  397. Guus but I have my own server. Does that count?
  398. MattJ Real server devs have their own client too
  399. debacle And I have only a bot.
  400. alameyo only one client? you need one on each platform
  401. Guus Also, I'm wrapping every web-based client that I can find as a plugin... 😛
  402. Ge0rG MattJ: what's yours? :D
  403. MattJ clix, for the command-line
  404. pep. Also scansion?
  405. MattJ scansion counts too, I guess :)
  406. MattJ But isn't for users
  407. Ge0rG ...as opposed to clix, right?
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  409. MattJ Absolutely :)
  410. Ge0rG Uhm. Yeah.
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  413. jonas’ zinid, currently the improvements are more happening in aioxmpp ;)
  414. jonas’ looking forward to implement MIX there and then in JC
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  416. zinid jonas’, you need to work full time on JC, JSF (created by Ge0rG) will pay you
  417. Ge0rG zinid: and you will pay the JSF?
  418. zinid Ge0rG, no, I'm affiliated, I cannot pay, I can only receive
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  425. jonas’ zinid, sounds like a plan
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  428. zinid btw, the current state of matrix.org patreon is ~$3800 per month
  429. zinid I wonder if the xsf can collect similar money
  430. debacle jonas' why doesn't JC work on JC? :)
  431. Alex > I wonder if the xsf can collect similar money we easily can
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  434. zinid Alex: I don't find the xsf at patreon 😁
  435. zinid I see only sponsoring page where the amount starts at $1000
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  438. goffi Seve: https://www.libervia.org/forums/list it's really basic but working. The hierarchy of forums is stored in a pubsub node linked to the language (so you can have different topics in different languages), and then it's XEP-0277 blog nodes with open access. Experimentation is concluant, so that one of the protoXEP I need to write and propose.
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  455. flow Ge0rG, looks like the blog post was edited: https://dot.kde.org/2019/02/20/kde-adding-matrix-its-im-framework
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  475. pep. They say matrix provides "presence" in that article, I wonder what they mean by that
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  477. pep. Is it just the status? online/unavailable/offline/whatever
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  506. jonas’ Ge0rG, can you confirm real quick that you’re happy with this version of the '156 diff? https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/160145b9152fbae62620637a70830e91b597987e
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  524. Ge0rG jonas’: 👍
  525. jonas’ non-emoji please
  526. Ge0rG jonas’: yes
  527. jonas’ thx
  528. Ge0rG jonas’: the English is a bit bumpy, but I'm OK with the content
  529. jonas’ feel free to fix the former
  530. Ge0rG Or... I'll just go back to work
  531. jonas’ or that
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  540. pep. Ge0rG, also to answer your question, http://logs.jabber.org/jdev@conference.jabber.org.html, but that seems to have stopped in 2015, not sure why
  541. pep. I wonder what this was, http://logs.jabber.org/devcon@conference.jabber.org.html
  542. pep. hmm, and https seems borked: "The certificate is only valid for the following names: logs.xmpp.org, muc.xmpp.org, www.xmpp.org, xmpp.org"
  543. pep. ohhh, logs.xmpp.org ~
  544. pep. less links though :(
  545. pep. What's techreview@muc.xmpp.org?
  546. pep. No description, no name
  547. pep. hmm, and topic says "visit xmpp:xsf@muc.xmpp.org?join instead"
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  569. pep. https://jitsi.org/news/telephony-support-on-meet-jit-si/ anybody tried their gateway support? Also is it possible to self-host that dial-in gateway or is it all closed?
  570. Guus pep. although I'm not sure, I think they're using a third-party dial-in gateway
  571. Guus I'm guessing that they're pulling in the media through their SIP stack (but that's a total guess)
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  605. Guus What's the state of each of the XMPP IOS clients?
  606. zinid quite bad
  607. Guus what's lacking in clients, specifically
  608. zinid ChatSecure is abandoned and Monal has strange distribution policy and full of bugs
  609. Guus _apart from money_ 😉
  610. Guus ChatSecure had a release last December?
  611. zinid that's what I'm told 🙂
  612. Ge0rG Guus: maybe, but that release didn't fix some show stopper bugs. And general development seems to be down to yaxim speed
  613. Guus What are the show stopper bugs?
  614. Guus is someone in contact with their developers?
  615. Guus (are they here?)
  616. Ge0rG zinid: what's with the Monal distribution? The author fixed GDPR some months ago
  617. jonas’ there was something about OMEMO the other day
  618. zinid Ge0rG, he invented yet another problem recently
  619. jonas’ Ge0rG, https://monal.im/blog/omemo-and-french-laws/
  620. Ge0rG Guus: https://github.com/ChatSecure/ChatSecure-iOS/issues/906
  621. Ge0rG Guus: I've chatted with Chris some time ago, but he looks too busy to push forward
  622. Ge0rG zinid: that's a problem invented by the French government, enforced by Apple...
  623. zinid Ge0rG, maybe
  624. Guus Ge0rG that's just one bug. That surely isn't stopping ChatSecure from being the Conversations equivalent on IOS?
  625. Ge0rG And regarding bugs, yeah, Monal is very fresh. Don't use it for MUCs yet.
  626. Ge0rG Guus: it's generally crappy, has a horrible backend store performance problem, doesn't quite get stream management right and is more abandoned than not. That bug is just my canary for a simple issue that's very annoying for users and easy to fix for a developer.
  627. Ge0rG But yeah, it's the Conversations equivalent on iOS! 🤣🤣
  628. Guus What flavors do we have on IOS? ChatSecure, Monal, Beagle, ... ?
  629. zinid depends on flavors you prefer 🙂
  630. Guus I'm primarily trying to see if there's one that's most likely to be pushed over the finish line
  631. zinid Monal, seems like
  632. zinid but I'm not sure you can communicate with the author
  633. Ge0rG there is also Xabber, which looks like a prototype mockup
  634. zinid Xabber doesn't even support MUC
  635. Ge0rG Guus: currently, Monal has the highest trajectory. However, the developer is on a multi-week trip right now
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  640. Guus What are the current issues with Monal?
  641. Guus MUC support, apparently?
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  644. zinid Holger, did you try Monal recently?
  645. Ge0rG Guus: MUC support is very rudimentary, OMEMO is apparently very freshly in.
  646. Ge0rG I can't evaluate the latter.
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  687. Holger zinid: Yes, kinda better than ChatSecure, not good of course. The author is more active right now.
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  704. Guus Holger: please elaborate
  705. Holger Guus: Better than ChatSecure because (a) I didn't see it loose messages and (b) it has that VoIP flag that allows it to use silent notifications (unlike ChatSecure which produces "New message!" notifications). Still not good because bugs (duplicates and whatnot), UI is meh, and MUC still rudimentary as Ge0rG said.
  706. Guus Tx
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  724. peter Does anyone other than Guus and Ralph have expenses that need to be reimbursed from FOSDEM? I plan to go to the bank on Friday to send reimbursements.
  725. j.r has left
  726. Guus (nothing pops to mind - I think I reimbursed everyone that spent money that wasn't sponsoring - but I might be forgetting something)
  727. peter OK, thanks.
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  746. Guus intosi - didn't you buy stuff for the stand, perhaps?
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  761. rion > Xabber doesn't even support MUC Their dev told me they invented something better than muc and mix
  762. Ge0rG Yeah. Sure.
  763. moparisthebest if it's been implemented once it's already better than MIX ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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  766. rion 🙂
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  776. zinid > Their dev told me they invented something better than muc and mix the whole point of xmpp is standards, I don't see any points in inventing proprietary extensions, eventually you'll end up in supporting both: you proprietary wheel and the standard one
  777. jonas’ rion, they re-invented group chat 1.0
  778. Zash Isn't part of the point of XMPP the freedom to invent your own extensions?
  779. zinid Zash: in theory yes
  780. zinid in practice I already said how this will end up
  781. zinid and I know that because we at processone have such problems now
  782. zinid note that was against that shit from the beginning 😁
  783. zinid *that I
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  786. zinid we have currently proprietary SM, proprietary push, proprietary MUC. some customers want that or this, interaction between the extensions is a nightmare
  787. peter ouch
  788. Zash Interactions between standardized extensions can be complicated as well:)
  789. zinid Zash: true, and having proprietary don't help at all, quite contrary
  790. peter Just because you have the freedom to do something doesn't mean it's a good idea. ;-)
  791. rion > they re-invented group chat 1.0 I didn't see the protocol. But he promissed to add support to every piece of xmpp software.
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  793. zinid lol
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  797. Andrew Nenakhov > if it's been implemented once it's already better than MIX ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It's already implemented, working on server and one client, covered with tests, has nicknames, badges, history search, messages retraction, flexible system of permissions and restrictions, can work pretty well with legacy clients, can work if participants server does not support it, can work with multiple devices (seamlessly even if one client does support it and another does not)
  798. Andrew Nenakhov Everyone interested may come and see. Like, right now.
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  800. Andrew Nenakhov rion, since you are Russian I can give you access to Google doc
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  802. Andrew Nenakhov > What are the current issues with Monal? My biggest issue with it was that it just doesn't work.
  803. Ge0rG It works much better than Xabber ios... 🤷‍♂️
  804. moparisthebest "implemented on 1 client and server that work together" makes it better than MIX regardless of anything else
  805. moparisthebest you can go into endless discussions about whether MIX is superior protocol-wise, but none of that really matters when it seems like no one will ever implement both ends
  806. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, > It works much better than Xabber ios... 🤷‍♂️ It is a false statement.
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  808. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: less false than: > My biggest issue with it was that it just doesn't work.
  809. Andrew Nenakhov Xabber for iOS is in pretty reliable state, and my Monal has never-ever received a push notification.
  810. Ge0rG I've tested both, latest Testflight
  811. Andrew Nenakhov Can record you a video like right now of monal and Xabber running concurrently
  812. Ge0rG Xabber didn't even connect to my account, had to register one on the Xabber server
  813. Ge0rG And even then nothing worked, most functions were just mockup
  814. Andrew Nenakhov Maybe some non standard configuration, whatever
  815. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, liar )
  816. Ge0rG Yeah. Right.
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  819. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov [21:38]: > Ge0rG, liar ) zinid, is it you?
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  821. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: I take it as a hint that you don't want me to retest and open issues on the tracker? You are probably already fed up with my issues on Xabber android anyway... 😁
  822. Andrew Nenakhov No, I just want to to stop lying
  823. jonas’ Andrew Nenakhov, maybe don’t assume the worst right away
  824. Andrew Nenakhov Just a sec, uploading a video taken right now
  825. jonas’ instead, consider: - there may be a situation with some devices which break things in your software - there might be a language barrier of some type - any other technical weirdness which might influence how the app is (not) working
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  827. Andrew Nenakhov https://photos.app.goo.gl/Z4kh4CF7nb8mvRUX7
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  829. Andrew Nenakhov jonas’, indeed it is possible that he has some weird setup for connecting. Besides ours, we test against jabber.ru, xmpp.jp and jabber.at servers.
  830. rion hm I thought that would be a video of a group chat.
  831. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: my statement was as true as your statement about Monal. I've tested both, Monal worked, Xabber didn't. So who's lying?
  832. Andrew Nenakhov You are, of course.
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  835. moparisthebest my guess would be neither, isn't it perfectly possible both of you are telling the truth?
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  838. Andrew Nenakhov Send me a video of monal receiving push notification.
  839. moparisthebest surely you aren't saying Xabber works 100% of the time everywhere and has 0 bugs
  840. Andrew Nenakhov Like after 10 minutes of being in background.
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  842. Andrew Nenakhov moparisthebest, of course xabber has lots of bugs
  843. lskdjf has joined
  844. Andrew Nenakhov But calling it a mock-up opposing to monal, it's an insult
  845. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: Monal is using VoIP priority push. Works reliably for me even when I kill it
  846. Andrew Nenakhov My managers suffered for years with monal
  847. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: my iPhone isn't charged and hidden somewhere in a bag
  848. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: Monal significantly improved in the last two or three months
  849. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: but calling me a liar won't make me create a demo video just for you, sorry.
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  854. Andrew Nenakhov Whatever
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  856. lovetox hug it out :D
  857. intosi I spent a few euros, but not worth the trouble. See it as sponsorship.
  858. moparisthebest Andrew Nenakhov, means nothing coming from me of course, but I also tend to like running code first, specs later, just hoping you release specs soon and are open for feedback etc :D
  859. intosi ^ Guus
  860. Andrew Nenakhov > hm I thought that would be a video of a group chat. Left my laptop in the office,so not now. However, group chats can be experienced live on https://web.xabber.com/develop/ right now
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  863. Andrew Nenakhov moparisthebest, I'm very open for feedback
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  870. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, well, I've installed monal just now, set up my account, waited till roster loads, pressed home button.
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  872. Andrew Nenakhov 10 seconds later I send a message... And 2 minutes later it's still not delivered.
  873. moparisthebest Andrew Nenakhov, sorry if I missed it but are the specs someplace public?
  874. Andrew Nenakhov I'm not surprised. I never saw it work even remotely reliable. Not that pushes not at all work, sometimes am hour later it explodes and loads something. But ... Very unpredictable
  875. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: nobody will implement non-standard extension, just accept it
  876. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: Testflight or store? Do you have the push XEP active on your server.
  877. Andrew Nenakhov moparisthebest, you see, it's in Google doc, can share it but it's all in Russian
  878. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: I told you that already btw 😁
  879. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, store, 0357 supported
  880. moparisthebest zinid, that's no problem if he plans to standardize it, you should submit it as a XEP as soon as you can Andrew Nenakhov
  881. zinid also, MIX will be released with ejabberd 19.02 next week, so "nobody implemented it" won't hold anymore
  882. Andrew Nenakhov zinid, non standard extensions can very well become one.of course xsf can still pursue that dream of mix or whatever.
  883. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: too late, mix will become a thing
  884. Andrew Nenakhov Anyway our group chats has pretty decent compatibility with any legacy client
  885. zinid ejabberd and conversations will implement it and it is documented within the xsf
  886. moparisthebest zinid, which clients work with ejabberd 19.02 MIX ?
  887. zinid moparisthebest: conversations branch
  888. MattJ zinid, but nobody can use it because you don't know if everyone else's server supports it
  889. MattJ (or client)
  890. moparisthebest interesting, so then maybe it's no longer "no one implements it" that would be a step forward
  891. moparisthebest surprising for a 4+ year old XEP
  892. moparisthebest in a good way
  893. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: I suggested you to release a xep back then, you did not
  894. Andrew Nenakhov Our group chat can be installed on any serer )
  895. lovetox Problem is almost never the XEP itself in my expierience, its just that devs have no time for experiments
  896. moparisthebest still can release a XEP, who knows, maybe it's far superior protocol-wise to MIX
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  898. Andrew Nenakhov zinid, it wasn't ready. Also my xep guy is fucking seriously ill for the last couple of months
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  900. zinid I wonder why I cannot cite MattJ, seems like he is not joined 😁
  901. MattJ Blame MUC :)
  902. Ge0rG zinid: welcome to GC1.0
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  904. flow MattJ, "nobody can use it" appears exaggerated…
  905. MattJ flow, hmm?
  906. flow MattJ, your response to zinids annoucement that ejabberd will support MIX
  907. MattJ I think it's fine (even good) for closed environments, custom clients, etc.
  908. lovetox ... i think he meant why you think that
  909. flow I hope that I, using ejabberd, will be able to join a MIX at some other ejabberd once it is released and i've updated my ejabberd
  910. lovetox :D
  911. MattJ flow, you will, of course
  912. MattJ But you'll be alone :)
  913. flow Then I hope that I am not nobody :)
  914. MattJ As soon as you want to invite someone from another server, either their server or their client (or one of their clients) won't support MIX
  915. flow Right, but I am willing to continue with that experiment
  916. lovetox does the other server need support?
  917. lovetox honest question i didnt read all the XEPs yet
  918. flow It sure would be nice if a MUC successor wouldn't require home-server support
  919. Ge0rG I'm so glad I demanded full muc compatibility back then.
  920. MattJ flow, please don't think that I'm not happy that people are experimenting, or implementing MIX
  921. flow And maybe someone will come up with a solution that does not and that solution experiences high traction in means of implementations
  922. Andrew Nenakhov flow, xabber gruop chat does not require home server support
  923. MattJ I'm glad that something is finally coming of all the work that has been put into it
  924. MattJ But it doesn't change this simple fact that it is badly designed if we ever want to see it widely adopted on the network
  925. MattJ (within the next 5-10 years)
  926. Ge0rG MattJ [22:15]: > But it doesn't change this simple fact that it is badly designed. There, I fixed it.
  927. flow Andrew Nenakhov, that is great, but I was told that the spec is only in russian? That maybe hurts adoption a bit outside the native speakers
  928. MattJ Ge0rG, I don't think it's all that bad, but it made different design choices to MUC
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  930. flow MattJ, and by badly designed you mean the design as whole or the fact that it requires home server support?
  931. MattJ Ge0rG, if you're developing certain kinds of closed group chat, I think it's pretty neat to have... compared to needing to implement all the problems MUC has for those environments
  932. Ge0rG MattJ: I think the proxy JID "feature" is adding huge complexity for a very small user group.
  933. MattJ flow, mainly just the latter
  934. flow Then that isn't bad design in my eyes. It is one of two possibly design choices with that regard, each with their pros and cons
  935. Andrew Nenakhov flow, we just don't have time to translate it. And we planned to start translating once it's really final
  936. flow I personally would make the same decission. But I would also encourage other approaches. Ultimately it is not the XEP, not the council but the ecosystem which determines the survivor
  937. oli xmpp => just amazing
  938. MattJ flow, please re-read what I wrote
  939. MattJ flow, I didn't say it was "bad design." I said it was "badly designed if we ever want to see it widely adopted on the network"
  940. MattJ I said in a later message that I think it is great for some use-cases
  941. oli so we will have muc and mix and the xabber-stuff-which-is-the-best and some other upcoming alternatives, because mix is badly designed for wide adoption
  942. flow MattJ, ah yes, ok, sorry, but I am also not sure about that. The implementation effort for MIX-PAM is manageable
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  945. flow at least that is my impression
  946. MattJ flow, it's not just about implementation, it's about deployment
  947. flow Ok, but you have to deploy anything that is new, how is MIX different?
  948. MattJ Because many of the problems with MUC can be solved in backwards-compatible ways
  949. MattJ which allows for progressively improving the experience, as users upgrade their clients, etc.
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  951. MattJ As it is right now, MUC will still be a fact of life for everyone until we reach some high percentage of MIX support in clients/servers in years to come
  952. flow That is probably true, and I fully support the efforts put into MUC.
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  954. flow Yep, fully aggree (minus the timeframe)
  955. MattJ and if everyone is using MUC daily, because MIX is unusable for general-purpose chats, there isn't much to motivate developers (assume client developers) to maintain both MUC and MIX in their clients
  956. flow It could be 5+ years, could also be 2-3 years
  957. MattJ Let me know how you plan to upgrade all those Pidgin users who still don't have MAM :)
  958. MattJ which is a significant portion of the XMPP userbase, like it or not
  959. flow apt remove pidgin
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  961. MattJ It doesn't work like that, but we all wish it did
  962. MattJ I spoke to multiple people at FOSDEM who directly went from Pidgin+XMPP -> Matrix
  963. MattJ because Pidgin was their experience of XMPP, and it was rubbish
  964. flow No yes, of course, but I am not arguing against MUC and MUC+, but for being adventurous and progressive regarding a new persistent groupchat protocol
  965. MattJ Pidgin was an extremely popular client, most people who used XMPP "back in the day" used it, and don't keep up with modern client development like everyone in this room does
  966. flow which may or may not be MIX
  967. MattJ This room is a bubble in the XMPP sphere, trust me, out there it's Pidgin all the way
  968. MattJ (ok, maybe I exaggerate a little here :) )
  969. flow No I trust you, I was also a pidgin user when I was in the computer room at my university
  970. MattJ But you can't underestimate the deployed userbase. Except for group chats to be used only by XSF members, you're basically always going to have at least one occupant who isn't able to join a MIX room
  971. MattJ for quite some time to come
  972. MattJ Obviously the sooner we get the ball rolling with MIX, the sooner we can switch to it
  973. flow That is why I hope for multi protcol rooms
  974. MattJ Which is why I'm glad it now has implementations
  975. MattJ Yes, multi-protocol rooms will help somewhat
  976. MattJ But if you can access every MIX room via MUC, and MUC is already implemented and compatible with every server... why maintain two group chat implementations in every client?
  977. MattJ It's a hard sell if you ask me
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  981. flow Well I am speculating that MIX(like) protocols provide better posibilities than MUC when it comes to hibernated mobile devices
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  984. flow Or for huge participant rooms where you often do not want pushes of every message, and only read the backlog when you open the window of the channel/room
  985. MattJ For sure
  986. MattJ But if over the next year we solve both those things for MUC...
  987. flow That is the point, I am not sure if they are solvable, or solvable in I way I would like
  988. flow There where a lot of improvements to MUC in the past years, but I could imagine that at some point there is just no more one could fix without either sacrificing backwards compatibility *or* really dirty hacks
  989. oli you only need one android, one ios and one cross platform desktop client
  990. Andrew Nenakhov MUC is based on flawed ideas and must be destroyed.
  991. flow I could be wrong, that is why I say "let's go down both holes and see where we come out"
  992. Andrew Nenakhov Xmpp does not have 2-5 years for this. Our ship is burning.
  993. Andrew Nenakhov And is going to be overtaken by matrix or something else if nothing changes
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  996. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: relax, xmpp is in zombie mode now just like IRC 😁
  997. zinid zombies cannot die
  998. lovetox yeah also the more people adopt it the more clients are out there, if they get another server impl except the reference
  999. lovetox they will suffer the same problems as xmpp
  1000. lovetox its easy to make something work when everyone uses the same server software
  1001. lovetox we know this since whatsapp
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  1003. zinid and the same version of the same client btw
  1004. lovetox zinid, to be fair there are more than one client
  1005. pep. "MattJ> I spoke to multiple people at FOSDEM who directly went from Pidgin+XMPP -> Matrix" I wonder how the Matrix support for libpurple is
  1006. lovetox but yes probably most use the same
  1007. Andrew Nenakhov lovetox, they'll suffer, no doubt, but as a protocol that has already won, not as competotor
  1008. pep. Or did they change clients entirely
  1009. pep. In which case they could have just changed XMPP clients..
  1010. lovetox why Andrew Nenakhov ?
  1011. pep. Guus, here is an actionable item for you, put money on pidgin XMPP support :P
  1012. zinid > lovetox, they'll suffer, no doubt, but as a protocol that has already won, not as competotor even so, I don't see how this can bother us, xmpp has always been a marginal protocol, what has been changed?
  1013. Guus pep.: I was thinking the same
  1014. lovetox yeah xmpp is already in a very small niche
  1015. pep. If you manage to revive libpurple's XMPP support, then finally we'll all stop ranting about it, and people might be a bit happier
  1016. Andrew Nenakhov Because they have an image of a shiny new protocol that currently has no interoperability problems and can be seen as a replacement for stale old not hipster friendly xmpp
  1017. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: so good luck to them
  1018. lovetox yeah its called hype
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  1020. Andrew Nenakhov Niche status won't change if xmpp does not roll out something that appeases to a wider audience
  1021. lovetox you can also learn a new programming language every year
  1022. lovetox because they invent something new that beats all the other
  1023. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: but it will not, I already ranted about this yesterday in another conference
  1024. lovetox but truth is the people that write C since 20 years will probably never out of a job
  1025. zinid xmpp is for nerds and their relatives, we just need to accept this and go this line
  1026. lovetox haha i like it zinid :D
  1027. zinid I don't see the problem here 😁
  1028. zinid you cannot fight WhatsApp or Google, that's not our league
  1029. lovetox yeah me too, there are billions that use whatsapp
  1030. Andrew Nenakhov zinid, I plan to ruin your nerdy lair.
  1031. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: let me know when you succeed
  1032. Andrew Nenakhov :) ok
  1033. Andrew Nenakhov lovetox, analogy between computer languages and social networks is not valid.
  1034. oli Andrew Nenakhov: xabber group chat does not require home server support, but uses some group server? is the group server (component) open source?
  1035. Andrew Nenakhov It will be open source, yes.
  1036. Andrew Nenakhov If anyone's interested we can ship test version tomorrow
  1037. Andrew Nenakhov It works with a central group chat server. We have ideas to make it distributed in the future, nothing seems to prevent that architecturally, but not all at once
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  1039. oli distributed means matrix style?
  1040. Andrew Nenakhov I don't know matrix style exactly. )
  1041. zinid stupid full replica copying
  1042. Andrew Nenakhov Thing is, our group chat has a fixed jid. If that server dies, .. it's unreachable via that jid
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  1046. Andrew Nenakhov In theory we can make failover jids so clients can msg any of those but it's clumsy.
  1047. Andrew Nenakhov zinid, how do they address group chats in matrix? I had an impression they have centralized index (or indexes) to discover channels
  1048. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: I am not sure, but looks like they just replicate room history, just like rsync
  1049. Andrew Nenakhov Replicate between what? Servers? Every server in federation has own chat history?
  1050. zinid yes
  1051. zinid something like that if I understand correctly
  1052. edhelas https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=KDE-Matrix-Support
  1053. zinid edhelas: so slow
  1054. Andrew Nenakhov When we were discussing architecture of our Groupchats, thought experiment ran into too many potential problems, especially when retracting messages, and syncing changes and accounting for possibility of s2s failure
  1055. edhelas :( sorry
  1056. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: distributed replication is hard
  1057. zinid especially when you try to invent it from scratch 😁
  1058. Andrew Nenakhov Yes. And not really necessary.
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  1063. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: modern jabber implements distributed replication exactly (using xmpp as a transport), so it's kinda necessary
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  1067. Andrew Nenakhov Twitter survived 7% total downtime in 2009, any decent server admin can achieve just 5% downtime
  1068. zinid not everyone realizes this
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  1076. zinid > Twitter survived 7% total downtime in 2009, any decent server admin can achieve just 5% downtime yeah, tell that to chatme.im 😁
  1077. zinid is it alive yet btw? 🤔
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  1079. Andrew Nenakhov Never heard of chatme.im
  1080. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: it's from operators@ mail list 😁
  1081. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: I use it as an example of xmpp fragility
  1082. edhelas zinid you have the link ?
  1083. edhelas found it
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  1085. edhelas that's also why I'm moving jappix.com and fr.movim.eu :D they were hosted on the same server as chatme.im
  1086. edhelas the admin just turned of the server without any notices, so I just asked him to turn it on again for a few days to let me migrate things before it's definitely stopped
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  1090. zinid yeah, my point is that from common user™ perspective Twitter or WhatsApp is more stable
  1091. zinid than any xmpp server
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  1093. Andrew Nenakhov Current Twitter is extremely stable.
  1094. Andrew Nenakhov Failwhale years were loooong ago
  1095. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: true, and it's possible to build extremely stable xmpp service, just it requires a lot of work
  1096. zinid no free-time admins can do that
  1097. Andrew Nenakhov @xabber.org had two major downtimes in 1.5 years, both caused by Linode
  1098. Andrew Nenakhov Of course it is maintained by paid admin.
  1099. zinid Andrew Nenakhov: sure, because you're hosted in the same place, no diversity
  1100. Andrew Nenakhov We have a backup xmpp server on digitalocean but so far sole DB server, can't make it failover because of reasonz
  1101. zinid I understand those reasons 😁
  1102. zinid I mean no blame, it's hard
  1103. Andrew Nenakhov )) there is one more silly reason you don't know but I'm to ashamed to tell about it in public
  1104. zinid okay 👍
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