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moparisthebest
Wiktor, anyone else interested, code is up https://github.com/moparisthebest/jDnsProxy/blob/dox/dox.md
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moparisthebest
also I have it running at dns@moparisthebest.com/listener if anyone wants to query some DNS over XMPP
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Link Mauve
“20:04:36 flow> I never understood why we use numbers when humans are much better with letters”, Western* humans, just ask a random Chinese person to remember letters instead of numbers and you’ll have a bad time.
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Ge0rG
Link Mauve: not even if those letters are abbreviations of the subject matter name?
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Link Mauve
AIUI, even then.
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flow
Link Mauve, TIL. But is that an argument that we shouldn't use short names instead of numbers?
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Zash
But, we do have short names
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flow
that nobody uses
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flow
that makes the situation even more ironic, we have them, I hope they are supposed to be short and unique, and still we use additinally numbers
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Zash
But IIRC they get assigned at Draft or something
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wurstsalat
> wurstsalat: it is already? pep., I meant on the xmpp.org frontpage, with a banner?
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pep.
Ah you want the fancy banner :p
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pep.
If you come up with the CSS for it I assume somebody will accept it
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wurstsalat
pep., still no computer access for me until end of march, sorry. next time it will be a PR ;)
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jonas’
flow, the numbers can be uniquely searched for, the short names may be so short that they occur in other words
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jonas’
so using the numbers is much better for searchability
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jonas’
at least that’s my rationale for using them in the ML subject and in rooms
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flow
jonas’, XEP-SM?
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jonas’
then we can never have XEP-SMART
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flow
XEP-CSI, XEP-CARBONS, XEP-FMUC
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jonas’
and what about avatars
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jonas’
or bookmarks
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flow
I immeditaly will know what XEP-FMUC is about, can you tell me the FMUC number from the top of your head?
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jonas’
XEP-BOOKMARKS XEP-BOOKMARKS-DONE-RIGHT ...
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jonas’
no, since I never cared about FMUC
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flow
jonas’, right, but it doesn't make the situation worser
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jonas’
the others I use I typically know, but I’m a number person
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flow
also XEP-CAPS, and XEP-CAPS2 works pretty well for me
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jonas’
then you can’t search for the old caps only
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jonas’
you’ll always get both
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flow
I think I could live with that
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jonas’
not much more frustrating than having inaccurate search results and not being able to do anything about it
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flow
it would be even better if we could tag threads and messages of the ML with unique xep tags for searching, but that is a different discussion
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jonas’
I agree
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zinid
> Western* humans, just ask a random Chinese person to remember letters instead of numbers and you’ll have a bad time who cares, there is already a ton of language discrimination 🙂 It's even more sharp when your native alphabet is not latin
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zinid
this stringprep crap for example, not every language has a problem with character cases, and this shit is built into the protocol, permanently consuming resources at the servers
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Ge0rG
ZİNİD!
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Ge0rG
The obvious solution is to use XEP Emoji Shortnames.
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Ge0rG
I would like to propose a minor change to XEP<FacePalm><Male><Fitzpatrick-Modifier-3><ZeroWidthJoin><Regional-Indicator-Letter-Ф>
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Zash
User was banned for this crime against sanity
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Guus
+1
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dwd
FWIW, I think we often do refer to protocols by name, and not number. We refer to the documents by number for precision, but there's only a handful that are routinely referred to by number (198, for example). Most of the time we talk about MUC, or vCards, or whatever.
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Ge0rG
does "MUC" also include all the undocumented quirks that are not part of 0045? 😁
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MattJ
Ge0rG, fancy documenting those?
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Zash
What undocumented quirks are there? I can think of the vCard hack and MSN
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Ge0rG
MattJ: MSN is the most prominent example. I think *somebody* started a wiki page on it, but then it was widely ignored by the people who know the most about their respective implementations.
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Zash
Was that among the losses in the great server crash?✎ -
Zash
Was that page among the losses in the great server crash? ✏
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Ge0rG
Zash: no
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Ge0rG
At least I don't think so
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Zash
I think I started writing a sentence about the vcard hack but git ate it, probably when I looked at GC 1.0 removal
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Zash
Hah, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0089.html
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Zash
What was the conclusion of looking at an old XEP each week?
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dwd
Zash, Everyone thought that someone else should definitely do that?
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Zash
Let's talk about XEP-XXXX: Tragedy of the Commons
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dwd
Have we changed to roman numerals?
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pep.
What do people think about this: https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/issues/3462 ? poezio bug: "LMC replaces the whole stanza"
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Guus
pep. given that we're already in a situation where both approaches exist, an implementation note that warns to expect both methods might be good.
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Kev
Replacing the whole stanza isn't what 308 asks you to do.
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Kev
Just the payloads.
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Ge0rG
that's getting rather philosophical.
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Zash
Stanza of Theseus
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zinid
client developers problems
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lovetox
does poezio save stanzas to its local storage?
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Alex
If you are a XSF member and have not voted yet in our current voting period then please do so. Memberbot is online and waiting to accept your votes ;-) Thank You
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MattJ
Done, thanks :)
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Alex
(Y)
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Ge0rG
The deadline is 2019-03-12 19:00 UTC!
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Ge0rG
Alex: thanks for running all this process 👍
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jonas’
done, thanks!
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Seve
Alex, very appreciated :)
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Seve
New applicants :O
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Syndace
Yeah!
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pep.
lovetox, no it doesn't
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lovetox
then how does it "replace" a stanza
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pep.
What do you call local storage?
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lovetox
are you saying it keeps the received stanzas in some cache?
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pep.
yeah, there's a buffer of stanzas that get displayed or sth
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pep.
(I don't exactly know the details yet)
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pep.
LMC will go as many times as it's corrected in the logs in any case, I think
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pep.
But not displayed
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pep.
(but **poezio will not display all of them, unless you ask for it)
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lovetox
yes, but you wrote it replaces a stanza, but now from what you tell it does sound like it does put every message into storage
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pep.
By replacing the whole stanza we also lose the ability to see corrections _after_. You have to have that setting _before_ that happens
-
lovetox
so i dont see replacing going oon
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pep.
lovetox, there's hot/cold storage :p
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Ge0rG
what about warm storage?
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pep.
lovetox, when I say "replace" in that issue, I mean that the original stanza is getting replaced by the correction, in the buffer that will get displayed
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pep.
(I think that's how it works, Link Mauve/mathieui will know better)
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Ge0rG
not the stanza but the displayed text
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pep.
no, the stanza
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Ge0rG
(I'm pretty sure that LMC doesn't apply in the xml tab)
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pep.
Yeah that's a different tab..
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pep.
But we keep the stanza, with the associated ids/attributes etc., and that's actually what's causing the issue here, because we don't know about the original ID anymore
-
pep.
So we expect other implementations to refer to the one-to-last id
-
Ge0rG
Oh, I should have read the issue first.
-
pep.
:)
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lovetox
pep. but every impl refers to the last message
-
lovetox
not to the first
-
lovetox
if i remember correctly
-
pep.
lovetox, not every no
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pep.
converse doesn't
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pep.
And the XEP is not explicit about it
-
lovetox
then you have no base for action
-
lovetox
so why change anything
-
pep.
everything?
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lovetox
hm no i said anything :D
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pep.
Ge0rG, I like your time machine
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pep.
ah, anything.
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Ge0rG
tl;dr: nobody cares.
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pep.
lovetox, well, because some LMC messages won't appear as LMC
-
pep.
And it's still valid
-
lovetox
you mean you impl displaying both ways?
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Ge0rG
pep.: tell converse that it's called LMC and not FMC for a reason.
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pep.
Ge0rG, we could do that by being explicit in the XEP yes
-
pep.
Or we could fix poezio to support all cases
-
Ge0rG
lovetox: yaxim only stores _one_ message in the DB (yeah, I know, I know). So it can only follow a linear LMC trace and not a tree.
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lovetox
Ge0rG, Gajim stores all messages but still corrects the last
-
Ge0rG
technically, it should suffice to store two IDs, the _first_ ID and the _last_ ID for correction purposes.
-
Ge0rG
but then you need to index on both.
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pep.
lovetox, yeah but at least you know the id converse is referring to. poezio doesn't
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lovetox
i know the id but i still dont show the correction
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pep.
heh, why?
-
lovetox
because i only allow the last message to be corrected
-
Ge0rG
pep.: I suggest you write a PR outlining that always the lastest message is to be referenced.
-
pep.
hmm
-
lovetox
its called last message correction :D
-
pep.
lovetox, It's not called "last <message> correction" though
-
lovetox
i dont see the difference
-
lovetox
ah i get it
-
lovetox
you mean the user decides what counts as a message
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Zash
XEP-XXXX: Message Correction Like Last Message Correction, but any recent message, within reason.
-
Zash
There I fixed it
-
Ge0rG
lovetox: I also have a time machine deployment for you: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-June/035143.html ;)
-
pep.
Ge0rG, I want access to your time machine
-
lovetox
either way this convers stuff is a good clue
-
Zash
<feature var="any-message-correction"/>
-
lovetox
because i have a bug report with not working LMC
-
lovetox
and now i think i know why
-
Ge0rG
pep.: it's called mutt <esc>/~S
-
pep.
hehe
-
Ge0rG
lovetox: to quote from my past self: > I think there is a compelling reason to allow correcting more than just the last message - imagine typing multiple lines in a row, and only then reading what you sent, to realize a typo / incorrectness.
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lovetox
im not against it within reason
-
pep.
Mattermost allows Any of My Messages Correction, unless you're an admin and then it's YMC
-
lovetox
Any makes not much sense to me, we are chatting here, this is not a document
-
pep.
Tell that to users with strong OCDs
-
lovetox
also its too much impl work
-
Ge0rG
lovetox: yaxim defines "within reason" as "the last 10 stored messages from that user"
-
lovetox
because when people can alter your history next thing your users want it to be made aware of it
-
pep.
lovetox, I agree
-
Ge0rG
as corrections are overwriting the original message, you can do an unlimited number of corrections of the same msg.
- MattJ implemented an animated progress bar in a bot already ;)
-
pep.
or as /marquee
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: showcase!
-
MattJ
Here? In this MUC?? ;)
-
Zash
In this part of XMPP?
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: dunno. Record a screencap maybe?
-
MattJ
Alas, it's a private project, and I don't intend to make this public because someone worse than me will use it somewhere
- Ge0rG imagines poezio /upload sending the upload progress of large files
-
Zash
Ge0rG: Don't give them ideas!
-
Ge0rG
[=====> ] 23.42KB/s ETA: tomorrow
-
Zash
Not when /marquee is a thing already
-
Ge0rG
is there a way to determine the width of the recipient's terminal over XMPP?
-
Zash
Put it in disco#info
-
pep.
XEP-XXXX: RTW
-
Zash
<winch columns="80" lines="24"/>
-
pep.
Ge0rG, do you send something different for each participant?
-
pep.
Or is that a server thing?
-
Ge0rG
pep.: yes!
-
pep.
<width columns="273" lines="74"/>
-
Zash
SIGWINCH
-
Zash
in PEP
-
Ge0rG
https://op-co.de/tmp/progress.mp4
-
Ge0rG
I did it.
-
Ge0rG
Now let's make 2D animated art.
-
dwd
I don't know if I'm impressed, or disappointed.
-
Ge0rG
can't you be both, along different aspects of it?
-
MattJ
Star Wars over XMPP
-
Ge0rG
(now somebody must make the stupid name joke)
-
MattJ
Wow, it's still up
-
Maranda
Pft Star Wars