XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2019-05-08


  1. pdurbin has joined
  2. lskdjf has left
  3. pdurbin has left
  4. peter has left
  5. llap has left
  6. lorddavidiii has left
  7. lorddavidiii has joined
  8. lorddavidiii has left
  9. lorddavidiii has joined
  10. pdurbin has joined
  11. vanitasvitae has left
  12. peter has joined
  13. vanitasvitae has joined
  14. pdurbin has left
  15. pdurbin has joined
  16. peter has left
  17. pdurbin has left
  18. pdurbin has joined
  19. pdurbin has left
  20. mr.fister has left
  21. mr.fister has joined
  22. pdurbin has joined
  23. pdurbin has left
  24. arc has left
  25. arc has joined
  26. pdurbin has joined
  27. pdurbin has left
  28. david has left
  29. david has joined
  30. pdurbin has joined
  31. ThibG has left
  32. peter has joined
  33. pdurbin has left
  34. pdurbin has joined
  35. larma has joined
  36. lskdjf has joined
  37. pdurbin has left
  38. pdurbin has joined
  39. peter has left
  40. pdurbin has left
  41. pdurbin has joined
  42. arc has left
  43. arc has joined
  44. ThibG has joined
  45. pdurbin has left
  46. pdurbin has joined
  47. lskdjf has left
  48. lskdjf has joined
  49. lumi has left
  50. david has left
  51. lskdjf has left
  52. larma has left
  53. neshtaxmpp has left
  54. neshtaxmpp has joined
  55. Nekit has joined
  56. david has joined
  57. j.r has joined
  58. Tobias has left
  59. Tobias has joined
  60. wurstsalat has joined
  61. jubalh has joined
  62. alacer has left
  63. alacer has joined
  64. jubalh has left
  65. alacer has left
  66. alacer has joined
  67. lnj has joined
  68. andy has joined
  69. krauq has left
  70. krauq has joined
  71. andy has left
  72. andy has joined
  73. mabihir has joined
  74. mabihir has left
  75. mikaela has joined
  76. jubalh has joined
  77. jabberjocke has left
  78. rtq3 has joined
  79. jubalh has left
  80. Steve Kille has left
  81. waqas has left
  82. Steve Kille has joined
  83. jabberjocke has joined
  84. debxwoody has joined
  85. debxwoody has left
  86. debxwoody has joined
  87. goffi has joined
  88. karoshi has joined
  89. blabla has left
  90. blabla has joined
  91. debxwoody has left
  92. andy has left
  93. andy has joined
  94. alacer has left
  95. alacer has joined
  96. sezuan has joined
  97. rtq3 has left
  98. rtq3 has joined
  99. 404.city has joined
  100. Dele Olajide has joined
  101. jubalh has joined
  102. COM8 has joined
  103. COM8 has left
  104. Nekit has left
  105. Nekit has joined
  106. andy has left
  107. andy has joined
  108. jubalh has left
  109. pdurbin has left
  110. pdurbin has joined
  111. blabla has left
  112. blabla has joined
  113. kokonoe has left
  114. pdurbin has left
  115. blabla has left
  116. blabla has joined
  117. COM8 has joined
  118. COM8 has left
  119. pdurbin has joined
  120. debacle has joined
  121. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  122. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  123. COM8 has joined
  124. COM8 has left
  125. jabberjocke has left
  126. kokonoe has joined
  127. sezuan has left
  128. sezuan has joined
  129. andy has left
  130. andy has joined
  131. andy has left
  132. andy has joined
  133. 404.city has left
  134. 404.city has joined
  135. rtq3 has left
  136. ThibG has left
  137. rtq3 has joined
  138. ThibG has joined
  139. andy has left
  140. andy has joined
  141. andy has left
  142. andy has joined
  143. rtq3 has left
  144. alacer has left
  145. APach has left
  146. alacer has joined
  147. kokonoe has left
  148. rtq3 has joined
  149. kokonoe has joined
  150. pdurbin has left
  151. APach has joined
  152. lnj has left
  153. lnj has joined
  154. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  155. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  156. lumi has joined
  157. pdurbin has joined
  158. COM8 has joined
  159. COM8 has left
  160. COM8 has joined
  161. COM8 has left
  162. pdurbin has left
  163. ThibG has left
  164. ThibG has joined
  165. pdurbin has joined
  166. pdurbin has left
  167. lumi has left
  168. krauq has left
  169. krauq has joined
  170. pdurbin has joined
  171. jubalh has joined
  172. pdurbin has left
  173. pdurbin has joined
  174. jubalh has left
  175. blabla has left
  176. blabla has joined
  177. pdurbin has left
  178. igoose has left
  179. igoose has joined
  180. larma has joined
  181. pdurbin has joined
  182. rtq3 has left
  183. pdurbin has left
  184. pdurbin has joined
  185. rtq3 has joined
  186. APach has left
  187. eevvoor has joined
  188. pdurbin has left
  189. pdurbin has joined
  190. ThibG has left
  191. ThibG has joined
  192. pdurbin has left
  193. Nekit has left
  194. Nekit has joined
  195. pdurbin has joined
  196. intosi has joined
  197. igoose has left
  198. igoose has joined
  199. alacer has left
  200. alacer has joined
  201. ThibG has left
  202. ThibG has joined
  203. COM8 has joined
  204. APach has joined
  205. Arc has left
  206. user222 has joined
  207. user222 hello is this doxbin
  208. Zash No, this is the XMPP Standards Foundation
  209. COM8 has left
  210. user222 has left
  211. Nekit has left
  212. Nekit has joined
  213. Nekit has left
  214. Nekit has joined
  215. pdurbin has left
  216. jjrh has left
  217. pdurbin has joined
  218. help pls has joined
  219. help pls can i talk with a owner/staff alone?
  220. vanitasvitae help pls: the owner of what?
  221. help pls so basically i got doxed and they posted it on a website. they told me tto contact xmpp to get it deleted
  222. peter has joined
  223. Zash This is not the place for that.
  224. help pls where do i go then
  225. jonas’ help pls, did they give you an address?
  226. vanitasvitae Xmpp is a protocol
  227. Zash This is where we discuss the protocol itself.
  228. vanitasvitae They probably meant to contact them *via* xmpp
  229. help pls HOW DO I INSTALL THAT I DONNT HAVE A BRAINN
  230. vanitasvitae Like in "via mail"
  231. help pls yh
  232. help pls they told me that but idk how can someone call me and help
  233. andy has left
  234. peter has left
  235. help pls ok nice help
  236. vanitasvitae You havent really specified, how we can help you :D
  237. help pls I GOT DOXED AND I WANT THEM TO DELETE IT BUT THEY WONT. they told me to contact kt@neko.im
  238. help pls he said "XMPP is kt@neko.im."
  239. flow help pls, that is like saying "my cell number is 555-1234"
  240. help pls nice help
  241. jonas’ help pls, i.e. contact kt@neko.im
  242. help pls HOW DO I CONTACT THEM
  243. jonas’ how did you join this room?
  244. Zash I'm guessing the web chat
  245. help pls they told me to go on this site
  246. help pls thats all
  247. jonas’ ah, web chat makes sense
  248. Zash Well you would need to get an actual account somewhere.
  249. jonas’ help pls, XMPP is like E-Mail for chat. This is a room to discuss how to develop XMPP. That means, we are in no way affiliated with neko.im or your doxxer.
  250. jonas’ To communicate with another user using XMPP, you need an account.
  251. waqas has joined
  252. help pls HOW DO i make an acc
  253. help pls u all confusing why this even a thing
  254. jonas’ help pls, for example here: https://magicbroccoli.de/register/
  255. help pls fuck doxbin
  256. Zash Kinda sounds like something to talk to the police about tho
  257. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  258. jonas’ that’s true
  259. pdurbin has left
  260. help pls imma get that site closed
  261. help pls how do i report websites
  262. help pls ?
  263. david has left
  264. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  265. jonas’ help pls, your local police department
  266. jonas’ will be able to help you
  267. pdurbin has joined
  268. help pls has left
  269. alacer has left
  270. pdurbin has left
  271. david has joined
  272. alacer has joined
  273. APach has left
  274. jjrh has joined
  275. jjrh has left
  276. jjrh has joined
  277. jjrh has left
  278. jjrh has joined
  279. pdurbin has joined
  280. jjrh has left
  281. lskdjf has joined
  282. jjrh has joined
  283. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  284. jjrh has left
  285. jjrh has joined
  286. pdurbin has left
  287. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  288. pdurbin has joined
  289. lskdjf has left
  290. lskdjf has joined
  291. 404.city Support has joined
  292. pdurbin has left
  293. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  294. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  295. pdurbin has joined
  296. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  297. debacle has left
  298. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  299. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  300. pdurbin has left
  301. waqas has left
  302. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  303. eevvoor has left
  304. j.r has left
  305. jubalh has joined
  306. jubalh has left
  307. jubalh has joined
  308. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  309. pdurbin has joined
  310. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  311. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  312. pdurbin has left
  313. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  314. lovetox has joined
  315. sezuan has left
  316. jubalh has left
  317. intosi has left
  318. intosi has joined
  319. APach has joined
  320. pdurbin has joined
  321. COM8 has joined
  322. pdurbin has left
  323. APach has left
  324. COM8 has left
  325. lskdjf has left
  326. Steve Kille has left
  327. andrey.g has left
  328. j.r has joined
  329. APach has joined
  330. eevvoor has joined
  331. Steve Kille has joined
  332. Nekit has left
  333. Nekit has joined
  334. peter has joined
  335. pdurbin has joined
  336. intosi has left
  337. lskdjf has joined
  338. alacer has left
  339. andrey.g has joined
  340. pdurbin has left
  341. neshtaxmpp has left
  342. neshtaxmpp has joined
  343. peter has left
  344. pdurbin has joined
  345. debacle has joined
  346. APach has left
  347. peter has joined
  348. peter has left
  349. eevvoor has left
  350. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  351. peter has joined
  352. peter has left
  353. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  354. peter has joined
  355. peter has left
  356. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  357. pdurbin has left
  358. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  359. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  360. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  361. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  362. APach has joined
  363. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  364. Wojtek has joined
  365. Wojtek has left
  366. pdurbin has joined
  367. mimi89999 has left
  368. lskdjf has left
  369. COM8 has joined
  370. mimi89999 has joined
  371. COM8 has left
  372. lskdjf has joined
  373. pdurbin has left
  374. pdurbin has joined
  375. moparisthebest jonas’: after having conquered xmpp in sed, what about xmpp in css? https://github.com/kkuchta/css-only-chat
  376. jonas’ nah
  377. david has left
  378. Ge0rG xmpp in css with a server-side awk module
  379. david has joined
  380. jonas’ it’s not like I hadn’t written a simple HTTP servlet in sed yet ;)
  381. moparisthebest Sed could be the backend
  382. moparisthebest Could be the future of web development
  383. Zash Nah, implement a Lua interpreter in sed, then run Prosody on it with a mod_c2s_css
  384. moparisthebest Css frontend, sed backend
  385. moparisthebest Somehow still better than JavaScript
  386. Alex has left
  387. debacle has left
  388. lumi has joined
  389. pdurbin has left
  390. pdurbin has joined
  391. lumi has left
  392. lumi has joined
  393. lskdjf has left
  394. Alex has joined
  395. lskdjf has joined
  396. waqas has joined
  397. waqas has left
  398. waqas has joined
  399. krauq has left
  400. krauq has joined
  401. igoose has left
  402. igoose has joined
  403. pdurbin has left
  404. pdurbin has joined
  405. rtq3 has left
  406. rtq3 has joined
  407. jabberjocke has joined
  408. mr.fister has left
  409. david has left
  410. david has joined
  411. llap has joined
  412. lnj has left
  413. lnj has joined
  414. llap has left
  415. llap has joined
  416. rtq3 has left
  417. rtq3 has joined
  418. lskdjf has left
  419. larma has left
  420. Arc has joined
  421. llap has left
  422. llap has joined
  423. Douglas Terabyte has left
  424. j.r has left
  425. fippo ge0rg: have you (with council hat and speaking german) heard anything about https://twitter.com/katarinabarley/status/1126122186840989696 ? cc tobias
  426. pdurbin has left
  427. rtq3 has left
  428. pdurbin has joined
  429. mikaela Hi, this would probably be the place to ask where should I open an issue proposing something similar to Mastodon's rel=me verification for confirming that users on XMPP are who they claim to be? https://indieweb.org/rel-me#Mastodon (However that is probably more of an issue at Matrix, but I think XMPP already implements profiles with URL fields that it would depend on)
  430. rtq3 has joined
  431. Zash Profiles can have URLs, yes.
  432. mikaela Is anything checking if those URLs link back to XMPP or would proposing doing that be possible somewhere?
  433. Zash I don't know if anything uses them for anything other than display in an user profile screen
  434. j.r has joined
  435. COM8 has joined
  436. j.r has left
  437. COM8 has left
  438. larma has joined
  439. mikaela has left
  440. COM8 has joined
  441. mikaela has joined
  442. COM8 has left
  443. rion has left
  444. pdurbin has left
  445. pdurbin has joined
  446. Wojtek has joined
  447. Wojtek has left
  448. rion has joined
  449. rion has left
  450. rion has joined
  451. david has left
  452. jubalh has joined
  453. Ge0rG fippo: I'm not aware of any official contact to us. I'm sure by "messenger services" she means the proprietary silos with billions of users, not the federated zombie of a protocol that we maintain...
  454. COM8 has joined
  455. COM8 has left
  456. jubalh has left
  457. lskdjf has joined
  458. david has joined
  459. mikaela has left
  460. mikaela has joined
  461. arc has left
  462. arc has joined
  463. fippo ge0rg: "dear facebook, please advise how to break your hold on the messenger space"? :-)
  464. Ge0rG It might be a good idea to have Board nominate a German speaking XSF representative to contact the ministry. OTOH there is the Freie Messenger initiative that tries to create such contact with little effect so far
  465. Ge0rG fippo: that's probably how it's going to end up
  466. Arc has left
  467. Ge0rG > It might be a good idea to have Board nominate a German speaking XSF representative to contact the ministry. OTOH there is the Freie Messenger initiative that tries to create such contact with little effect so far Guus, MattJ, ralphm?
  468. Guus Ge0rG: I need more context, but am otherwise engaged now. Can you email?
  469. eevvoor has joined
  470. Guus Is this what Daniel responded to, via twitter?
  471. fippo guus: yes
  472. pdurbin has left
  473. ralphm As a EU citizen, I'm sure that according to EU regulations, I'm allowed to address the Ministry in my native language.
  474. waqas has left
  475. ralphm Or English.
  476. Zash That sounds like a thing the EU would mandate
  477. jonas’ ralphm, a german ministry?
  478. fippo still looking for more context on the original quote. like... a video
  479. mikaela > As a EU citizen, I'm sure that according to EU regulations, I'm allowed to address the Ministry in my native language. If your native language is an official EU language, I think yes
  480. ralphm mikaela: I'm Dutch
  481. Ge0rG https://fragdenstaat.de/anfrage/herstellung-von-interoperabilitat-zwischen-messenger-diensten-und-der-kontakt-zu-diesen/
  482. fippo ge0rg: brilliant :-)
  483. ralphm Ge0rG: Also, I'd ok for a native German speaker to list me as contact on behalf of the XMPP Standards Foundation as its Chair.
  484. Ge0rG Omr2019 seems to be a festival in Hamburg that happened yesterday and today.
  485. ralphm And finally, we have Alex.
  486. ralphm Who is our Secretary.
  487. Ge0rG ralphm: it might be much faster and less bureaucratic to talk in German to a German ministry. Just saying.
  488. ralphm If you'd just stop dubbing foreign media, we'd be in a much better place.
  489. Ge0rG ralphm: I'm sure that it's possible to talk to Ms. Barley regarding a EU regulation in that context, but her being a German electee, and with the upcoming election, I don't know how much she'd listen to foreign citizens.
  490. Zash The EU parliment election?
  491. Ge0rG https://omr.com/festival2019/en/speaker-artists/#katarina-barley
  492. Ge0rG Zash: yeah, that one
  493. goffi has left
  494. Zash Can't you vote for any candidate in the entire EU?
  495. ralphm No
  496. Zash Must have misunderstood something then.
  497. ralphm But yeah, not listening to people outside of your own country seems to be very common in the EU.
  498. jonas’ that’s progress over "(not) listening and waging war on them" at least
  499. ralphm Zash: people vote for national candidates to represent them in the EU parlement.
  500. ralphm jonas’: meh
  501. Ge0rG ralphm: Barley is also prominent for not listening to German population, to the contact that her party made with the other governing party, and to the members of her own party.
  502. Ge0rG *contact
  503. Ge0rG *contract
  504. igoose has left
  505. igoose has joined
  506. arc has left
  507. igoose has left
  508. arc has joined
  509. igoose has joined
  510. Ge0rG Anyway, I happen to have that little status symbol called Ph.D, which is a significant factor of respect for old school German politicians, I can be sufficiently eloquent in writing, I don't have a desire to push my private pet projects, and I volunteer to represent the XSF
  511. jonas’ ralphm, I find Ge0rGs suggestion all over all rather sensible. Communicating in german with a german ministry might be the way to go
  512. Ge0rG Guus [22:10]: > Ge0rG: I need more context, but am otherwise engaged now. Can you email? I'm not sure I can manage that in advance to tomorrow's board meeting
  513. Arc has joined
  514. 404.city has left
  515. 404.city Support has left
  516. ralphm Well, I'm not going to be able to be in the meeting tomorrow, because I'm flying, but if you sent a message to board we can vote on list
  517. Ge0rG Isn't it sufficient to have it on trello?
  518. Ge0rG ralphm [22:33]: > if you sent a message to board That awakes sad memories about badly configured mailing lists.
  519. ralphm It would be nice to have a bit more context then a oneline summary with links to german things
  520. ralphm Ge0rG: that has been resolved, too
  521. pdurbin has joined
  522. ralphm People now watch the moderation queue
  523. Ge0rG Of board@?
  524. Ge0rG I'll try to manage a mail tomorrow morning, thanks.
  525. ralphm Thanks!
  526. ralphm And, as I wrote on Twitter, I'm not sure if regulation to enforce interop will yield a desirable outcome.
  527. ralphm I mean sure, it would be great to have all of them connected, preferably using XMPP, but I'm not convinced it would resolve the silo issue much.
  528. Ge0rG Maybe not banning users for using an unofficial client would be a good start already.
  529. ralphm That has nothing to do with interop between services
  530. lskdjf has left
  531. lskdjf has joined
  532. Ge0rG Indirectly.
  533. ralphm In fact, if you'd use federation for getting there, it would mean they'd have to open up all the features of their app to be able to be used in a federated setup, which I think is not attainable by legislation.
  534. ralphm You couldn't make Snapchat, for example.
  535. ralphm The only reason it kinda works, is because they have control over the client.
  536. COM8 has joined
  537. jubalh has joined
  538. ralphm Once you allow 3rd party clients, or federation, you can no longer ensure stuff is deleted.
  539. COM8 has left
  540. lumi has left
  541. ralphm There are many cases like this. E.g. deleting messages you sent to a contact in Whatsapp works by asking the receiver to delete.
  542. llap has left
  543. intosi has joined
  544. pdurbin has left
  545. Ge0rG ralphm: and don't even start thinking of E2EE
  546. ralphm So then the question becomes: what are you *actually* asking for.
  547. pdurbin has joined
  548. ralphm I'm not interested in pyrrhic victories.
  549. Ge0rG ralphm: message deletion is probably the only relevant case, and that's easily circumvented by screenshotting
  550. jubalh has left
  551. jubalh has joined
  552. ralphm I'm not saying those features are waterproof.
  553. ralphm There's a difference between screenshotting and being able to create a legitimate client or federated service that doesn't adhere to deletion instructions.
  554. ralphm As soon as you allow federation, laying down restrictions or terms of use is almost impossible.
  555. ralphm 3rd party clients are slightly easier to litigate, maybe
  556. Zash It would be doable to restrict such features to approved local clients.
  557. Ge0rG ralphm: is your point that somebody must define a useful subset of functionality to implement everywhere, or is it that every provider will create arguments why their system must be exempted from federation?
  558. ralphm Zash: what does that mean for Snapchat?
  559. Zash ralphm: Self-destructing messages not leaving their own service.
  560. ralphm Zash: but the whole point of Snapchat is self-destructing messages.
  561. ralphm If the only way to use that service is by being local, it is not interoperable.
  562. Zash That's the trade-off, yes.
  563. ralphm And would then not comply with legal requirements to interoperate, if that's mandated.
  564. eevvoor has left
  565. jubalh has left
  566. ralphm So, you have to be really careful in figuring out what you ask for.
  567. jubalh has joined
  568. Douglas Terabyte has joined
  569. ralphm Ge0rG: I'm afraid that it might only interoperate on paper, and not in reality.
  570. Ge0rG ralphm: this is very much related to my second point
  571. ralphm Ge0rG: right. The problem is that problems like this will be presented as attempts to frustrate innovation, and that usually ends in paper tigers.
  572. pdurbin has left
  573. dwd has left
  574. dwd has joined
  575. pdurbin has joined
  576. lnj has left
  577. dwd has left
  578. pdurbin has left
  579. jjrh has left
  580. jjrh has joined
  581. wurstsalat has left
  582. pdurbin has joined
  583. Dele Olajide has left
  584. lumi has joined
  585. jubalh has left
  586. pdurbin has left
  587. lskdjf has left
  588. lskdjf has joined
  589. lovetox has left
  590. pdurbin has joined
  591. pdurbin has left
  592. pdurbin has joined
  593. mr.fister has joined
  594. pdurbin has left
  595. pdurbin has joined
  596. dwd has joined
  597. larma has left
  598. larma has joined
  599. lskdjf has left
  600. lskdjf has joined
  601. mikaela has left
  602. debacle has joined
  603. pdurbin has left
  604. pdurbin has joined
  605. waqas has joined
  606. larma has left
  607. lskdjf has left
  608. larma has joined
  609. lskdjf has joined
  610. david has left
  611. david has joined
  612. lumi has left
  613. pdurbin has left
  614. igoose has left
  615. igoose has joined
  616. pdurbin has joined
  617. Nekit has left
  618. ThibG has left
  619. dwd has left
  620. dwd has joined
  621. karoshi has left
  622. dwd has left
  623. waqas has left
  624. david has left
  625. david has joined
  626. Wojtek has joined
  627. Wojtek has left
  628. pdurbin has left
  629. pdurbin has joined
  630. lskdjf has left
  631. lskdjf has joined
  632. dwd has joined
  633. waqas has joined
  634. waqas has left
  635. waqas has joined
  636. waqas has left
  637. dwd has left
  638. dwd has joined
  639. rtq3 has left
  640. igoose has left
  641. rtq3 has joined
  642. igoose has joined
  643. peter has joined
  644. UsL has left
  645. UsL has joined
  646. rtq3 has left
  647. dwd has left
  648. dwd has joined
  649. peter has left
  650. dwd has left
  651. dwd has joined
  652. peter has joined
  653. pdurbin has left
  654. dwd has left