XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2019-06-29


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  101. jonas’ can someone with URI knowledge tell me whether: `xmpp://xmpp-public.sotecware.net:5222/sotecware.net` would be an accurate way to write "Connect to sotecware.net using xmpp-public.sotecware.net on port 5222, skipping SRV record resolution`?
  102. jonas’ can someone with URI knowledge tell me whether: `xmpp://xmpp-public.sotecware.net:5222/sotecware.net` would be an accurate way to write "Connect to sotecware.net using xmpp-public.sotecware.net on port 5222, skipping SRV record resolution"?
  103. jonas’ it does not need to be generally understood that it means that, just whether the basic URI semantics are sane
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  150. moparisthebest jonas’: you don't need the domain if you have a jid to get it from
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  152. jonas’ moparisthebest, depends on the use-case
  153. moparisthebest You probably need a jid regardless don't you?
  154. jonas’ I want this for monitoring purposes, so I might want to monitor the up-ness and certificates and stuff of all possible server endpoints for a given domain
  155. jonas’ yes, the jid is behind the last ``/``
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  157. jonas’ it’s just a domain, but still a JID :)
  158. jonas’ (in the specific case I’m thinking about, the client would never even authenticate, so there’s no need for a valid localpart)
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  160. jonas’ I’m trying to coerce this into a single URI/URL because I only have a single string to pass to stuff.
  161. Zash I have a thing that accepts domain@host:port (not an URI/URL)
  162. moparisthebest Ah ok, I made up my own similarish url syntax for this and ralphm yelled at me lol https://github.com/moparisthebest/jDnsProxy/blob/master/xmpp-dox/jdnsproxy.xmpp.resolver.properties#L27
  163. moparisthebest I also needed a single string
  164. ralphm 🤣
  165. jonas’ so maybe ralphm can now also yell at me?
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  173. ralphm Yelling As A Service?
  174. waqas Yaas
  175. Zash Real-Time Instant Yelling Service
  176. ralphm In general, yes, if it looks like a URI, just make it one. Especially if you're using existing URI schemes.
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  178. ralphm Also, I generally don't like it when people use new schemes in production without having IANA registering it first.
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  185. ralphm jonas’: but specifically, no, you can't bypass SRV like that. It is explicitly forbidden: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5122#section-5.2
  186. waqas ralphm: That's pretty widespread these days, particularly on mobile platforms where apps register their own URL schemes. Almost all modern OS vendors allow apps to define these.
  187. ralphm waqas: doesn't mean I have to like it
  188. ralphm Or that it is a good idea
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  191. waqas I have mixed feelings about it. I'm not necessarily fully sold on IANA registry being a registry of all allowed schemes.
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  194. waqas (the same way I'm not sold on all possible XMPP protocol extensions requiring going through the XSF XEP process, the X for extensibility without relying on central authority is important)
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  197. ralphm Well, either it is a URI, which requires registration with IANA, or it is a fake.
  198. waqas Same for XEPs?
  199. ralphm Similarly, without a XEP, you cannot use urn:xmpp as a prefix
  200. waqas I'm comfortable with urn:xmpp, and I'd be comfortable with an app using "http:" to always mean the HTTP protocol.
  201. waqas But all URL schemes requiring registration is like requiring all namespaces even without the urn:xmpp prefix requiring the same
  202. ralphm If you don't use the XSF, you must use your own namespace, e.g. one with a http scheme with an auth part that points to your own domain. Or your own registered URN prefix.
  203. waqas It's the registration bit that I'm rejecting
  204. ralphm E.g. at Mediamatic, we had namespaces starting with http://mediamatic.nl/ns
  205. Zash `xmlns="xmpp:prosody.im/stuff"` :D
  206. ralphm waqas: why? URI/URL/URN as concepts are defined by the IETF, the set the rules.
  207. Zash Isn't there a DNS tree you can use somewhere? `urn:dns:example.com:whatever` ?
  208. waqas Is there a statement from the IETF classifying unregistered as fake?
  209. ralphm I haven't considered using xmpp: as a prefix for namespaces. I suppose you can, without auth part like that.
  210. Zash ralphm: Should be equivalent to http:// URLs as namespaces as far as anything is concerned, right?
  211. ralphm Indeed
  212. ralphm But without auth part (//) because xmpp URIs have specific syntax.
  213. Zash Tho the original topic was overlap between URLs and configuration syntax.
  214. Zash You could spare your sanity and imagine that they're not really UR[LI]s
  215. ralphm I think, waqas, you should read RFC 3986 and BCP 35.
  216. ralphm Zash: indeed
  217. ralphm E.g. by not using an explicit scheme
  218. Zash Is there something like vendor prefixes for schemes?
  219. ralphm Yes
  220. Zash As in, foocorp-thing://magic/syntax
  221. ralphm See BCP 35, section 3.8.
  222. ralphm Basically reversed domain
  223. ralphm Like org.example:
  224. Zash `com.foocorp.thing://blah` ?
  225. ralphm Also don't use // if it doesn't make sense
  226. Zash I distinctly remember that some platform required it. iOS maybe?
  227. Zash Leading to weird horrors like `xmpp:///stuff`
  228. waqas section 6 of BCP 35 is relevant
  229. ralphm That platform is wrong
  230. waqas For the most part, platform vendors and app authors have shown little to interest in BCP 35 though :)
  231. ralphm Zash: but I guess Apple has more issues like that, e.g. the recent openid connect thing.
  232. ralphm waqas: that doesn't mean you shouldn't
  233. waqas I mildly equate this to the bazaar ignoring the cathedral except for a few popular occasions :)
  234. ralphm I hold some pride in doing it properly.
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  236. waqas "properly" is up for debate
  237. ralphm It is not, though. If you can diverge from standards on a whim, why have them?
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  239. Zash Anarchy! Chaos! Cats and dogs living together!
  240. waqas It would be ridiculous to follow all standards. Much like how we don't actually want clients to follow *all* the XEPs.
  241. ralphm There's a reason why we made xmpp extensible, so you can choose to do something else without violating specifications.
  242. waqas Indeed, and URI schemes are similarly extensible :)
  243. ralphm Yes, when folding its standards.
  244. ralphm Of course many people ignore standards
  245. ralphm (following)
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  247. Zash waqas: > (the same way I'm not sold on all possible XMPP protocol extensions requiring going through the XSF XEP process Where did you get this from?
  248. ralphm More than sometimes, not following a standard means pain later.
  249. waqas I think this is just fundamental disagreement, I disagree with following all possible standards being a requirement. I'm sure in any large pool of standards, I'd consider a significant portion to be inappropriate to implement.
  250. ralphm You generally don't have to implement all standards?
  251. waqas No, I do not
  252. Zash ralphm: "Pain for someone else" ?
  253. ralphm If you just follow XMPP Core, you can call yourself an XMPP application.
  254. ralphm If you want to use jabber:iq:roster, please follow what's in XMPP IM, though.
  255. waqas (technically you can call yourself that even when not following Core fully, which is true for most XMPP software, but I digress)
  256. ralphm You can, but you would not be truthful.
  257. waqas ralphm: I agree with that! Similar to how I agree followers of HTTP should follow the HTTP specs for the most part!
  258. waqas The world is a lie then. Point out any large code base implementing any large spec and I can probably show you it's a lie.
  259. waqas But anyway, this is going way offtrack :)
  260. waqas I'm cool with central registration being a MAY or SHOULD, but am fundamentally opposed to MUST, particularly for toy, experimental or private use cases, but in general too.
  261. waqas A world where MUST was e.g., a legal requirement would be a worst world, IMHO
  262. Zash There are usually recommendations for private namespaces and such
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  264. waqas And people SHOULD follow those when sane :)
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  267. ralphm I think the text in the specs I linked are to be interpreted mostly as a strong SHOULD, but things will break if you have naming conflicts.
  268. waqas Sure, and in various situations that can be an acceptable tradeoff
  269. waqas Particularly in situations where anonymity is a requirement. Registration with authority generally translates into breaking anonymity.
  270. ralphm Except when it doesn't when later your internal thing became part of a public API and now somebody, usually you, is crying.
  271. waqas I imagine that's pretty rare. Most things end up registering when they become big, often turning into de facto standards, and not when they are initially created.
  272. waqas I can't recall if this was true for xmpp: too. Did it see usage before it was registered or after?
  273. ralphm I don't directly see how anonymity is a factor in choosing a URI scheme, especially if there's a defined way to do private extensions.
  274. ralphm No, xmpp didn't exist as such before interacting with IETF.
  275. Zash `jabber:` then?
  276. ralphm We had to grandfather a bunch of things, and the jabber prefix was indeed wrong.
  277. Zash I mean, was there ever a `jabber` URI scheme?
  278. ralphm We first changed that to http URIs at jabber.org, eg pubsub, then went on to URNs.
  279. waqas I'm curious if all the XMPP proprietary competitors have their protocols registered :)
  280. waqas They all have at least one each, that their mobile apps register
  281. ralphm You *don't* have to register your proprietary extensions.
  282. ralphm However, those can't use the urn:xmpp prefix compliantly.
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  284. waqas Yep, and my point for URI schemes is that in practice anything not registered via IANA has been fair game for private use. With rare exceptions, the industry as a whole treats things that way.
  285. Zash Well, they get to enjoy their time boms then.
  286. waqas There are easily more than a single order of magnitude schemes out there in use vs what's in the IANA registry
  287. Zash Oh, `jabber` is registered? https://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/perm/jabber
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  289. ralphm Yes retroactively
  290. ralphm And with all known uses from XEPs and RFCs
  291. ralphm Only
  292. Zash That's good.
  293. ralphm As I said: grandfathered
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  358. edhelas https://twitter.com/matrixdotorg/status/1144918306211684352
  359. edhelas I think we should definitly do some benchmarks between our XMPP servers and Matrix servers on similar features
  360. Zash Which "we"?
  361. pep. The royal "we"
  362. edhelas Zash you and me
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  364. Zash Lies, damned lies, statistics, benchmarks.
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