XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2019-07-25


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  119. nyco and... time?
  120. Guus waves
  121. UsL has left
  122. nyco fresh waves? we beat records in temperature in Paris
  123. nyco I'm in a Burger King... :'(
  124. pep. #itsnotjustparis !
  125. Guus same here 🙂
  126. Guus well, I'm not in a Burger King.
  127. Zash Something something makes you wish for nuclear winter.
  128. nyco at least I gotta milkshake
  129. nyco maybe not nuclear winter, but something in between, like planting trees, reduce waste...
  130. Guus ralphm MattJ Seve ?
  131. Seve I'm here :)
  132. Seve I was just thinking on a funny sentence, but nothing came out.
  133. nyco quorum
  134. MattJ Here
  135. MattJ Sorry I'm late
  136. nyco cool
  137. nyco who leads?
  138. adityaborikar has left
  139. adityaborikar has joined
  140. Guus our (burger) king of course!
  141. nyco anyway, I had just one question: should we enlarge the poll on compliance badges to Standards@ instead of restricting it to Members@ ?
  142. Guus I don't mind.
  143. ralphm has left
  144. Guus is there a need to gather more feedback?
  145. Guus Let's do this properly.
  146. Guus bangs a gavel
  147. Guus 0. Role call
  148. Guus everyone but Ralph has made a noice
  149. nyco _o/
  150. nyco everyone but Ralph has complained about heat :)
  151. Guus 0. Agenda
  152. zach has left
  153. Guus apart from what's on Trello, and what Nyco just said, anything else?
  154. nyco I'm good
  155. Seve Nothing here
  156. Guus 1. Minute Taker
  157. Guus volunteers?
  158. Guus 😕
  159. Guus 2. Vote on Github contribution
  160. Seve I saw it, but I haven't made my mind yet, sorry.
  161. nyco a lot of stuff is highly obsolete
  162. nyco I'm all for merging, because that's done anyway
  163. nyco a contribution is a contribution
  164. Guus In short: we had someone that renewed many of the projects that are listed on our website. From what I can tell, the renewals itself are semantically correct. There was a debate wether or not we'd require _people involved_ with a project to renew them - or if we'd allow anyone to do it.
  165. nyco we still have no high-level, world-class XMPP app
  166. Guus Are we comfortable voting on this today, or does anyone want more info/time?
  167. Ge0rG From the floor, as the one who brought us into this mess, I'm strongly in favor of requiring somebody involved in the projects to do the renewal.
  168. Guus background info is linked to in the trello issue.
  169. Ge0rG As we don't have any other proxy info on commitment to xmpp from the developers.
  170. nyco maybe that rule was not our best move...
  171. nyco I see the intention though
  172. Guus I disagree - the list is on our website to facilitate finding useful things, not to pull in XMPP developers from the listed projects.
  173. MattJ (I'm just reviewing)
  174. nyco the same goes for Vysper, btw just revived... or not
  175. Guus nyco I'm aware that there's a lot of gray area here.
  176. Ge0rG Guus: yes, and things are only useful if they are still maintained.
  177. Guus Ge0rG - or heavily used.
  178. Ge0rG Compliance Suite would be another proxy, but then most are out.
  179. nyco that's the art of decision making: lacking clear black and white frontiers
  180. pep. Guus, it would probably be smarter not to encourage using unmaintained software, hence having developers chip in
  181. Ge0rG Guus: unmaintained clients that are heavily used are a major burden for our ecosystem.
  182. Guus Also - there's no practical way for the website editors to verify that people providing a PR are sufficiently associated with the project that they're renewing
  183. nyco pep. I agree with that, well I agreed with that originally
  184. Ge0rG Guus: I'm not speaking about 100% enforcement, but about clearly communicating.
  185. nyco we're still neutral, or more precisely wanna be
  186. Ge0rG Simply asking in the PR whether the author is involved would be fine by me
  187. Guus I think that with what we've done with the renewal, the quality of the list has dramatically improved. I'm not sure if putting in more enforcement effort would be worth it.
  188. Guus Also, I think that the PR that's outstanding now, would benefit the website.
  189. Guus I'd hate to reject that PR, simply because its author is not associated with most of the projects there were renewed.
  190. MattJ I think I'm in favour of accepting it
  191. nyco we still need better to qualify the quality, maintenance and modernity of a piece of software
  192. Ge0rG Guus: can you verify that all updated projects are actually still maintained? Including their xmpp parts?
  193. MattJ Ge0rG, I peeked at a few random samples, and it seemed so
  194. nyco just some websites are still up, dunno why
  195. Guus Ge0rG I've run through the list, and verified that most of the renewed projects indeed had activitiy
  196. nyco how can we truly check?
  197. nyco ask for declarative info from the owners?
  198. Guus nyco we can't without spending much more effort than I think is wise to spend on such a list.
  199. Ge0rG Pidgin also had activity. Nevertheless it's stuck in 2005, xmpp-wise.
  200. nyco agree, exactly what I wanted to point at
  201. nyco Psi(+) is the same
  202. nyco maybe not Gajim
  203. nyco anyway
  204. nyco chair? we take a decision today?
  205. Guus So, we now have a list of which 20% of the items on it are debatable, against more than half, before we had this procedure. That's good enough for me, to be honest.
  206. Ge0rG I suppose you can just have a Board vote on this specific PR, for an exception to the maintainer rule.
  207. nyco or we revoke the maintener revival rule ;-)
  208. Guus I'd prefer to make this a vote on the rule, not on a specific PR
  209. Guus to prevent this from coming back again.
  210. Ge0rG I'm not in a position to prevent that, so do go on.
  211. Guus if we cannot have that vote today, then I'd like to vote on just the PR today - to ensure that the author gets feedback.
  212. Seve So what would it be? We remove the once per year check? Or just the acceptance of the change only if it comes from a person related to the specific project?
  213. nyco we keep the rule, make an exception today, reconsider the rule later?
  214. Guus I propose that we vote to allow a renewal/listing of a software project from anyone - not just a project associate.
  215. flow *Is* there a "maintainer rule"?
  216. nyco yep
  217. nyco https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/
  218. Matt has joined
  219. Matt hey guys
  220. Guus flow: it's noted in a blog item, which I suspect is taken verbatim from the then-board descision.
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  222. Zash I thought these rules were precisely to prevent random users from asking to revew Pidgin?
  223. nyco oh
  224. Guus Zash: no, they weren't
  225. Guus they were there to be able to remove unused listings.
  226. Guus Board, are you comfortable voting today? If not, I'm punting this to next week.
  227. Nekit has left
  228. nyco what do we vote?
  229. flow Hmm it is not really explicitly spelled out in https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/ AFAIKT
  230. Guus I propose that we vote to allow a renewal/listing of a software project from anyone - not just a project associate.
  231. nyco right flow
  232. Matt is there a place where i can make a thread about xmpp??
  233. nyco Guus +1
  234. Matt i havent been able to find a fourms
  235. nyco MattJ what do you mean?
  236. Guus Matt is a different person than MattJ.
  237. Matt yeah
  238. pep. Matt, can you wait a bit please, this chan is currently used for a board meeting
  239. nyco yep, just saw this
  240. Matt uh oh
  241. Matt im sorry
  242. Guus Matt - we're in the middle of a di...what pep said. 🙂
  243. Guus no worries.
  244. Guus Seve, MattJ?
  245. MattJ I'm ok voting now
  246. Guus Seve?
  247. MattJ But the vote is simply allow/disallow, right?
  248. MattJ I have to say I prefer the middle-ground: allow by maintainer by default, allow exceptions if necessary
  249. MattJ This PR is exceptional because clearly some work was put into it
  250. Guus MattJ: requesting renewal doesn't automatically mean acceptance.
  251. MattJ Ok
  252. flow I would favor allowing everyone until there is a mechahism in place which only allows updates by registered (mail|xmpp) addresses FWIW
  253. Ge0rG so this is about who may open a PR on the website?
  254. Guus I'd prefer to vote on allow/disallow - to not have this keep coming back, which I think is wasteful of our time. If you disagree, feel free to correct me.
  255. nyco let's not make it too strict and too complex and too formal and too restrictive
  256. pep. flow, maybe once DOAP is democratized we could use the author list there :)
  257. MattJ "Should non-maintainers be allowed to renew a project listing?" is the vote then, right?
  258. Ge0rG once DOAP is deployed, we don't need to maintain a list. It would be auto-generated from the DOAP records.
  259. Guus MattJ: yes.
  260. pep. true
  261. Seve Guus, sorry, I'm just having difficulties on what to do. I would like to have a thought or two about what do we expect from the list, but anyway this will change on every board.
  262. kokonoe has left
  263. Guus but I'd first like to here from Seve
  264. Guus but I'd first like to heaer from Seve
  265. pep. Ge0rG, which might not be better tbh
  266. nyco s/heaer/read/
  267. Guus Seve, if we postpone the vote until next week, does that help you?
  268. pep. We don't have control over who commits on each client
  269. pep. But we could very well list them if they support X or Y. For future discussions I guess.
  270. Seve Guus, I'm on the side of having better quality over than quantity, but I think that's not possible right now as nyco said. I will be+1 on the vote, then.
  271. nyco honestly, doing a release is a very long checklist if authors delegate that to other people, that's cool
  272. kokonoe has joined
  273. Guus Ok, so, you're OK to vote, I gather from that. 🙂
  274. Guus For the record: I motion that the XSF should allow non-maintainers to renew a project listing on our website.
  275. Ge0rG I presume that my disagreement and its motivation has been logged.
  276. Guus Ge0rG if only we had a minute taker...
  277. Guus or: it'll be as logged as the outcome of this vote.
  278. nyco technically, logged, yes
  279. nyco http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/
  280. Guus nyco, seve, mattj, can I have a vote for the chat log please?
  281. nyco +1
  282. MattJ -1
  283. nyco Guus you vote as well :)
  284. Guus I'm +1
  285. MattJ Oh wait, we agreed it still needs review/approval, right?
  286. Ge0rG I read that as "editors will approve renewals from non-maintainers"
  287. nyco > For the record: I motion that the XSF should allow non-maintainers to renew a project listing on our website.
  288. MattJ "to renew" or "to request renewal"?
  289. Seve is waiting for clarification
  290. MattJ > 15:10:19 Guus> MattJ: requesting renewal doesn't automatically mean acceptance.
  291. MattJ If this is the case, I don't really know what this vote is for, since we'd be reviewing individual requests anyway
  292. Guus Mattj, the vote is for a PR not to be automatically rejected, if the PR author is not a project member.
  293. lumi has left
  294. Seve But no confirmation from a project member would be required, right?
  295. Guus right.
  296. MattJ I don't want PRs automatically rejected, which way should I vote? :)
  297. Ge0rG required for what? What will editors do with such PRs?
  298. Guus Ok, let push this to next week.
  299. MattJ Ok :)
  300. Ge0rG will they be brought up to Board?
  301. Guus We can discuss this out of the context of this meeting
  302. Ge0rG or will editors just decide, somehow?
  303. Guus (I need to go soon)
  304. nyco it's 16:15 past
  305. nyco do we put an end to this meeting?
  306. Guus I motion that we, as a one time exception, accept https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/588
  307. Guus nyco, noted.
  308. Guus wait, let me rephrase that
  309. Guus I motion that, independent of the outcome of the pending discussion, now choose to accept https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/588
  310. nyco ok
  311. MattJ +1 to accepting PR #588
  312. nyco gotta go...
  313. nyco +1
  314. Guus +1
  315. Guus tx nyco
  316. Seve +1
  317. nyco thx all
  318. Guus Ok, that's a full house, motion carries.
  319. Guus 3. AOB?
  320. Guus (none for me)
  321. Seve None here
  322. ralphm +1
  323. Seve Wow, nice ralphm
  324. ralphm Also hi
  325. nyco oh hey
  326. Guus hi ralph
  327. Guus 4. Date of next
  328. Guus +1w
  329. nyco +1
  330. ralphm Yay
  331. Guus 5. End
  332. Guus bangs the gavel.
  333. nyco thx all
  334. ralphm Thanks guus
  335. nyco bye
  336. Ge0rG Btw, ChatSecure and Empathy from that PR don't look very maintained. The last actual code change to Empathy was in Sep 2017.
  337. dwd Ge0rG, Don't say that *now*.
  338. pep. Ge0rG, empathy is very much not maintained from what I understand.
  339. Ge0rG dwd: I'm not on Board, so it wasn't my duty to review that PR in time for the vote.
  340. Ge0rG which is just an excuse for me not having uncollapsed all the diff chunks
  341. ralphm https://github.com/GNOME/empathy
  342. ralphm 7 days seems recent
  343. Ge0rG ralphm: The last *actual code change*
  344. pep. Collabora at least hasn't worked for ages on it. And independant devs are not pushing anything anymore. Also there's now a "new" xmpp backend for telepathy, telepathy-nonsense (empathy uses gabble)
  345. dwd pep., Yeah, Empathy's backend was wjjjt's, I think, and he's not worked on it in a decade or so.
  346. Chobbes has joined
  347. waqas Last commit with actual release code changes was in Aug 17, 2017 (not including translation fixes)
  348. Ge0rG (maybe this is just another way to confirm that project maintainers should be involved in the renewal 🤷)
  349. Guus I wonder if much of the discussion that we're having here is caused by a difference of perspective. In my perspective, this list is "good enough" if it doesn't list a significant amount of old/crappy projects - like it did before we had the renewal process. I feel that others try to hold that list to a higher standard.
  350. Guus Although I'd love the list to be "better", I fear that the effort involved would skyrocket - which in my opinion isn't worth it.
  351. Guus That's why I'm OK to settle for what I think is "good enough" (which generally is what we have now)
  352. Ge0rG Guus: I know that some people in the XSF are very focused on keeping the XSF neutral, and listing some implementations while deliberately delisting others is only one small step away from violating neutrality.
  353. Ge0rG Which is why the periodic renewal by projects was introduced in the first place, because it is clearly not a violation of neutrality.
  354. Ge0rG or rather, it provides an objective way to treat all projects, while significantly improving the SNR of the list.
  355. Ge0rG so nobody can cry foul.
  356. Guus SNR?
  357. Ge0rG if the current Board is okay with having editors or the Board decide on non-maintainer PRs based on subjective criteria, so be it.
  358. Ge0rG Guus: signal to noise ratio
  359. Matt has left
  360. Ge0rG https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kopete-devel/ also looks more dead than alive.
  361. Guus Ge0rG: we could still accept _all_ PRs, without applying any criteria other than very basic ones (eg: is the listed website reachable).
  362. matt has joined
  363. Guus That's not ideal, but would still be an improvement over what we had before the renewal policy (as old/crappy listings will eventually go away, unless renewed)
  364. Guus or at least, I'd be willing to go with that, until we find that those are being structurally renewed, too.
  365. Ge0rG Guus: this allows gaming of the list by project affectionados.
  366. Ge0rG I'm still using my favorite jabber client from 2002, it needs to be on that list!
  367. Guus Not more than what we had before the renewal process.
  368. Ge0rG Guus: I think we agree that before, the situation was just bad.
  369. matt hey no offense to anyones emotions but why is this chat public?
  370. matt how do you guys combat people like coming in and start spamming
  371. Ge0rG matt: that's a very minor problem, and typically solved manually by the room admins
  372. Guus Hey Matt, unsure what you mean? We certainly didn't want to come across as rude.
  373. matt no im not upset
  374. Guus or are you not specifically meaning _this_ argument? 🙂
  375. Guus ah ok 🙂
  376. Guus well, what Ge0rG said. There are moderators here, that can remove people from the room.
  377. matt pretty cool to see the dev work on a project though
  378. Ge0rG Guus: also please let me remind you of https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/425
  379. Kev I still like the original process we agreed, FWIW (someone on the team renews it, it goes on, else not). It was simple (although obviously people can lie about affiliations) and consistent.
  380. dwd matt, Not even the dev work, this is all a meta-level up from there.
  381. matt huge fan of xmpp been using it for a year now
  382. matt i hope you guys can come down to nyc some time
  383. dwd matt, Cool. What are you using it for, and what clients/servers/etc?
  384. Ge0rG I think the developers of ChatSecure are located in NYC
  385. matt oh really?
  386. dwd Also yeah, it'd be lovely to get the US Summits going again somehow.
  387. matt would totally love a meet up
  388. Guus US summit would be nice to have again!
  389. matt i mostly use xmpp for IMs and file transfers
  390. Ge0rG Kev: +1
  391. matt im pretty vanilla
  392. matt but i wanna implement a new system
  393. dwd matt, Personal use with friends, that kind of thing?
  394. matt yeah
  395. APach has left
  396. Guus I'm off to do more work again. Thanks for the insights, Ge0rG (others). Still not seeing it your way though 🙂
  397. dwd matt, Cool - that's probably our biggest use-case, but still most people use Signal/Whatsapp/Facebook Messenger/etc, so it's nice to see.
  398. Ge0rG Guus: whatever makes your Board work.
  399. matt me and my friends love it
  400. dwd mathieui, So by "a new system", you want to write a new client, or something else?
  401. Ge0rG Guus: but don't mind me complaining in the next pidgin renewal PR
  402. dwd Ooops.
  403. matt it brings back that old 90s AIM feel that we grew up with
  404. dwd matt, So by "a new system", you want to write a new client, or something else?
  405. matt I wanna add DND stats to the Vcards
  406. Guus Ge0rG I would send out rescuers if you'd fail to complain on that.
  407. matt i want to add Real life experience to xmpp
  408. matt like life RPG but with instant messaging
  409. dwd matt, Ah, you'd probably want to add extension stuff like that to PEP, I'd think.
  410. dwd matt, That's the mechanism that, for example, location, mood, etc all work through.
  411. matt hm pep
  412. matt is that a module?
  413. Lance has joined
  414. pep. It's a specification
  415. APach has joined
  416. dwd matt, Serverside, it can be. But it's usually built in as standard on any server you're likely to use.
  417. matt why cant i just edit the Vcard module
  418. Zash We talk about standards here, not code.
  419. dwd matt, Well, if you did that, then no other client would be able to use what you wrote without special support.
  420. matt ah
  421. Guus Matt, in this room you'll find mostly people that discuss about the protocol, and not so much individual implementations. The goal is to have a general consensus, so that we can build interoperable implementations of clients/sever
  422. dwd matt, Whereas if you use PEP, you don't have to edit any server code at all, and any client can just add the support for the DND/RPG/etc data you add.
  423. Guus Matt, in this room you'll find mostly people that discuss about the protocol, and not so much individual implementations. The goal is to have a general consensus, so that we can build interoperable implementations of clients/servers
  424. matt very cool
  425. dwd matt, So you'd just edit your client's code to add the new PEP node and its data. Which is less work for you, plus it gives you things like push updates etc, which vCard won't do.
  426. matt ok so how do i do that with form data
  427. dwd matt, What client are you using?
  428. matt gajim
  429. Guus From a protocol perspective, you could use any of the features that dwd mentioned as an example. This is the documentation for sharing 'location' through that mechanism, for example: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0080.html
  430. matt and using ejabberd
  431. Guus (hoping that my random pick of examples was appropriate 😛 )
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  434. dwd matt, Gajim, you'll find, already uses PEP for location, mood, user tune, and probably some other things I've forgotten. Dig around in the code and you'll soon find it all.
  435. matt you guys are awesome
  436. matt thanks
  437. Guus We're here all week. Try the veal.
  438. matt come down to nyc
  439. matt and do a talk at barns and noble or something
  440. waqas has left
  441. matt you guys would be treated like rockstars here
  442. pep. They use XMPP?
  443. Guus We used to have a pretty strong presence west of the Atlantic, but things have shifted more to Europe in the last few years, sadly.
  444. dwd Guus, Well, it's great for *us*...
  445. pep. badum tsss
  446. Guus I'm happy with a EU-presence, but I wouldn't mind having a US one too. 🙂
  447. matt A lot of people use MQTT for production stuff
  448. matt like ecommerce
  449. matt updating qty
  450. dwd matt, For sure, but MQTT isn't any relation of XMPP.
  451. matt isnt there a module for xmpp
  452. dwd matt, For ejabberd, yes. As far as I know it's completely unstandardized though.
  453. matt ah ok
  454. Zash Not that far from saying "We use TCP for stuff"
  455. matt whats the best way to input xml data?
  456. pdurbin has left
  457. matt through a console like the one on gajim or pidgin
  458. APach has left
  459. Guus Unsure what you mean? You'd rarely want regular end-users to input raw XML data.
  460. Chobbes has left
  461. Guus If you want to play around with sending raw XMPP, then those consoles are probably a good choice though.
  462. matt the reason why i ask is cause at some point i want to people to fill out a quiz and it will send it their xmpp accounts
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  464. vanitasvitae matt: i *think* you should take a look at adhoc commands maybe
  465. matt ok
  466. Guus Dataforms, perhaps?
  467. dwd matt, XEP-0050.
  468. dwd !xep50
  469. dwd wonders if there's a bot in here these days...
  470. vanitasvitae Or this one? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0336.html#usecases
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  472. matt ok i will read this one
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  562. lovetox dont get how you want to use adhoc commands as quiz to random users
  563. lovetox what you should do is just attach a dataform with the quiz to a message
  564. lovetox then you go around and beg clients to implement support
  565. lovetox Gajim has a plugin that shows a button on messages that have a dataform
  566. lovetox so you can press the button the form opens you fill out the data, and press send
  567. lovetox actually i think this is underused, a lot of nice things you can do with that
  568. lovetox but i guess this is because dataform ui is not easy to implement and most client specially mobile dont have support
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  574. Ge0rG Yeah, you need to write a widget toolkit wrapper. Not a pleasant job.
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  582. Zash So, buttons?
  583. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/buttons.html with what changes?
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  585. pep. Zash, with data forms instead?T
  586. pep. Zash, with data forms instead?
  587. Zash You don't really get dataforms that simple
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  591. Zash pep.: Like https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/HNcubzSy4lwQv7zP/xform-buttons.md ?
  592. Zash or `<button><{form}x/></>` ?
  593. pep. Zash, looks good to me?
  594. pep. For the security considerations, I guess it's up to the client to be careful for their UI
  595. pep. For the security considerations, I guess it's up to the client to be careful to their UI
  596. pep. Maybe we'd need a FORM_TYPE value as well? :/
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  599. Zash pep.: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#voiceapprove
  600. pep. I mean your spec, maybe it could use a FORM_TYPE
  601. Zash There's no specification. This is already a thing.
  602. Zash xform-buttons.md is meant as an informational thing that says "hey you can do this already"
  603. Zash Hm
  604. Zash Maybe you could have a form that consists only of a `title`?
  605. Zash use that as button label
  606. Lance Something to put in a form field indicating "use this input to trigger form submit, instead of adding an extra Submit button"?
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  608. Zash `<button>` ?
  609. Lance i like it
  610. Zash Full circle?
  611. Lance `<field><button type="submit" /></field>`
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  613. Lance <button> as ui hint, type=submit as behaviour hint
  614. Zash Tho for the use case of just having a few auto replies, xforms is massively overkill
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  616. Lance with full xforms though, i can see how i can replicate everything from stuff like slack command bots, that aren't just buttons
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