XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2019-08-19


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  84. COM8 Is there a simple C++ XMPP library that lets me interact with raw XML?
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  89. COM8 I wan't to creat an application that runs on a microcontroller with only 500kByte of ROM
  90. jonas’ COM8, I used libstrophe or libcouplet in the past
  91. jonas’ (both are C)
  92. jonas’ (but should be perfectly usable with C++)
  93. jonas’ example usage in my project: https://github.com/horazont/hint/blob/devel/host/src/xmppintf.c
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  96. COM8 Thanks. will have a look at it
  97. Holger COM8: http://deusexmachinae.se/dxmpp/ was written with IoT stuff in mind, but not sure it's minimalistic enough for your use case.
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  100. COM8 Holger: dxmpp looks also interresting. Thanks.
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  244. Ge0rG Sigh. Prosody will send a cancel/not-acceptable if you are not in a MUC, Biboumi will send a modify/not-acceptable, and ejabberd will just send a sender-less message into the MUC if you happen to be an admin.
  245. Ge0rG Consistency, I want you back.
  246. moparisthebest back?
  247. Ge0rG Right.
  248. Ge0rG If I'm reading https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#stanzas-error-syntax right, `modify` is only about the data, not about your own state.
  249. MattJ I'd listen to reasoned argument about whether 'cancel' would better be 'modify', but I am currently unconvinced that 'modify' is correct
  250. Ge0rG MattJ: you can re-try sending the message after joining the MUC
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  252. MattJ True
  253. Ge0rG I remember a proposal about an application-defined condition of <not-an-occupant> of sorts.
  254. MattJ For me the semantics of the error types are generally most easily distinguished by the appropriate UI - e.g. 'modify' would re-show whatever dialog a user submitted that caused an action
  255. MattJ In this case I guess just the input box
  256. Ge0rG This feels slightly related to cancel/recipient-unavailable that mod_smacks sends when the session dies.
  257. Ge0rG MattJ: I recently added logic to yaxim to mark the message as "not yet sent" and to rejoin the MUC in those cases.
  258. Ge0rG but only on cancel/not-acceptable, not on modify
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  261. Ge0rG maybe Holger knows the right error bounce if you send a message while not being in an ejabberd MUC?
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  263. Ge0rG Also, the RFC has to say: 'The intended recipient is temporarily unavailable, undergoing maintenance, etc.; the associated error type SHOULD be "wait".'
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  265. Ge0rG MattJ: the RFC also proposes "modify" for not-acceptable.
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  323. Holger Ge0rG: Yes ejabberd returns modify/not-acceptable (as per the spec).
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  325. Ge0rG MattJ: ^
  326. Ge0rG Holger: it's only a SHOULD in the spec.
  327. MattJ If we deviate from the spec we can certainly fix that
  328. Ge0rG And modifying the message _data_ won't fix the issue
  329. MattJ I disagree with most cases of "only a SHOULD"
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  332. Holger Ge0rG: I'm slowly getting used to having to justify why on earth ejabberd adheres to SHOULDs :-)
  333. Kev Question: Servers are expected to validate stanza syntax for stanzas they route, but does anyone actually extend that to doing the xml:lang rule checking for duplicate bodies etc.?
  334. Ge0rG Holger: not long ago I violently complained about ejabberd implementing a MAY.
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  340. Holger I do remember :-)
  341. Holger Kev: ejabberd doesn't, FWIW. (It only checks the validity of the xml:lang value itself.)
  342. Kev Ta.
  343. jonas’ how about auth/not-acceptable, Ge0rG? :D
  344. Ge0rG jonas’: is that a serious proposal? 😜
  345. jonas’ Ge0rG, partly
  346. Ge0rG jonas’: you could submit a PR to 0045 with the new custom error condition.
  347. jonas’ I could indeed
  348. Ge0rG jonas’: will you?
  349. jonas’ not today
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  351. jonas’ I have an aioxmpp release to make
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  368. Ge0rG Technically, a message could also be rejected by a MUC for an actual policy violation, right?
  369. Ge0rG It would be modify/not-acceptable in that case.
  370. Ge0rG So I think cancel/not-acceptable is a cleaner way of signalling "you are not in the MUC".
  371. Ge0rG But less clean than cancel/custom-condition/not-an-occupant
  372. MattJ +1
  373. Zash Was it MattJ who said type=auth made sense?
  374. MattJ I don't think so
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  377. Ge0rG it was jonas’ and it wasn't very serious.
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  379. Zash Well if you consider a join to be almost like auth if you squint the right way
  380. Ge0rG Maybe we really just need MUC-Push
  381. jonas’ ITYM MIX
  382. Ge0rG Yeah, let's reinvent all of our protocols without learning from past errors.
  383. jonas’ I got the impression that MIX at least attempts learn from them
  384. Ge0rG From a subset of them, I'd say.
  385. MattJ From where I'm looking, it picks a handful of problems with MUC, and fixes them by exchanging them with other design trade-offs
  386. Ge0rG Mostly with a significantly increased complexity.
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  388. MattJ We are solving complex problems
  389. fippo the problem space is so complex that there is no one-size-fits-all solution
  390. MattJ Agreed
  391. fippo (what mattj said...)
  392. Ge0rG fippo: right. And forcing all the problems into one solution has proven to end up badly in the past.
  393. Daniel i find MIX to be easier than MUC with the shit loads of hacks you need to implement to make it bearable
  394. Ge0rG Daniel: only because you don't know yet the shitload of hacks you need to make MIX bearable
  395. Zash Wait a decade and say that again
  396. Daniel Ge0rG, well mix is not stable yet so we could fix them before they become hacks
  397. Zash Requirements change. Hacks accumulate.
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  399. Ge0rG Daniel: adding MIX rooms to your roster is already a huge hack.
  400. Ge0rG proxy JIDs... another hack
  401. Ge0rG handling of intermittent s2s failures: a hack waiting to happen
  402. Daniel well we decided to not do that
  403. Daniel putting it in the roster
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  405. Daniel the xep just doesn’t know that yet
  406. Ge0rG oh, where did I put my "told you so" stamp?
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  409. Daniel what part?
  410. Ge0rG MIX has all the signs of "design by committee"
  411. Zash MUC doesn't?
  412. Ge0rG Daniel: the MIX-in-roster part
  413. Daniel that we are going to decide not to do that?
  414. Ge0rG Zash: hm..
  415. Ge0rG Daniel: that it's a very dumb idea.
  416. Daniel yes; that's why we decided to get rid of it
  417. Ge0rG When did you? And who's "we" anyway?
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  420. Ge0rG ah, Summit
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  424. Ge0rG Heh, my first opposition to MIX in Roster was three years and two days ago.
  425. Zash Delayed happy opposition day!
  426. Ge0rG I'm not sure whether to be glad or sad.
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  431. jonas’ hm
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  434. jonas’ It was brought to my attention (as author of XEP-0414) that the section "Analysis of [Hash function use in] Existing XMPP Extensions" was lost in the split of XEP-0300 and XEP-0414
  435. jonas’ I am inclined to remove the (dangling) reference to that section from XEP-414 entirely
  436. jonas’ but I could link it to an older version of XEP-0300 instead
  437. jonas’ does anyone here happen to have a strong opinion on that one?
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  442. jonas’ https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/811
  443. Zash No strong opinions here. Maybe a "hmm, not sure" from me.
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  462. jonas’ those who have implemented XEP-0027 (Current Jabber OpenPGP Usage): my reading of the XEP indicates that messages are either signed or encrypted, but never both
  463. jonas’ this doesn’t make sense to me
  464. jonas’ but the XEP lacks a writeup on how an signed+encrypted message would look like
  465. ralphm You can just have both elements I think.
  466. ralphm In any case you only encrypt/sign the body/status.
  467. jonas’ but it’s not specified whether you sign or encrypt first
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  469. jonas’ it’s not specified whether the raw or the armored encrypted output is signed (if encrypt-then-sign is used)
  470. ralphm Yeah, maybe I'm wrong: “It does not enable both signing and encryption of a stanza, only signing of the presence status and encryption of the message body.”
  471. jonas’ that’s kind of meh
  472. jonas’ is it really how it’s deployed in the wild?
  473. ralphm I think the general opinion of it isn't high.
  474. jonas’ it seems to be the way how openpgp is implemented nowadays though
  475. ralphm Also replay attacks
  476. jonas’ yeah
  477. jonas’ that’d be my concern
  478. jonas’ but apparently that’s the case indeed
  479. jonas’ Conversations uses ACTION_ENCRYPT for the message
  480. jonas’ if I’m reading the code right
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  483. jonas’ https://github.com/open-keychain/openpgp-api/blob/master/openpgp-api/src/main/java/org/openintents/openpgp/util/OpenPgpApi.java#L119 https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/blob/49224335fc5cc9c950f347e29ab9f3bbe33792fc/src/main/java/eu/siacs/conversations/crypto/PgpEngine.java#L50
  484. jonas’ https://github.com/open-keychain/openpgp-api/blob/master/openpgp-api/src/main/java/org/openintents/openpgp/util/OpenPgpApi.java#L119 https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/blob/master/src/main/java/eu/siacs/conversations/crypto/PgpEngine.java#L50
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  487. moparisthebest there is a reason to encrypt but not sign, repudiation, ie "what? I didn't send that and you can't prove that I did!!!!"
  488. moparisthebest but there is also value in encrypt + sign if you don't need that property
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  491. flow I am always suprised that xep27 is still gets implemented given the amount of serious issues it has
  492. jonas’ (context why I’m asking: feature request for xep-0027 support against aioxmpp)
  493. Ge0rG jonas’: sometimes it's best to reject feature requests.
  494. jonas’ sometimes, but then again, we’d just provide the schema declarations anyways
  495. jonas’ e2ee implementation is for now out of scope for aioxmpp
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  497. moparisthebest flow, like what?
  498. moparisthebest I mean it's basically the same as encrypted but not signed email, it can be useful, you just have to know what you are getting
  499. flow moparisthebest, like the ones mentioned at https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0027.html#security (and there are probably more)
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  501. moparisthebest those aren't really "security issues" as such though
  502. flow and "it can be useful" is probably true, but I'd argue most xep27 users, would expect signed and encrypted messages
  503. flow the encrypt only use case is rarely useful
  504. Zash jonas’, this be why '27 is discouraged and OX is a thing I believe
  505. moparisthebest for example I used to have my various servers send me alert/cronjob emails etc pgp encrypted, and then I switched to xep27 xmpp messages, same (actually slightly better) security properties
  506. moparisthebest but yea if users think they are getting something else, that's their problem
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  508. Ge0rG moparisthebest: that doesn't sound like you had a requirement to not sign.
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  510. moparisthebest other than I didn't generate PGP keys for my servers no
  511. flow well it was signed before, so it is true that is not a step back. But if your use case is human-to-human interaction, then "encrypt only" is not what you ever want to do with OpenPGP
  512. flow *wasn't signed before
  513. jonas’ FWIW, I’m going to tack: .. warning:: Please see the security considerations of :xep:`27` before making use of this protocol. Consider implementation of :xep:`373` instead. on all the things touching XEP-0027 in aioxmpp
  514. jonas’ flow, I have in the past intentionally sent unsigned but encrypted emails
  515. jonas’ but those are very *very* rare cases
  516. jonas’ probably less than five since I started to use gpg
  517. jonas’ and I don’t think it’s the default in any way, and I *do* think that an E2EE protocol which does not support signing of messages *at all* is definitely a prolbem
  518. flow I can't imagine that the average joe user would want to send unsigned but encrypted mails
  519. jonas’ true
  520. jonas’ me neither
  521. flow jonas’, what was your intention sending unsigned but encrypted?
  522. moparisthebest anti-govt activists would though
  523. jonas’ flow, yes
  524. ralphm Average joe actually doesn't think about encryption at all.
  525. moparisthebest though I'd accept an argument they should just use OTR instead
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  527. jonas’ flow, I made statements which I wasn’t sure I wanted to have signed with my public identity.
  528. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I'm sure they could just create a throw away key
  529. flow moparisthebest, anti govt activists shouldn't use e-mail (and probably xmpp) at all for their communication
  530. flow jonas’, hmm, I don't know the exact case, but that is usually a sign to sleep over the mail another day until you send it ;)
  531. jonas’ flow, I had done that step already
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  575. pep. Is memberbot offline?
  576. pep. Ah it's fine now
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  579. pep. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Jonathan_Siegle_Application_2019 Is he around here somewhere? I've never actually heard of him, didn't even know he was running xsf machines
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  581. pep. (or maybe it's just that I don't know the realname)
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  583. ralphm No, he's very much in the background these days
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