XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2019-09-15


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  142. Jens Korte Hi! Is there a protocol or standard for connecting a standalone XMMP server to the Internet using USB sticks? I thought of poor areas in the world or Cuba, where people have a traditional grown "offline network".
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  144. ralphm Jens Korte: I'm not aware of something fitting that description. How would this work?
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  147. Jens Korte ralphm, I don't know with a new connection type between servers? I don't know the protocols
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  150. ralphm What I mean is: how is it supposed to work from a user's perspective?
  151. Daniel maybe looking at a protocol for *instant* messaging is not the right approach
  152. ralphm Well, I am from the time where BBS and UUCP were still the ways to share messages.
  153. ralphm And there's nothing about XMPP that requires instant communication patterns. Especially for messages stanzas.
  154. ralphm There are people working on things like https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/ which are fully decentralized and can fall back to sneaketnet, but that's not based on XMPP.
  155. ralphm But a UUCP like model for XMPP seems feasible.
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  178. Jens Korte Daniel, video chat isn't mesaging and sneakernet isn't instant ;) I was just wondering about offline support...
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  181. jonas’ Jens Korte, maybe look towards the Disruption/Delay Tolerant Networking community
  182. jonas’ XMPP-over-DTN hasn’t been explored much yet to my knowledge, but I’d be surprised if it had not been explored *at all*
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  184. ralphm Especially because we have entities working for military organisations.
  185. ralphm And then there is the ancient https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0013.html, which I don't necessarily recommend, but might address part of this.
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  210. Jens Korte I had a look at XEP 0013 before, but that is not the way I mean. Scuttlebutt is new to me and quite interesting. DTN is a quite big and solid thing. I can use it only, if it is used by a software. Thx for that.
  211. ralphm There's some related projects around scuttlebutt
  212. Jens Korte I will have a look at it later. I already found it in F-Droid
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  236. moparisthebest Jens Korte: I thought Cuba had it's own internet?
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  239. pep. > Daniel> maybe looking at a protocol for *instant* messaging is not the right approach XMPP is broader than just instant messaging fortunately, (even if there aren't many (open) implementations to show this off, they are not inexistent)
  240. ralphm Totally.
  241. moparisthebest https://gizmodo.com/cubas-illegal-underground-internet-is-thriving-1681797114 this kind of thing
  242. moparisthebest Which of course XMPP works fine on, doesn't need internet, just some type of connectivity
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  284. Ge0rG Daniel: you should @xmpp retweet https://twitter.com/iNPUTmice/status/1173175743209189376 as well
  285. Daniel i did
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  290. Ge0rG Ah, great. Didn't see it.
  291. moparisthebest Guess Twitter doesn't have reliable delivery either
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  306. Seve Daniel: you don't want it to be recorded or is the venue?
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  309. Daniel I don't
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  317. Ge0rG That's a bit surprising. May we know why?
  318. Daniel I think the format of Meetup (which I want to keep closer to 'friends hanging out') don’t go well with recording it. also I don’t want the pressure of having to live up to the level of quality that is required for permanently putting something on the internet.
  319. Daniel also if anything we'd only have audio
  320. Daniel i think there is a good chance that a similar talk will be given again in a more appropriate setting with better recording
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  323. Ge0rG Ah!
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  332. Surjo Hello
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  364. Jens Korte moparisthebest, "“El Paquete”, a sneaker-net distribution of media files that’s passed around the country on USB sticks and hard drives, and which may be Cuba’s largest source of private employment." https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-8740-the_internet_in_cuba_a_story_of_community_resilience#t=2 as of 12-2017. And yes there are two other network mentioned on that page, that are not sneaker-networks.
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  375. moparisthebest That's neat, though I feel like XMPP would be totally unsuitable for that, I could be wrong
  376. jonas’ at the point of doing stuff like sneakernet or DTN, you’d do away with the XML stream and just wrap stanzas in bundles and send them through the network.
  377. jonas’ the only thing left then is how to handle authn
  378. Ge0rG You need a very different type of user identity and routing mechanism. You could use xmpp message elements for the payload, but why?
  379. jonas’ Ge0rG, for s2s from mars to earth
  380. jonas’ you don’t want to do TCP over that type of link
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  382. Zash Fancy stuff where you gotta take the positions of heavenly bodies into account. And sometimes wait for months because your destination is blocked by the sun or something.
  383. jonas’ eeyup
  384. Ge0rG In Cuba?
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  386. Daniel You want sneaker net between Mars and earth? That's some insane RTT
  387. Zash That's basically DTN for ya
  388. Zash If you can handle that then you can handle dealing with the positions of cargo ships.
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  390. ralphm jonas’: bundles? Like, say, XML documents?
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  393. Zash Stream bundles?
  394. jonas’ ralphm, bundle as in Bundle Protocol
  395. jonas’ RFC 5050
  396. ralphm Ah
  397. Jens Korte I can't say any useful to DTN/sneakernet, but how about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers
  398. Zash Not totally unlike SMTP I'm guessing?
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  401. Ge0rG jonas’: tl;dr, are the bundles signed by the sending entity?
  402. jonas’ Ge0rG, I don’t think so in plain RFC 5050
  403. jonas’ the WIP next iteration of the bundle protocol (Bundle Protocol 7) has some security things
  404. Zash Who would MITM you in space?
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  406. jonas’ ah no, neither, so that must’ve been some extension to the protocol
  407. Ge0rG Yeah, we'll do the crypto after the MVP.
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  420. Daniel > Yeah, we'll do the crypto after the MVP. Ge0rG: Please give proper trigger warnings before making such a 'joke'
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  426. Ge0rG Daniel: the <s/> stands for "serious"! 🤪
  427. Ge0rG Last Friday I had a chat with the founders of a medical startup. They can't afford real developers, so they look for some students instead...
  428. Ge0rG I'm not making this up.
  429. Daniel i was that student
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  436. Jens Korte Zash, I guess the NSA, Russia or China will do the MITM just to make sure they get all the raw data. Am I right, a company from israel was the cheapest provider for internet in libanon? The same will happen in space with DTN, but instead of cheapest it will be because of fastest or most reliable.
  437. rion Jens Korte: also Kazakhstan officially does MITM for all traffic afaik. They force people to install special certificates to avoid warnings
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  439. Jens Korte rion, yes I have read about it at heise.de (german)
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