XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2019-09-19


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  210. MattJ Who is currently responsible for the next compliance suites?
  211. Ge0rG MattJ: me!
  212. MattJ Oh, nice :)
  213. Ge0rG MattJ: say that again after you tried convincing me to add something.
  214. MattJ We'll see :)
  215. Guus maybe he knows of someone else that is going to suggest something that Matt thinks is a bad idea.
  216. Ge0rG MattJ: you might bribe me by rewriting the introduction section with something useful
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  219. MattJ No, Ge0rG guessed it in one attempt
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  232. MattJ Did we agree that splitting a XEP doesn't require council?
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  240. Ge0rG MattJ: I can't give a definitive answer to that, valid for all circumstances.
  241. Zash Editorial changes are up to the editor?
  242. Ge0rG to the author, normally.
  243. MattJ iirc the MIX split wasn't put through council
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  246. MattJ I don't really mind either way, just would be nice to know how many battles I need to fight
  247. Zash And with whom
  248. MattJ Doing most productive standards-based stuff feels like a battle
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  253. Seve :D
  254. Ge0rG MattJ: you could start by saying what exactly you plan.
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  258. MattJ Ge0rG, and extend the duration of the battle? :)
  259. Ge0rG MattJ: this is getting too meta for me
  260. MattJ Me too, just wait for the PRs
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  262. jonas’ scary
  263. Ge0rG braces for impact
  264. Zash inb4 over 9000 XEPs
  265. Ge0rG Just split the existing ones on each heading.
  266. Zash When are we finishing the XEP-0060 split?
  267. Ge0rG Zash: after everybody implements MIX
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  269. jonas’ everybody including libpurple?
  270. jonas’ is "everybody implements MIX" the new "when duke nukem forever comes out"?
  271. Zash Pidgin with MIX support running on Hurd
  272. Ge0rG jonas’: yes.
  273. Ge0rG It used to be PlayStation 3 vs DNF vs DM8000 for me, but eventually, all three happened.
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  297. MattJ In-progress MAM diff: https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/stdin-s2ilB8Kj
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  300. Seve is on mobile for a few minutes
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  303. Guus Board meeting time
  304. Guus Ralph sends his apologies.
  305. Guus Seve is here, being very mobile
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  307. Seve :D
  308. Guus MattJ , nyco_ ?
  309. MattJ Here
  310. nyco_ _o/
  311. nyco_ thx to Daniel for the minutes
  312. Guus Carré!
  313. Guus MattJ do you want to take this one?
  314. nyco_ what?
  315. Guus hands gavel
  316. MattJ pulls up trello
  317. MattJ 0) Present: Guus, MattJ, nyco_ and Seve
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  319. MattJ Any minute-taking volunteers?
  320. Guus that awkward moment when everyone's looking at the same person.
  321. Guus I'll do them this time.
  322. MattJ and while volunteers ponder, anyone with topics for the agenda that are not already on Trello?
  323. MattJ Thanks Guus
  324. Seve None here
  325. nyco_ Thx Guus, no new item from me
  326. MattJ 1) Topics for decisions
  327. MattJ 1.1) CC by-sa, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/409
  328. nyco_ is the full webiste under CC by-sa?
  329. nyco_ also the XEPs?
  330. MattJ From a quick skim of the discussion, it appears we lost the licence from the website?
  331. nyco_ because we have a lot of contributors
  332. nyco_ https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/graphs/contributors
  333. nyco_ 117
  334. nyco_ no need for a CLA, I guess
  335. MattJ The XEPs have their own policy
  336. nyco_ that PR is obsolete anyway, we can trash it
  337. nyco_ I can add a CC by-sa (latest) in each newsletter individually, at no cost
  338. Seve I remember something happened and that PR had to wait for some reason, but can't remember why
  339. nyco_ there is no legal terms, nor any terms of service
  340. Guus From what I read in the PR, Goffi wants the newsletter to explicitly state that it's CC By-SA licensed, so that its content can be translated shared on other sites.
  341. nyco_ IANAL
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  343. MattJ I see no problem with that in itself
  344. Guus JC mentions that the entire website probably _should_ be under this license anyway
  345. Seve We may just be missing to add that on every newsletter and that would be it?
  346. nyco_ for the newsletter, on my side, no worry to make it CC by-sa explicity, for all starting from now, or individually
  347. Guus Goffi mentions that it still is not, and by adding the license at least to the newsletter, the problem thta he's having would be fixed.
  348. nyco_ that's a micro issue, what about the macro ?
  349. MattJ Well, we can first add it to the newsletter, and then resolve the website
  350. Guus If we at one point had the website under https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/ and the license reference got lost during a website makeover, I have no issue in adding https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/ to each newsletter.
  351. MattJ I think allowing distribution and translation of the newsletter is higher priority
  352. Seve Definitively
  353. nyco_ https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/
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  356. nyco_ why only 2.5?
  357. nyco_ https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/News_and_Articles_for_the_next_XMPP_Newsletter#Thx_and_CTA.2C_Call_To_Action_.28remove_this_mention_before_publishing.29
  358. nyco_ added
  359. Guus 2.5 is what we had. I don't know what the differences are between 2.5 and 4.0
  360. nyco_ so it this PR obsolete now? in which case we can reject it
  361. nyco_ 1.5
  362. nyco_ differences between 4.0 and 2.5 is 1.5 :)
  363. nyco_ you're welcome... :/
  364. MattJ Guus, what evidence do you have that 2.5 is what we had?
  365. Guus JC's comment in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/409#issuecomment-369945588
  366. MattJ Right, I was looking for more
  367. Guus pulling up wayback machine now...
  368. Seve Like an evidence? :D
  369. MattJ In the interests of getting things moving, I motion that we publish the newsletter as cc-by-sa in future, and tackle the larger issue of the website separately
  370. Guus agreed
  371. nyco_ ok, all newsletters from now on are under latest CC by-sa anybody against that?
  372. nyco_ +1 for that motion
  373. MattJ Seems like we're in agreement - Seve?
  374. nyco_ I raise the question: what version
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  377. nyco_ I motion "the latest"
  378. Seve Just thinking about if the XSF apart from the author could have the rights?
  379. Seve but I'm totally +1 with it
  380. MattJ 4.0 seems fine to me, unless someone has a reason to object
  381. nyco_ we are pointing to news, that we write, there will be some copy-pasting though, which is legally authorised
  382. Guus I don't have a reason to object.
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  384. Guus Can't find a reference to an exact version in the wayback machine on short notice (it ... is .. slow).
  385. nyco_ no, not 4.0, but "latest", which means when a new version is published, we auto-upgrade
  386. MattJ nyco_, I'm not sure you can just do that
  387. nyco_ you can
  388. Guus let's not auto-upgrade. We don't know what we're agreeing to, by doing that.
  389. MattJ or want to
  390. MattJ Right
  391. nyco_ I got lawyers in my coworking space, I'll confirm
  392. nyco_ then when a new version of the license is published, we raise the question again
  393. Seve cool
  394. nyco_ or we can just trust the license issuer to be just more competent than we are
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  396. MattJ Ok, I'll respond to the PR with our feedback
  397. nyco_ thx MattJ
  398. Seve Thank you
  399. MattJ 1.2) DOAP
  400. Guus so we agreed to not auto-update?
  401. Guus (for the minutes?)
  402. Seve No auto-upgrade, no
  403. Link Mauve Hi, I’m here to answer any question you have about 1.2.
  404. MattJ Guus, the PR is for 4.0 on the newsletter, so I think that's what we will go with for now
  405. Guus ok
  406. MattJ if anyone objects, shout, but I think that can be addressed separately
  407. MattJ DOAP PR is https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/409/files
  408. MattJ Nope
  409. MattJ Copy/paste fail. DOAP PR is https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/594
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  411. Guus I'm having concerns
  412. MattJ Technical or philosophical?
  413. nyco_ I have just asked my lawyers: you can publish content under "CC by-sa or later"
  414. nyco_ > Technical or philosophical? can it be another option?
  415. MattJ nyco_, thanks for the info
  416. Guus - DOAP as a protocol seems pretty new/unused - no updates in its git history for over a year. Is this the right tool to be used for this? - Adding more details to software listing on the XSF website is a slippery slope, as discussed before. - Asking for DOAP data would add hurdles for new projects to be listed - some projects already don't take the effort to do this simple listing - I don't want to make this more difficult.
  417. MattJ 1) doesn't concern me. I think the alternative is making up something of our own, which has zero tooling/etc. - DOAP is RDF, which has a bunch of existing tooling and projects around it
  418. Link Mauve - DOAP is used at least by CPAN (Perl repository) and PyPI (Python repository), I expect other ones too, and there were minimal additions I had to add to support our usecase.
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  420. Seve DOAP data should be optional for new projects (or any projects) to be listed. The more you provide, the better. But that should not block
  421. Link Mauve AppStream might be another to look into.
  422. nyco_ DOAP could structure the community a lot, as well as contribute to SEO
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  424. MattJ 2) I'm curious what the concrete problems are here. In the past discussions have been about how we can objectively verify someone's support for a certain protocol. Here they are self-reporting, and we just state that
  425. MattJ 3) it's optional, not a hurdle
  426. Guus 3) if some projects do it, your listing has to do it to 'keep up'
  427. Link Mauve For your third point Guus, I expect DOAP to allow relaxing the renewal requirement, for instance if a project just got a new release in the past year we could automatically consider it as the most recent renewal and avoid the manual one.
  428. MattJ Guus, and I'm fine with that - I think it's a great thing for a project to have
  429. Guus Link Mauve good point.
  430. Seve Guus, that means more incentive for projects to become better
  431. nyco_ this specific DOAP format may seem overkill though
  432. Link Mauve The exact rules are of course to be discussed.
  433. MattJ nyco_, I agree, but it can be automated
  434. MattJ and I don't see a better/simpler format than someone we just cook up ourselves
  435. Link Mauve nyco_, the main reason I went for this format was that it was already used elsewhere, had existing parsers, and so that other people could use them for different purposes than what we originally thought about.
  436. MattJ *than something
  437. Seve In this example you can see here: https://linkmauve.fr/extensions/xep-0048.xml Where it says "Software support", I would appreciate a lot a link or a comment to a page explaining how this data/support info is obtained, so we state it is not crafted by us
  438. nyco_ Link Mauve : that's what I used "may"
  439. Link Mauve This isn’t just about xmpp.org, but for any consumer to derive data from our list of XMPP software.
  440. Guus Seve that link doesn't work for me.
  441. nyco_ Link Mauve : good point, that's why I mentioned SEO
  442. Seve https://i.imgur.com/lx9zSpJ.png
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  444. Link Mauve Guus, Chromium is known to have issues with running JavaScript on XSLT-transformed pages, you may prefer to use a pre-rendered page.
  445. Guus Do we want to apply this before the spec has been ironed out?
  446. Seve Guus, maybe you can check my screenshot
  447. Guus Link Mauve I got a 404 actually, but nevermind. Seve's screenshot is useful.
  448. Guus I quite dislike that XEP example, by the way
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  450. nyco_ that software support table is awesome
  451. MattJ because?
  452. Guus I'd hate for discussions around 'why is my implementation not listed'
  453. MattJ "because you didn't provide a DOAP file"
  454. Seve Because you didn't provide
  455. MattJ "here's how"
  456. Seve ok MattJ, you win this time
  457. Seve That's why I'm saying we need that other page explaining this
  458. Link Mauve Seve, good point, we can add any such link once we have one written. :)
  459. Guus I don't like how that almost forces people to use this at all.
  460. nyco_ I don't get that "force", please explain?
  461. MattJ Guus, it doesn't force, but obviously if they do this then they benefit
  462. MattJ and I really see no problem - why wouldn't you do it?
  463. MattJ It's not like we're asking for money
  464. Seve I have some other frontend/interface points to discuss, but maybe that should go into another conversation
  465. Guus By not complying, you're at a disadvantage.
  466. MattJ So why not comply?
  467. Link Mauve Guus, the idea was to do it similarly to the w3c HTML5 pages, which for each section (for us each XEP I guess? At least for now) you can see which browsers support the feature.
  468. MattJ What are the barriers?
  469. nyco_ I share Guus' concerns about putting pressure on software projects owners, who are already struggling
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  471. MattJ nyco_, this removes the annual renewal requirement already, so they can spend their time elsewhere
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  473. Link Mauve We may even create a web page where you can input your software data and it will generate a beautiful DOAP file for you to host on your website.
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  475. Guus why not comply: time/money and a spec that's not ironed out.
  476. Seve To me, that gives you more reasons to keep up with your project. I find it a bit "weird" to have a client but not a list of what do you support, etc
  477. nyco_ MattJ there is still non-code maintenance to be done
  478. Seve We may even create a web page where you can input your software data and it will generate a beautiful DOAP file for you to host on your website. Problem solved!
  479. Link Mauve Guus, note that this PR doesn’t modify the XEP page at all atm.
  480. moparisthebest https://caniuse.com/ ?
  481. Link Mauve It only adds the data to Pelican for further use.
  482. Seve >We may even create a web page where you can input your software data and it will generate a beautiful DOAP file for you to host on your website. Problem solved!
  483. Link Mauve moparisthebest, this kind of website could perfectly use the DOAP data we will gather.
  484. nyco_ Link Mauve : agree a form can simplify people's lives
  485. Guus Link Mauve true.
  486. Link Mauve nyco_, I can add that as an actionable.
  487. MattJ I am strongly strongly in favour of this, and we can only make it better and easier over time
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  489. nyco_ moparisthebest : and the shiny new https://www.caniemail.com
  490. MattJ I see absolutely no reason why any project would be barred from participating
  491. Seve I feel the same excitement!
  492. nyco_ we need our own canixmpp.com
  493. Link Mauve That was the reason I proposed this PR as early, so we can discuss it and figure out the points to be resolved before going full out with it. :)
  494. nyco_ yeah, looks like we can build so much with only the small adoption of a format
  495. MattJ The meeting is over time. Do we want to vote on approving the PR in this meeting, or provide some actionable feedback on it?
  496. nyco_ looks like we have a consensus that DOAP can be cool
  497. nyco_ we have not agreed on the details and next steps yet
  498. nyco_ that's my feeling
  499. Seve I would like to ask for some frontend tweaks if possible (in the sense of, if those can be done by somebody)
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  501. MattJ Seve, there is no frontend yet (in this PR)
  502. Seve Ah, right hah :)
  503. MattJ This is just some tooling to fetch the data
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  505. Seve I went too far
  506. MattJ and then more PRs can follow, which actually do something with it
  507. Link Mauve Seve, note that there is no frontend work in this PR, it only adds a "doap" entry for each software we have in our lists, and a simple Python parser for them.
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  509. Guus If the question is only to add a link to software listing on our website (but I think that the PR also includes some kind of script?), I'd not object to just that.
  510. Guus what does the parser do?
  511. nyco_ so let's continue that discussion on the next board meeting?
  512. Seve I would be ok with voting for this PR
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  515. MattJ Yeah, I think we're going to have to call this one unfinished. I have another meeting to attend in a few.
  516. Link Mauve Guus, it parses a DOAP file and adds the data to Pelican’s internal structs, for further use.
  517. MattJ Feel free to continue discussion afterwards
  518. Link Mauve I could remove it from the PR if you want to only add the doap URLs.
  519. MattJ 2) Date of next
  520. MattJ +1w
  521. Seve }1
  522. Seve +1
  523. Guus +1w wfm
  524. MattJ bangs the gavel
  525. Guus I need to run too.
  526. Seve Thank you everybody! thanks Link Mauve for being present, that helps a lot
  527. Seve and Guus for the minutes, we love you!
  528. Link Mauve And to you all for running the board. :)
  529. Guus You should run next year!
  530. Guus see: council and board elections! 🙂
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  532. Daniel i think having the software list on xmpp.org list the compliance suite status is very helpful (and somewhat overdue) for users. it is fine to get your weekend project listed on their. but users need to be able to quickly figure out in what state a client is before clicking the link. and doap files seem to be a good way to figure that out automatically. also the reverse thing (show which software supports a given XEP) is nice as well. especially for libraries. (the list should be less in your face and also collapsible; but that's details)
  533. Link Mauve The design of the table in the XEP was edhelas’s work, kudos to him for that, but that’s a first attempt.
  534. Link Mauve We obviously can improve on it. :)
  535. Link Mauve Now that Pelican has access to the status of the XEPs per client, we could automatically select the relevant compliance suite badge.
  536. Daniel peli-who?
  537. Link Mauve The website generator used for xmpp.org.
  538. Daniel i see
  539. Daniel yes that would be super helpful. i mean right now the user will have to click through each website to find something that is actually good
  540. Daniel it might also bring more visibility to the compliance suits themselves
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  542. Link Mauve sonny, you may be interested, ↑
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  545. sonny Link Mauve, yes! I'm working on the proposal today and will send it to you
  546. sonny for review
  547. Link Mauve sonny, the whole DOAP thing might play well with it.
  548. sonny indeed
  549. Link Mauve See the messages since 15:50:49.
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  557. Ge0rG > i think having the software list on xmpp.org list the compliance suite status is very helpful Daniel: for that, a simple tuple of `"compliance-suite": 2019` and `"compliance-level": "advanced-im"` would be more than sufficient
  558. Ge0rG DOAP is significant overkill for that matter. I see how it's useful, but I really would like to have the CS level in the software listing rather sooner than later
  559. Ge0rG which was one of the points of the Badge.
  560. Chobbes has left
  561. Ge0rG Link Mauve: is there an elegant way to make use of implicit dependencies in DOAP? i.e. I don't actually do anything with RSM, except for applying it in MAM
  562. Chobbes has joined
  563. Ge0rG Or: I'm using 0049 only for Bookmarks
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  565. Daniel It might not be worth listing at all?
  566. Ge0rG Maybe.
  567. Ge0rG just realized that CS-2020 is missing one of the most important XEPs, ever. XEP-0245
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  573. Link Mauve Ge0rG, DOAP is purely descriptive, it would be up to consumer scripts to derive data from it.
  574. Link Mauve Also for user-facing lists I expect we wouldn’t show 0059 or 0049 at all, instead display Feature: Bookmarks.
  575. Link Mauve “we” being any random consumer script.
  576. Link Mauve Ge0rG, !
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  579. Ge0rG Link Mauve: so I need to enter all the dependencies manually, explicitly?
  580. Link Mauve If you want to advertise them, I’d say yes.
  581. Ge0rG Link Mauve: is there a mid-term URL for the style.xsl that I can use on the RDF file checked into my git?
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  583. Link Mauve Ge0rG, I have it at https://linkmauve.fr/extensions/style.xsl (just updated it), but I’m not sure about CORS things.
  584. Link Mauve Do you even need CORS with XSLT?
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  586. Ge0rG > Unsafe attempt to load URL https://linkmauve.fr/extensions/style.xsl from frame with URL https://op-co.de/tmp/yaxim.rdf.xml. Domains, protocols and ports must match.
  587. Ge0rG Link Mauve: so how can I commit it to source control and have it renderable?
  588. Link Mauve Ge0rG, use xslt-proc as part of your website’s build system?
  589. Link Mauve Or rely on the browsers’ XSLT processors by making sure you serve it with the correct MIME type.
  590. Link Mauve Or rely on the browsers’ XSLT processors by making sure you serve it with the correct Content-Type.
  591. Ge0rG I'm building my website from a different repository.
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  605. Ge0rG Link Mauve: so how's this for now? https://yaxim.org/doap/yaxim.rdf.xml
  606. Ge0rG Also why is 0030 even versioned 2.5rc3?
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  609. Link Mauve Ge0rG, I’m not aware of short-name in DOAP, and neither is the DOAP owl.
  610. Ge0rG ~blames~ thanks wurstsalat
  611. Link Mauve If you want to invent new properties you have to do them in a different namespace.
  612. Ge0rG so should name be the long name or just "yaxim" then?
  613. Link Mauve Just yaxim I think.
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  616. Link Mauve As an implementation detail of the xmpp.org Pelican integration I started, it should match the name used on xmpp.org.
  617. Ge0rG ah well, it will be fun with Bruno the Jabber™ Bear
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  620. Ge0rG Link Mauve: that list has many supplementary XEPs now, no idea which ones to kick out.
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  622. Link Mauve Ge0rG, otherwise it looks good. :)
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  624. Ge0rG Link Mauve: awesome!
  625. Ge0rG Link Mauve: why is the xsl referencing ../style.css btw?
  626. Ge0rG it makes self-hosting moar complicated
  627. Link Mauve I think because PulkoMandy has a the sample DOAP files in a directory, with the XSLT and CSS in the parent.
  628. Ge0rG ah well. I won't ever touch that again, anyway.
  629. Ge0rG Is there a more elegant way to make the DOAP apply for Bruno as well as for yaxim, than `cp yaxim.rdf bruno.rdf`?
  630. Link Mauve ln -s?
  631. Link Mauve Also no, you’ll have to change the name probably.
  632. Ge0rG Link Mauve: how am I supposed to change name and desc... yeah
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  635. Zash cp
  636. Ge0rG cp is more elegant than cp?
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  639. pep. Template it somehow?
  640. Zash cp+sed>cp
  641. Ge0rG Sigh.
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  643. MattJ Yeah, I think automating it is the way
  644. Link Mauve Zash, that’s UUOC. :p
  645. kokonoe has left
  646. MattJ Re-posting my in-progress MAM diff: https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/stdin-s2ilB8Kj
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  649. MattJ lovetox and jonas’ ^ hopefully it addresses some of the issues you have asked about
  650. Zash > and also implement , and clients that depend on these fields MUST verify [...]
  651. MattJ Good catch
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  653. Zash Bug in the thing or in the text?
  654. MattJ I think the text, but looks like I already fixed it
  655. Ge0rG MattJ: will you also handle my preferences-as-a-tristate remark from standards@?
  656. Zash Tristate? Which email?
  657. MattJ Ge0rG, preferences have been removed :)
  658. MattJ (they will be submitted as a separate XEP)
  659. Daniel MattJ, so assuming i use after-id and I want the second page? will i just make a new request with a new after-id or do i RSM?
  660. MattJ Daniel, it's confusing because there is overlap, but RSM seems to not be enough
  661. Ge0rG Zash: (c) from https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-November/033762.html
  662. MattJ Daniel, so I would imagine before-id/after-id should be used for filtering, and RSM only for paging (as it was designed)
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  664. MattJ and I just need to figure out if/what text should be added about that
  665. Ge0rG It's great to dig out years-old mails that nobody responded to.
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  667. Zash Ge0rG: We added that to Prosody at least, right?
  668. Daniel MattJ, so to answer the question on the second page i'd be using RSM?
  669. Ge0rG MattJ: I suppose that you'll add preferences into a separate XEP, then. That would be a great opportunity to sneak it in.
  670. Ge0rG Zash: please read all of it.
  671. Zash Ah
  672. MattJ Daniel, yes, at which point if you only have after-id in the query and are using <after> in RSM, you could drop after-id with no change in the results you see
  673. MattJ But that wouldn't be necessary
  674. Daniel right. and/or I would be in the slightly confusing situation where i have an after-id and a rsm after that are different?
  675. MattJ Yep
  676. MattJ If you find it confusing, just specify one or the other
  677. MattJ One selects the query range, one selects the page
  678. MattJ But you could change the range to begin at the start of the page you want to request, and you'll get the same results
  679. Daniel right. so 'count' is not the full archive
  680. MattJ Right
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  685. MattJ I suspect this will be quite a pain to implement on the server side, fwiw, need to investigate that
  686. MattJ But the goal is to solve real problems that people are having with MAM (as clients), so I want to make sure these changes solve those problems before going much further
  687. Daniel i always thought it was supposed to fix server side issues?
  688. Daniel MattJ: are you going to write a security section and/or other words regarding the client having to match the query ID with running queries and verify the sender ID? If not I could maybe volunteer to do that
  689. Daniel most clients seem to be fine with just abusing RSM for that
  690. MattJ I can include that, yeah
  691. MattJ Made a note
  692. MattJ I think abusing RSM is fine in general, and I'm not even sure it's abuse... if you look at the archive as a stream of messages and the client wants successive pages
  693. MattJ It just gets messed up in corner cases, such as where people want to fill a hole in the past
  694. Daniel ah. because you can’t have both
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  696. MattJ Yeah
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  698. MattJ Also, <before> in RSM has a slightly different meaning
  699. MattJ <before> in RSM means you want the page before the id you provide
  700. MattJ before-id doesn't select the page, you'll still get the oldest page first
  701. MattJ This probably needs some extra clarification in the doc also
  702. Ge0rG MattJ: you should also have a section on "Order of events", for clients that desire a mostly-historically-linear access to the log
  703. MattJ Rough description of what it would contain?
  704. Ge0rG i.e. fetch MAM before enabling carbons / sending presence-available, then immediately close the gap :>
  705. MattJ Right
  706. MattJ That's originally what this section was: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#sync
  707. MattJ a nice how-to for clients
  708. Ge0rG Very nice.
  709. MattJ and then it just didn't work, because of the race
  710. Ge0rG and then Bind2 never happened
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  712. MattJ so I documented the race problem and postponed the how-to for a brighter day, when it was fixed
  713. MattJ so I'd like to make bind2 happen
  714. MattJ or bind-not-2, whatever it takes to get something done
  715. Ge0rG MattJ: MAM-sub
  716. MattJ because it's pretty easy to fix this
  717. Ge0rG just gimme MAM-sub: an atomic switchover from MAM to live traffic, given on a date/id passed by the client; auto-enabling of "sent" carbons, delivery of all received messages, similar to the Carbon rules but with no forwarded wrapper, immediate acking with mam-id of outgoing messages
  718. Ge0rG ah, yeah. wiping of all MAMed messages from offline, delivery of the remaining offline messages
  719. Ge0rG keep 0198 and session binding out of it.
  720. Zash That's not what I thought "MAM-sub" meant.
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  726. Ge0rG MattJ, Zash: https://gist.github.com/ge0rg/5ae3365196a0c046fc596bbf707fdc15
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  728. Ge0rG MattJ: this will solve all MAM problems, except for MUC-PMs
  729. Ge0rG and it's sufficiently easy to make me wonder why it's not there yet ;)
  730. Daniel all MAM problems?
  731. Ge0rG Daniel: that was a slight exaggeration.
  732. Ge0rG It will only solve the problems I'm bitching about for two years.
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  734. Daniel i've been using. gather last_id; enable_carbons, send presence, fire mam query for years w/o any known issues
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  737. Daniel sure a "get mam-id for sent messages" would be nice
  738. Daniel (i also feel like we've talked about that a week ago)
  739. Ge0rG Daniel: yes, it works, at the cost of client side deduplication
  740. Daniel what are you going to dedup?
  741. Daniel offline messages?
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  745. Ge0rG Offline, online and MAM results
  746. Ge0rG Also my database schema requires messages to arrive roughly in chronological order.
  747. Daniel well yes you need dedup but online + mam result will rarly happen
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  751. Ge0rG Rarely is not never
  752. Ge0rG Mobile connections may be very slow, especially in Germany
  753. Daniel sure. like i said you'll need dedup. but traffic wise or what ever you are concerned about it's not an issue
  754. Daniel i mean you are getting like 1 duplicate message or what? who cares
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  756. MattJ Daniel: your XMPP client will never succeed while you have that attitude
  757. MattJ Everyone knows success depends on a perfect protocol first
  758. Ge0rG 🤐
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  771. Ge0rG There is actually one other issue with synchronizing MAM. How do I decide whether to ring the phone notification sound or not?
  772. jonas’ delay
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  775. Daniel wait until catchup is complete. crossrefenece with messages received from your other instances. take chat markers into account. and then bleep once if there are messages in the new queue
  776. Ge0rG Daniel: regardless of whether it's a fresh sync or just a reconnect after 10mins of lack of coverage?
  777. Daniel yes
  778. Daniel i mean depends on what a fresh sync is to you
  779. Ge0rG I just installed the client
  780. Daniel are you downloading the entire MAM?
  781. Daniel i use what i described in catchup situations. first install isn’t catchup
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  793. Ge0rG The current beta is downloading 31 days, I'll probably limit it to 7 or so.
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  795. lovetox Great MattJ that will certainly help to fill holes
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  799. lovetox i just wonder is the field request not enough to detect fields
  800. lovetox do we need another feature?
  801. lovetox sure its one less roundtrip
  802. lovetox but are we going to add extended2, extended3 now for every field we add to mam?
  803. lovetox though if i look at pubsub i guess thats not a problem
  804. lovetox ^^
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  824. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0030.html#appendix-revs > Version 2.5_rc3_ What's up with an rc version?
  825. Zash For 2 years?
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  830. Ge0rG Zash: yes
  831. Zash wat
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  861. pep. Let's all show openssl how much we care about them adding SRVName and xmppAddr support to `openssl x509`: https://github.com/openssl/openssl/issues/9950 https://github.com/openssl/openssl/issues/9951
  862. pep. :)
  863. Zash Step 3: Reopen https://github.com/letsencrypt/boulder/issues/1309
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  866. pep. Don't we need to fix the CA/B stuff before?
  867. Zash Boulder, the software, could support it. Imagine if the XSF ran an XMPP-only CA (again). :)
  868. Zash Doesn't mean Let's Encrypt has to have that feature enabled in production.
  869. Zash That part would probably require fighting the CA/B forum
  870. pep. Right. I guess we can do both at the same time
  871. pep. Pay for lobbies to change CA/B stuff, and implement opt-in support in boulder
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  873. MattJ lovetox: I don't intend to add an extended2, but move to draft
  874. MattJ And the field request wouldn't cover the page flipping feature
  875. pep. MattJ, move to draft doesn't prevent MAM42 from adding #extended2, or #extended38
  876. pep. That you add it in 313 or in another XEP, it's the same to me
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  879. MattJ I originally planned another XEP, but it makes more sense here
  880. zach has left
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  882. MattJ More than prefs did
  883. Zash XEPlosion
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  894. pep. in sasl anon, what's the "trace" for? If the client want to optionally give some fingerprint info? (that can't really be trusted I guess as it's not specified(?)
  895. Zash In the olden days you'd put youn email there, for some reason.
  896. Zash In the olden days you'd put your email there, for some reason.
  897. pep. That's up to the service require such info I guess?
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  899. Zash IIRC that's what anonymous FTP sites said in their greeting messages decades ago.
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  930. Link Mauve Daniel, Zash, sonny, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/594/commits/f4b561b7cc80a890076e6b37c5393db0eddc6915
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  933. Link Mauve For now it’s a text version, but I expect to use badges instead once we want to integrate it on the website.
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  938. Ge0rG It's not 2020 yet...
  939. Link Mauve Ge0rG, I can move back to 2019 if we want to enable the badges before that.
  940. Link Mauve But I think targetting 2020 might be a good idea.
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  949. Link Mauve Ugh, when we accepted https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/812 I forgot to check that xs:unsignedInteger exists: turns out it doesn’t.
  950. Link Mauve This PR probably wanted to use xs:unsignedInt instead.
  951. Link Mauve I’m sorry about that. /o\
  952. Link Mauve vanitasvitae, ↑
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  957. vanitasvitae Oh you're right.
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