XSF Discussion - 2019-09-21

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07:54:35 flow MattJ, May I suggest to remove the "Servers MUST NOT include the <stanza-id/> element in messages addressed to JIDs that do not have permissions to access the archive" from xep313. It appears to provide very little, I'd even say nothing because the id-String shouldn't reveal anything, for a lot of complexity in the MAM archive service implementation
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08:01:03 lovetox it does reveal something
08:01:11 lovetox on ejabberd for example the exact timestamp of the message
08:02:24 MattJ I think it would have to be tied with a requirement that ids do not leak any info
08:02:36 lovetox yeah and this would be bad
08:02:37 MattJ I'm not sure timestamp counts as a problem
08:02:52 MattJ But if it was combined with a counter it would
08:03:05 MattJ And timestamps are not unique on their own
08:03:08 flow lovetox, well that would violate a MUST frmo xep359
08:03:22 flow also I am not sure if timestamps are a problem
08:03:23 lovetox its very useful that ejabberd uses timestamps as messages
08:03:27 lovetox its very useful that ejabberd uses timestamps as ids
08:03:35 lovetox as it allows to determine a order
08:03:45 lovetox even if impl cannot rely on it because other servers dont do that
08:03:51 MattJ Tell me you don't depend on that :)
08:04:01 flow furthermore, we could at least relax the requirement in xep313, e.g. by making it conditional
08:04:07 lovetox of course i dont, as not all servers do that
08:05:05 lovetox when i remember correctly the only argument against a orderable id was
08:05:16 lovetox clusters may be more complex to implement that
08:05:20 flow but I would simply remove that requirement from xep313, which also would make the xep less complex, which is always good
08:20:05 pep. > MattJ> I think it would have to be tied with a requirement that ids do not leak any info Isn't that the case already?
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08:20:26 pep. For 0359 stuff
08:25:13 pep. Hmm, it says "unique and stable" and recommends UUID..
08:25:42 pep. I think that's good enough
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08:38:42 lovetox i see xep 0398 is under specified
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08:39:18 lovetox it says "Upon receiving a vCard publication request with a valid photo attached"
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08:39:31 lovetox so no photo element is invalid in this case?
08:40:11 lovetox means every client out there now has to publish empty photo elements in there vcard for avatar conversion to work?
08:40:33 lovetox is this intended? why not just interpret no photoelement as <photo/>
08:41:12 lovetox or did the XEP author foget about the "Delete a photo" usecase
08:41:27 lovetox and this sentence reflects only setting a avatar other than none
08:41:41 lovetox ^ Daniel
08:43:27 Daniel yes the XEP doesn’t cover deletion
08:43:40 Daniel yet
08:45:14 flow pep., see also the security section of xep359
08:45:46 pep. Right, so that's settled then
08:46:09 flow MattJ, xep359 already has that requirement that IDs do not leak inve, hence i was supprised to find that section in xep313
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09:21:15 MattJ pep.: "unique and stable" is not enough
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09:22:21 MattJ We've already seen security issues from far simpler and more obvious problems, it's not enough to say that a sentence in a separate document covers us
09:22:43 pep. MattJ, see what was said above
09:22:53 pep. 0359 mandates more than that
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09:24:36 pep. - the IDs defined in this extension MUST be unique and stable within the scope of the generating XMPP entity - Entities observing the value MUST NOT be able to infer any information from it - The value of 'id' MUST be considered a non-secret value.
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09:29:01 pep. (obviously, "MUST NOT be able to infer any information from it" is only practical to some extent, but that wouldn't be an issue for MAM would it)
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09:55:24 Ge0rG I suggest to introduce a new stanza element, <mam-id>, that is not leaking any information.
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09:56:07 Ge0rG With a "MUST NOT be equal to any of the other id elements or attributes of the message" requirement.
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12:43:06 MattJ Can't tell if sarcasm
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13:41:37 Zash In https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0398.html#presence it's implied but not explicitly stated that the server should leave empty <photo/> elements alone. Why is that? (poke Daniel)
13:42:45 Daniel Iirc to give clients the option to join w/o avater
13:43:10 Daniel Not that it really makes sense. But I think that was the intention behind it
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14:06:55 Zash Some clarification there would be good I think
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14:49:01 Daniel Quick update on the IM regulation. I just (accidentally) talked to someone who was on the SPD's (major party in Germany) digital working group thing. And it was her that Katharina barley asked in 2018 about IM regulation. And she contacted the CCC who was like "mhh we don't really know". And now it's apparently dead because according to her the SPD is not in a functional state right now
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14:49:15 Daniel Cc Ge0rG
14:51:58 pep. What was that article then a week ago? :/
14:53:04 Daniel dunno. i mean it did not have any sources. maybe it was old sources
14:53:08 Daniel or just made up
14:53:14 pep. k
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14:57:01 Daniel also she asked for me contact information and i wrote down my website and my email address and then she asked for my phone number because she doesn’t write email; and under pressure I couldn’t remember it (why do people think that 10 random numbers are a good ID) - i gues s i need a business card
14:59:19 pep. "why do people think that 10 random numbers are a good ID" haha, I agree, and that's not even because of the infamous Zooko.
15:05:23 Ge0rG Daniel: did you take her phone number at least?
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15:36:40 Daniel Ge0rG, no. it felt more like a "don’t call us we call you" situation
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15:40:15 Ge0rG Daniel: that's a bit sad.
15:42:44 Daniel last time i tried to talk to a politician she offered to take a selfie with me
15:43:53 pep. "PR, PR, PR"?
15:44:51 Ge0rG Daniel: looks like you learned the hard way how modern politics work...
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15:57:35 fippo daniel: maybe she wanted the phone number to contact you via signal? :-p
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