-
moparisthebest
just came across this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SiteJabber does that infringe on *the trademark* ?
-
pep.
I'm happy I don't have to answer that for them :x
-
moparisthebest
I think the XSF does, since it has _ days to enforce trademark infringement or it loses the right to the trademark
-
moparisthebest
I can't remember the # of days, but it's few, 30/60/90 or so, no problem since we have lawyers on retainer right? :/
-
stpeter
It is NOT, I repeat NOT, the XSF's job to police the JABBER™ trademark. That is the responsibility of the trademark holder (Cisco). It is not even our job to police use of the JABBER mark in open-source software implementations of XMPP. Our only job is to sublicense the JABBER mark on request to projects that request sublicensing under the terms of the XSF's (formerly JSF's) agreement with Cisco.
-
pep.
hmm, https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/pending-applications the link in there gives 404. Maybe we should ask the person handling trademark@jabber.org (stpeter?) to PR against that page when it happens? (/pending-applications)
-
stpeter
I think we have an open issue or PR about that.
-
rion
and jingle again.. can we force in the XEP for content-add and some other messages to have just one content definition? To solve the case when for example we have in the time out-of-order and some other response for different definitions?
-
rion
as for me all the jingle has nice ideas but bad design :(
-
rion
Or we can introduce another error. like ambiguity. and describe best practices.
-
rion
another way is to always send iq error if we have it for at least one content definition and let a developer decide what's he's doing wrong while sending requests
-
flow
rion, could you elaborate on the possible issue that arrises when content-add has multiple contents?
-
flow
I am asking myself why the unique 'name' of the contents doesn't help to resolve ambiguity
-
rion
flow: for example for incoming transport-replace for 2 jingle-ft. Where for one of them our side as initiator also started transport replace but not sent it yet and should respond with iq error, but should accept the second because our side thinks it's not failed yet
-
Guus
How does one retrieve a list of all MUC rooms that one has an affiliation with, from a particular XMPP domain?✎ -
Guus
How does one retrieve a list of all MUC rooms that one has an affiliation with, from a particular XMPP service? ✏
-
jonas’
not
-
David Cridland
Guus, disco#search
-
David Cridland
Guus, One day we should actually design such a thing.
-
flow
rion, can't you do a transport-accept for the one and a transport-reject for the other? and what does "also started transport replace but not sent it yet and should respond with iq error" mean? why does one has to respond with an iq error here?
-
flow
also just do verify: we are dealing here with two file transfers in the same jingle session?
-
rion
flow: if I send transport-reject instead of iq error then remote can think I don't support this transport at all and remove it from the list of available for replace. then consequent transport-replace from my side may fail
-
rion
flow: yes two file transfers in the same jingle session
-
rion
it's better to not send transport-replace for multiple applications. but xep doesn't explicitly says that
-
flow
maybe we should go one step back: what makes the one party send a transport-replace while the other party still believes that the transport is still functional?
-
Zash
Guus: Make a serverside thing that keeps track?
-
rion
tcp timeouts
-
Zash
Like the MIX PAM thing
-
flow
or, to put it in a different perspective: shouldn't invovled jingle parties always assume that the other party has a good reason for sending a transport-replace and usually accept it?
-
rion
flow: I believe there are many such ambiguity cases
-
flow
I don't think we have reached the point where I see an ambiguous case, but this could very well because I don't have all the information yet
-
Guus
Thanks guys
-
jonas’
Zash, but that wouldn’t work because you don’t even get notified if you’re made member of a MUC
-
jonas’
(or the notification may get lost in the void)
-
Zash
jonas’: There's something in XEP-0045 about sending notifications for that
-
jonas’
I recall that too, but I don’t think that was for member
-
jonas’
but maybe I’m wrong
-
jonas’
in any case, my second point still holds :)
-
Zash
True
-
Zash
Something something perfect vs good enough?
-
Zash
PubSub has a thing allowing you to ask what nodes you're subscribed to
-
rion
flow: same for *-info messages. being combined for multiple applications, one of them may report unsupported-info iq error while the other accepts
-
rion
> shouldn't invovled jingle parties always assume that the other party has a good reason for sending a transport-replace and usually accept it? it break tie-breaking rules
-
rion
sorry. that's what I meant from the beginning. not out-of-order.
-
flow
rion, how can a tie-break be needed here, you wrote that "[has] not sent it yet"
-
rion
but it doesn't matter. basically any kind of IQ error combined with valid response
-
rion
flow: well it maybe not sent but prepared for sending. or sent but no iq ack yet. does it matter?
-
flow
I think a document (pastebin, gist, …) which shows the exchanged stanzas and the state of the jingle state machine would be helpful
-
flow
rion, I don't think tie break is needed if you don't sent anything yet
-
rion
if for example I spend a few second on collecting candidates, should I abandon them or just sent tie-break?
-
rion
I prefer the second
-
flow
I assume that you only need a tie break if there is a chance that the two parties send something which would require one
-
rion
yep
-
rion
that's the case.
-
flow
so if you only locally processed some data but didn't put anything on the wire yet, then there is no tie-break needed, even though you would need one if you had send the stanza
-
rion
Currently I'am trying to implement something like "convert my prepared request into response". That's weird
-
rion
for s5b/ice I'll make a candidates cache probably. That will improve performance for such cases. But if standard would forbid such ambiguity cases, that wouldn't be needed.
-
Daniel
rion: on a slightly different note: have you done any interop testing with Conversations yet? If not would you be willing to try (with me) at some point
-
rion
Daniel: tried only with Gajim so far
-
flow
rion, of course if you are the initator you could force a tie-break and overrule the responder, not sure if there are situations if this is sensible
-
rion
Daniel: does Conversations support multiple transfers in one session?
-
flow
but if I understand the initially sketched scenario correctly, then why shouldn't you simply accept the incoming transport-replace, as there is probably a good reason the other party send it
-
flow
uh, and I am also not sure if we really want to have multiple transports in a single jingle session
-
Guus
In 363, this requirement is odd to me: > Do not provide any kind of access control or security for file retrieval beyond Transport Layer Security in form of HTTPS and long random paths that are impossible to guess. That means everyone who knows the URL SHOULD be able to access it. I understand "requirements" defined in the XEP to be requirements that must be met by the specification, not by the implementation. Does this requirement try to express that the specification is defined in such a way that access control or security (beyond TLS) is not needed, or does it try to express that implementations SHOULD NOT apply additional access control / security?
-
Daniel
> Daniel: does Conversations support multiple transfers in one session? rion: no
-
flow
I always assumed that multi transports in a single jingle session is sensible if both transports are related, like audio and video
-
flow
but for file transfers, even if you are transfering the pictures of the same cat, I would have probably used different jingle sessions. But I love to hear arguments for using the same session
-
Daniel
Unfortunately the general answer to 'can Conversations do x' is usually no when it comes to jingle
-
Zash
flow: maybe sending a collection or something, tho then you could bundle them up in an archive of some sort
-
Daniel
It's probably faster
-
rion
flow: if something is not prohibited then it's allowed. Psi currently allows to select multiple files for sending and they all go into one session. then if any party adds more files to the session they will be accepted automatically without user interaction. (not tested this way though)
-
David Cridland
rion, If something isn't working we should disallow it though.
-
flow
Zash, rion: sure, but as conversation nicely demonstrates, you will have a higher probability of success if you use exactly one transport per session
-
rion
David Cridland: then we need another NS in disco
-
Daniel
The problem is that you can't signal support for that
-
David Cridland
rion, I don't think we do if it's currently unclear.
-
rion
David Cridland: I mean where multi file transfer is supported by remote :)
-
David Cridland
rion, Or we just say people should use multiple sessions and/or an archive.
-
rion
David Cridland: I'm fine with that. Who will add it to the XEP?
-
David Cridland
rion, You should be able to do the PR yourself I'd have thought?
-
rion
David Cridland: it won't be accepted anyway we regular reason - breaks compatibility
-
rion
David Cridland: new corrected xeps won't be accepted either
-
rion
there is no way to fix xmpp :)
-
Zash
Not with that attitude!
-
Daniel
Isn't jingle ft still draft?
-
Daniel
Or experimental even
-
David Cridland
Well, I'm telling you I'd have accepted it in the last Council session. Can't speak for everyone, but it seems reasonable to me.
-
David Cridland
I can certainly say it won't be accepted if there's no PR to accept.
-
rion
so guy can you bring this up on a session? then I'll be happy to make a PR if the decision will be to simplify the things.
-
rion
for now just for ft.
-
jonas’
rion, make a PR, but note that council will be re-elected today, so there’s lots of uncertainty and some delay to be expected :)
-
David Cridland
But... I'd do it for Jingle rather than just FT. Not entire sure you *could* do it for just FT. But I may be wrong, I've not looked at the detail here.
-
rion
one file transfer = one session is fine. but for rtp is not possible. and for rtp+filetransfer in one session is not clear at all
-
rion
probably it has to be stated in xep-0166 that some application types should disallow multiple contents per session for simplicity. xep-0234 should apply this rule. and review cases or errors handling when we have multiple contents in a request.
-
David Cridland
Ah, I think I understand. Yes, that makes sense. If you're transferring a file, don't do anything else with the session.
-
David Cridland
Maybe fippo might have some views on this if I incant his name.
-
flow
> rion> David Cridland: it won't be accepted anyway we regular reason - breaks compatibility Not if it is just a recommendation, which seems sensible instead of a hard requirement
-
nyco
there is something I am not sure about, can anyone (try to) explain it to me? I want to compare XMPP's MUCs to Matrix's Channels I didn't spot fundamental differences I mean the groupchat is hosted on a (home)server every participant receives the messages and the participants' server archives the message locally correct? so what is this eventually consistent replication that is sometimes presented as an advantage?
-
Zash
I wouldn't say MUC works like that
-
jonas’
> and the participants' server archives the message locally wrong
-
Zash
MIX otoh would be closer
-
jonas’
yes, but MIX isn’t eventually consistent
-
nyco
so I want to roughly understand this Matrix replication
-
Zash
> eventually consistent replication Everything is in a DAG, like git. Every event has a previous event, so you can figure out things eventually.
-
Holger
nyco: I think Matrix' main advantage is that the room's messages are linked into a history (a Git-like DAG).
-
Holger
nyco: Plus it's replicated to the servers of all participants, which may or may not be seen as an advantage depending on your trade-offs.
-
ralphm
RIght, for scalability, that latter part is not great.✎ -
ralphm
Right, for scalability, that latter part is not great. ✏
-
nyco
yeah, more storage consumption, more bandwidth use
-
nyco
is that resistent to netsplits?
-
Zash
Random message loss due to s2s failures would eventually heal
-
ralphm
yes, hence the 'eventual'
-
nyco
I mean, a Matrix channel is hosted on one homeserver, right?
-
Holger
No.
-
Zash
nyco, nit: they're called "rooms"
-
nyco
sorry
-
Zash
Every room is hosted on every participanting homeserver.
-
nyco
that would be: homeserver => bedrooms... (or toilets, maybe?) :)
-
nyco
ok, thx
-
Zash
And the DAG thing means you need merges, and that's where I stopped reading.
-
nyco
so, merge whatN
-
Zash
XMPP s2s is super easy by comparison
-
nyco
?
-
Holger
Well merges without conflict resolution.
-
nyco
merge of what with what?
-
Holger
It basically just means that an event can have multiple parents.
-
nyco
so an event in the Matrix protocol context is a message?
-
Zash
Equivalent to a stanza I suppose
-
nyco
ok, so can be a presence as well... I guess
-
nyco
(not talking about IQ, not sure there is a mechanism in Matrix protocol)
-
Holger
nyco: There's message X in the history, then a netsplit between our homeservers, then we both respond to X, someone else receives both responses and sends a message himself. This last message will have _both_ of our messages as parents in the DAG.
-
Zash
Not sure. They do have a proper separation of persistent and ephemeral events (chat states etc)
-
Zash
Not sure how that fits into the DAG thing
-
nyco
ah ok, so merges happen after netsplits?
-
Holger
Yes.
-
Holger
Or, well, they can occur simply due to normal races.
-
nyco
ouch, so there is netsplits like in IRC in Matrix???
-
Zash
XMPP s2s: Open connection, TLS, auth, send messages. Simple.
-
nyco
yes
-
David Cridland
nyco, There are in XMPP too. It's just that conversations halt on one side.
-
nyco
proof S2S is simple: I understand it... :)
-
Zash
nyco, can't avoid netsplits on the Internet
-
nyco
David Cridland indeed, I was referring to IRC-like netsplits
-
nyco
well, there is no such thing on XMPP as: half of the room is gone, because
-
David Cridland
FWIW, I think there's room for both "this chatroom exists as its own entity in a particular domain", and "we are having a group chat which doesn't formally live anywhere".
-
nyco
of course, a MUC room can totally fail if the server fails
-
Holger
You mean XMPP doesn't distribute rooms. Right.
-
David Cridland
I've never fully understood how Matrix manages chatroom permissions in a distributed manner.
-
nyco
David Cridland I got that as well, it is werid since a Matrix room has an address on a specific homeserver
-
MattJ
They are aliases
-
MattJ
The same room can have multiple different addresses
-
nyco
oh
-
David Cridland
nyco, No, that's the name of the room - they're namespaced to a domain, not controlled by it.
-
MattJ
The real room address is a long weird string that nobody would remember
-
nyco
MattJ can give examples of Matrix rooms addresses aliases?
-
MattJ
So then if you want people to join it, you give it an alias like 'xsf'
-
nyco
got it
-
MattJ
Examples here in the spec: https://www.matrix.org/docs/spec/#room-aliases
-
nyco
thx
-
MattJ
So #xsf:xmpp.org may be an alias for the same room as #xmpp-standards-foundation:jabber.org
-
nyco
their public search features gives only one alias, is it consistent? is there an alias mapping somewhere?
-
nyco
so, as a user, how do you know it is the same room?
-
MattJ
Each server keeps a mapping
-
MattJ
A jolly good question :)
-
nyco
meh
-
MattJ
Their #matrix:matrix.org room has actually moved a large number of times
-
nyco
uniqueness and human-readability
-
nyco
well... "meh" again
-
Zash
David Cridland, I wouldn't be suprised if distributed permissions are handled through the fact that there's so far only a single server implementation with any real deployment.
-
MattJ
Like the time there was a bug in their DAG merge algorithm, and someone took over the room by injecting a room creation event that got preferred over the authentic room creation event
-
MattJ
So all the servers accepted this as fact, and they lost control of their primary discussion channel
-
Zash
This reminds me of IRC netsplit merge algorithms
-
nyco
wow...
-
MattJ
But they fixed the bug, created a new room, and redirected the alias to their new room
-
MattJ
Other upgrades and bug fixes in the protocol have required them to recreate rooms
-
Zash
Is that what room versions are?
-
Zash
Do they have as many room versions as we have groupchat protocols yet?
-
MattJ
Yeah, rooms have versions, they can be upgraded, which I think creates a new room, I'm not sure
-
MattJ
It's an interesting model, and it solves some problems for some use cases, but I still prefer the simplicity of XMPP
-
MattJ
and nobody >5 years ago would have once thought us defending XMPP on the grounds of simplicity ;)
-
Zash
It does go further into the "complicated servers, simple clients" direction tho
-
MattJ
Yeah
-
Zash
I've seen an internal client that's basically just a few lines of jQuery
-
nyco
> and nobody >5 years ago would have once thought us defending XMPP on the grounds of simplicity ;) muhahahaha
-
nyco
> I've seen an internal client that's basically just a few lines of jQuery because their C2S "protocol" is a basic RESTful-like API?
-
Zash
nyco: Yes
-
Zash
Fairly simple RESTful BOSH+MAM like thing
-
nyco
yeah, on MongooseIM we had also created a very basic and minimalistic REST-like API iOS and Android clients could be developed very rapidly
-
Zash
While the s2s protocol has distributed transactions and DAGs and merges and whatnot
-
ralphm
Lance did something similar, it is not hard, per se, but a trade-off, as you are also limiting what kind of interactions you have.
-
nyco
exactly
-
nyco
on a C2S API, you would have to map the entire XMPP protocol
-
Zash
XMPP-FTW?
-
nyco
so I guess Matrix's VoIP signalling is just another event/message, right? then it goes RTP like SIP, Jingle, etc.
-
Zash
nyco, WebRTC.
-
Zash
Conferencing is literally Jitsi Meet in an <iframe>
-
Zash
Dunno what the 1-to-1 calls are tho
-
nyco
ok... I was not sure
-
nyco
Slack uses Jitsi Meet as well? HipChat used to do so
-
Zash
And Jitsi Meet embeds Prosody! 😀
-
nyco
so Matrix has XMPP in their core :)
-
nyco
MatriXMPP
-
nyco
ok, thx all! :)
-
Guus
Jitsi meet uses XMPP internally
-
nyco
so yeah, what's that part? MUCs?
-
Zash
MUC. LDAP authentication.
-
nyco
thx
-
Zash
https://github.com/jitsi/docker-jitsi-meet#architecture might be a good starting point if you wanna look closer
-
nyco
thx
-
pep.
"Guus> In 363, this requirement is odd to me", I would assume the latter? an implementation should not add additional access control? that is, you get the url you should be able to access the thing behind(?)
-
Guus
pep. I had someone ask me if we could add additional security checks. I'm wondering if that requirement allows for that.
-
Guus
Like I said - I think this 'requirements' are supposed to be requirements for the protocol design, not the implementation based on the XEP - but it'd be good to have clarity.
-
pep.
Generally the url is the password. It has enough entropy that it's not guessable. I agree though that SHOULD NOT could be relaxed. It doesn't entirely make sense in private setups
-
Guus
Again - if the 'requirements' are reflective of the protocol, not the implementation, then there's no issue.
-
pep.
I don't understand
-
Guus
These are two different things: - The protocol defined in this document must be designed in such a way that implementations/deployments need not add additional security checks if they feel that using an URL with enough entropy is safe enough - It is illegal for implementations to add more security checks other than the unguessable URL.
-
Guus
("illegal" is probably a bit stronger than the 'SHOULD' that's in the actual XEP, but I was trying to illustrate the point here)
-
pep.
I see
-
pep.
dunn othen✎ -
pep.
dunno then ✏
-
Guus
Board meeting time/
-
Guus
ah, yes.
-
Guus
nice.
- ralphm bangs gavel
-
ralphm
0. Welcome + Agenda
-
ralphm
Welcome to the last Board meeting of this term!
-
Guus
Seve mentioned that he might not make todays meeting.
-
ralphm
I think we can do this fast.
-
ralphm
Indeed
-
ralphm
nyco, MattJ?
-
nyco
yep
-
MattJ
Here
-
ralphm
1. Minute taker
-
nyco
me
-
ralphm
yay
-
nyco
but please do help me
-
ralphm
2. License for website content
-
ralphm
If I remember correctly, and this was a *long* time ago, the idea was that everything on the website was beholden to our IPR policy, which would mean MIT.
-
nyco
ah, that would be clear
-
ralphm
I'd like to note that initially there was a CC license for this, but it got changed to MIT to make it easier to embed XEPs into software projects (see the changelog)
-
nyco
https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/6E9JDfCF5L-XSF-Board-Meeting-2019-11-21
-
ralphm
but Peter would probably know more about this.
-
Guus
https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/407 calls for _a_ license to be denoted.
-
Guus
Is this is ment to be under MIT, lets add MIT
-
ralphm
In any case, I think this does merit better clarity.
-
ralphm
Let's check with Peter and then have next Board make a decision soon?
-
MattJ
wfm
-
Guus
ok
-
ralphm
(because the wording of the IPR Policy isn't clear on this either)
-
pep.
Who is actionable for this?
-
Guus
(pinging stpeter ...)
-
pep.
badly worded
-
ralphm
pep. I'll ask Peter, and then next Board.
-
pep.
Thanks
-
ralphm
3. Task Boards
-
ralphm
Item by nyco on the use of Trello instead of free software alternatives.
-
pep.
I guess this can move to next board?
-
ralphm
I'm not in favour of changing things around just because of this, to be honest.
-
nyco
yep, since Trello is proprietary SaaS, we are more and more relying on it
-
Guus
I'm sympathetic, but I'm seeing benefit in using a SaaS project if that means not adding additional tasks to iteam.
-
MattJ
I share the sentiment around Trello (I'm not a fan, and there are plenty of decent open alternatives)
-
pep.
Guus, this way, we do nothing, everything is additional things to other people..
-
MattJ
But a FOSS solution would require someone to host it, and that's pretty much the same difference to me
-
ralphm
The core XMPP standards with the IETF are open, and so are our XEPs, but this doesn't mean that everything the XSF is involved in requires the avoidance of proprietary solutions.
-
MattJ
Unless we run it ourselves, which as iteam lead I would veto :)
-
MattJ
For now at least
-
nyco
why veto as iTeam?
-
Guus
Maybe you're not on board after tonight, and have all the time of the world, MattJ 😉
-
MattJ
nyco, because iteam is currently in no state to run additional services
-
ralphm
And iteam is spread a bit thin already
-
nyco
clear
-
MattJ
Have you seen the wiki recently? :)
-
Zash
The who has to interact with it should decide what to use.
-
nyco
I edit the wiki, so yes, why?
-
MattJ
(off-topic, but Zash put some time into trying to upgrade the wiki recently)
-
nyco
oh about obsolete version? yes
-
nyco
ok then
-
Guus
So we're voting against mandating the abandonment of Trello?
-
nyco
looks like we don't have a consensus to move out of Trello, and iTeam is limited capacity
-
pep.
Otherwise.. there's the mailing list :)
-
MattJ
In the future maybe we can improve iteam and host some more services ourselves where it makes sense, but right now it's not even worth considering
-
nyco
ok
-
ralphm
We could have a broader discussion on this in the future, e.g. on how to make sure we have resources to work for infrastructure, including possibly funding that work, but this doesn't seem the time. I believe MattJ is also still working on his inventory.
-
nyco
ok
-
nyco
no need to vote then?
-
ralphm
I don't think so.
-
ralphm
4. Other items on the trello board
-
nyco
badge, adopt character?
-
ralphm
I think all of these are either waiting for feedback, or should be handled by the next board anyway.
-
Guus
why put off the adopt a character thing?
-
nyco
put off?
-
Guus
put off discussing it now.
-
nyco
oh
-
ralphm
From what I remember we said we wanted to do it, but then I am unsure what the next step was going to be.
-
nyco
we chose one, the process was not clear
-
nyco
then we pay, then what do we use it for?
-
Zash
Marketing marketing marketing?
-
Guus
There wasn't a next step, which is what we could discuss now 🙂
-
nyco
what about marketing marketing marketing?
-
Seve
Deciding for a specific character is where we are now
-
nyco
yes, let's discuss the adoption
-
Guus
I don't think we need to do anything with it, other than knowing that we're supporting the Unicode consortium with it.
-
nyco
again, could be fun to say out loud we adopted this character
-
ralphm
Ok, so I need to dig up which character we settled on (one of the speech bubbly ones) and then do it.
-
ralphm
Of course the comms team can then have their field day with it.
-
Guus
did we decide to do this? And if so, what level? If we, as board, decide on that, we can put the question of "what character" to memberhsip.
-
nyco
field day?
-
ralphm
nyco, look it up
-
nyco
look it up?
-
nyco
Guus I remember something like we kind of were reluction to take time and energy for such a vote, high effort
-
ralphm
nyco: https://lmgtfy.com/?q=having+a+field+day
-
Guus
I'm happy for commsteam to pick one.
-
Guus
I'm just not sure if we actually decided on doing this.
-
Guus
and if so, for what level.
-
Seve
I remember we said yes, only discussing which chatacter to pick
-
ralphm
I believe we did have consensus in an earlier meeting, I just need to find it in the logs.
-
nyco
CommTeam, not commsteam, could be taken for "Comm Steam" :)
-
ralphm
nyco: whatever, again
-
nyco
which is not wrong, btw :)
-
ralphm
I'll try hunt it down in the logs.
-
Guus
ok, assuming we did indeed agree to this: shall we have the communication / stream team pick one?
-
nyco
stream... OMG :)
-
ralphm
Guus: I think we already picked one
-
ralphm
so I'll look up which one
-
nyco
thx ralphm
-
ralphm
5. AOB
-
Guus
Ok - so lets ask the treasurer to pay for it?
-
Guus
and be done?
-
ralphm
Naturally
-
ralphm
Any AOB?
-
Guus
cool.
-
MattJ
None here
-
Guus
AOB: it was my pleasure serving this year
-
ralphm
Yay!
-
nyco
oh yeah, bye all! :) thx for this term!
-
ralphm
I'd like to thank you all for this term!
-
MattJ
Yes, thanks :)
-
Zash
Thanks yall
-
Ge0rG
Thank you, dear Board
-
ralphm
6. Date of Next
-
ralphm
I'm suggesting to keep this timeslot for at least the next meeting, to do a proper handover.
-
Guus
Ge0rG you somehow make it sound as if you're now taking us out back to get put down 😉
-
ralphm
So, +1W
-
nyco
+1
-
Guus
+1w wfm
-
ralphm
7. Close
-
ralphm
Thanks, all!
- ralphm bangs gavel
-
Ge0rG
Guus: sorry, I don't understand
-
Guus
nevermind, my mind wonders and has to many movie references in it.
-
ralphm
Oh, and if you can, please join Alex at 19:00 UTC in this same venue!
-
Guus
I actually cannot 😞
-
Guus
maybe from mobile, but unlikely.
-
Ge0rG
I'll try from mobile
-
nyco
https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/6E9JDfCF5L-XSF-Board-Meeting-2019-11-21 please review, edit, correct, fill, etc.
-
ralphm
Thanks nyco
-
Alex
👍
-
Guus
nyco added one reasoning, otherwise lgtm
-
nyco
thx!
-
Zash
Re Trello; if that's the way to communicate with Board then I'm kinda sceptical. If it's an internal tool for Board themselves then they can agree on whatever.
-
nyco
I'll send it in 10 min, so you all still have time to review :)
-
nyco
Trello is not only for the Board, SCAM as well, and maybe CommTeam
-
nyco
dunno about iTeam
-
nyco
and yeah the tool is not critical
-
MattJ
Zash, it's not for communication with Board, I don't think non-Board have access to it
-
nyco
yes, it's fully open
-
nyco
huh...
-
ralphm
board can be contacted here or on board@xmpp.org, or info@xmpp.org for more general stuff
-
nyco
let me check
-
ralphm
Our meeting board is 664.
-
Seve
None
-
nyco
> Our meeting board is 664. exactly
-
nyco
Zash anyway, anyone (I guess) can ping the board
-
nyco
there is just not an unique/official way
-
nyco
I send the minutes
-
Guus
tx
-
pep.
Thanks for the minutes
-
pep.
nyco, I chose trello for SCAM because board was using it, but yes I'm also in favor of changing to something more free :)
-
pep.
board@xmpp.org is not public though..
-
Zash
Not used tho, they meet here
-
pep.
I mean the list
-
Zash
Oh, ah
-
moparisthebest
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenbergjennings-dispatch-ripp-03 looks like we are a little behind here, need draft for XMPP over http/3
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: you got it backwards. We need to update XEP-0332 to HTTP/3
-
rion
regarding "Direct messages SHOULD be used over PMs in non-anonymous rooms". What benefits does it bring? When it's muc private chat (with muc private jid) everything is quite clear - logic is fully the same as in anonymous room but we can draw a button like "add to roster" But when we use real jid instead for muc private it's like communication with any other contact not from roster: - presences do not work - pubsub doesn't work - we have invent something borrow status,vcard,whatever from muc.
-
MattJ
You could draw the line based on whether the contacts are in the roster or not
-
MattJ
Pidgin does this iirc
-
Ge0rG
rion: it reduces user confusion: you shouldn't have two different chat windows to the same person
-
MattJ
The only time I suggest Pidgin may be doing the right thing...
-
Zash
Directed presence could be used as a kind of temporary subscription
-
Ge0rG
what's wrong with _not_ having avatar and presence in that window?
-
Ge0rG
rion: MUC-PMs are not very reliable
-
Ge0rG
if you are offline, or your friend is offline, or only one of their clients is offline...
-
Ge0rG
"why did I see your message on my PC, but not on my mobile? also why was it in a new window?"
-
Daniel
Why do I see message three times?
-
Daniel
Why do I (not) see my own messages
-
Zash
Why is it in the same chat view as the group messages and why did I just reply in public
-
Ge0rG
That PR was guided by an impulse that was ignited by biboumi, because on IRC it doesn't even make _any_ sense to have PM routing
-
Zash
Why did you reply from a different JID?
-
Ge0rG
What's a JID?
-
Guus
"Can you use Whatsapp please?"
- Guus ducks, runs
- Ge0rG ,oO( if it ducks like a duck... )
-
rion
well I'd prefer to switch to real jid when the contact is already in roster.
-
pep.
Isn't that what the change says?
-
pep.
Hmm it doesn't say roster
-
wurstsalat
wanted to ask what Kev meant in the vote by commenting "(this breaks things)"
-
Kev
I think I said more about this at the time, and intended to say more on-list once Ge0rG starts the discussion there.
-
Ge0rG
I'm still sorry.
-
Kev
But it may be that clients can talk only through the room, and that direct messages will fail.
-
Kev
Ge0rG: No need to be sorry.
-
Kev
e.g. it may be that a user only allows incoming messages from JIDs for which they have exchanged presence.
-
Ge0rG
Those users are broken.
-
Alex
hey guys, anyone ready for our annual meeting?
-
jonas’
yes
-
jonas’
hi Alex :)
-
Alex
Hi jonas
-
Zash
Hey
-
mathieui
yes, hi Alex
-
Ge0rG
Oh, it's the time already!
-
Alex
lets give the rest of the crew 2 or 3 more minutes to wake up ;-)
-
Ge0rG
I was still feeling like CEST
-
Alex
ya, prime time
-
David Cridland
EVening all.
-
Alex
okay, lets start
- Alex bangs the gavel
-
Alex
here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2019-11-21
-
Alex
1) Call for Quorum
-
Alex
as you can see 39 members voted via proxy, so we have a quorum
-
Alex
2) Items Subject to a Vote
-
Ge0rG
There is a typo in the agenda: > Board and Election,
-
Alex
Board and Council elections, you can see the appications here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2019
-
Alex
fixing the typo now
-
jonas’
(relevant gif for "bangs the gavel": https://external-preview.redd.it/7P3i0dah8goJXU7BfsdKkF2SthYeoF6Pq6xeEi8H1kc.gif?width=440&height=230.366492147&s=04324486f65cbb7ff2b0ed265caafd552bc6546d )
-
Alex
🤣
-
Alex
3) Opportunity for XSF members to Vote in the Meeting
-
Alex
anyone here who has not voted via proxy yet?
-
Alex
looks like there are none
-
Alex
then I will shutdown the bot and start working on the results
-
David Cridland
While Alex carefully counts the votes, who do we have present?
- jonas’
- Zash ←
- mathieui
- Ge0rG
-
David Cridland
I was mostly wondering if my scare-mongering earlier caused a bit more attendance. :-)
-
larma
/me
-
stpeter
I'm sort of here. :-)
-
Ge0rG
larma: you are missing the trailing space, aren't you?
-
Link Mauve
/me✎ - Link Mauve
-
jonas’
stpeter, thanks for the clarification about trademark things earlier
-
larma
Ge0rG, works without for me 😀
-
mathieui
larma, that’s not XEP-compliant!
-
Zash
The XEP clearly says that it must be the 4 characters '/', 'm', 'e' and ' '
-
stpeter
jonas’ - my pleasure (I mostly respond to GitHub pings, obviously)
-
jonas’
result-ish things
-
larma
Zash, I can still do without, I also tend to use /me inside a sentence
-
Alex
4) Announcement of Voting Results
-
David Cridland
jonas’, Your Refresh-Fu is mighty.
-
Alex
are you ready?
- jonas’ drumrolls
- mathieui drumrolls more
-
Alex
when you refresh the page at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2019-11-21#Announcement_of_Voting_Results you can see the results
-
David Cridland
Well, that's fun. Maybe I should have actually voted for myself. :-)
-
Zash
dun dun DUN!
-
jonas’
fun
-
jonas’
congrats everyone
-
jonas’
this is going to be a fun round of things
-
Alex
top 5 for counsil are: Georg Lukas Daniel Gultsch Jonas Schäfer Kim Alvefur Dave Cridland
-
jonas’
is board also fixed at 5 members?
-
Link Mauve
Wow, congrats everyone!
-
David Cridland
jonas’, It is.
-
Zash
Woop
-
larma
Alex, I think you should remove the "No" column, as no Yes is not the same as a No
-
jonas’
ah, I could’ve inferred that if I was able to count
-
jonas’
larma, I was thinking the same thing earlier
-
Alex
Top 5 for board is: Matthew Wild Guus der Kinderen Ralph Meijer Severino Ferrer de la Peñita Maxime Buquet
-
Alex
congrats to everyone
-
stpeter
jonas’ - in the far past we had boards with more people, but then we settled on 5
-
Ge0rG
If it's not the same, they aren't redundant, are they?
-
mathieui
congrats to the new board!
-
stpeter
Voting was difficult this time - so many good candidates!
-
Alex
and thanks to everyone who applied and did not make it this time as well
-
jonas’
stpeter, agreed
-
David Cridland
Alex, Most of all, thanks to you for running the election once again.
-
Alex
stpeter, agreed. Was recasting and chaning my mind a couple of times ;-)
-
Zash
Thanks Alex!
-
jonas’
+1 Zash
-
Ge0rG
Congratulations to the winners and thanks for your trust!
-
stpeter
+2
-
mathieui
oh congrats to new council as well, I missed that message
-
stpeter
Alex should get an award of some kind. :-)
-
jonas’
he should
-
David Cridland
For Board, I spent ages picking, and once I'd finally cast my vote realised I hadn't voted for myself.
-
mathieui
+3
-
Ge0rG
An xmpp badge!
-
David Cridland
So yeah, lots of very good candidates.
-
Alex
stpeter, I got, last year in brussels
-
Alex
the famous hat
-
Ge0rG
David Cridland: it would've been very interesting if you had ended up on both top 5 lists
-
Ge0rG
Alex: The ~taking~ voting hat?✎ -
Ge0rG
Alex: The ~talking~ voting hat? ✏
-
David Cridland
Ge0rG, Dont it before, it's not a lot of fun, so I'm quite glad I didn't this time aorund.✎ -
David Cridland
Ge0rG, Done it before, it's not a lot of fun, so I'm quite glad I didn't this time around. ✏
-
mathieui
yeah, that sounds like a lot of work to be in both
-
David Cridland
Ge0rG, Of course, it's a little disappointing not to be voted in, so mixed feelings.
-
jonas’
shall we agree on a time for a first meeting real quick, David Cridland, Ge0rG and Zash? (I’m trying to summon daniel)
-
Alex
The famous Jabber hat, someone may have a picture of that
-
Alex
5) Any other Business?
-
David Cridland
jonas’, After the meeting, sure.
-
jonas’
David Cridland, wfm
-
Ge0rG
Is that allowed? I was under the impression that you have to decide on one, which is rather political considering that by that time you know who gets shifted into either list
-
jonas’
Alex, none from me
-
David Cridland
Alex, Tempting as it is to propose some arcane motion, none from me either.
-
Ge0rG
Alex: I had some controversial ideas regarding the start of a new council / board period, but was too lazy to make a text proposal for bylaws
-
Alex
6) Formal Adjournment
-
David Cridland
Alex, Once again, thanks very much.
-
Alex
I motion that we adjourn
-
Zash
+1
-
jonas’
+1
- Alex bangs the gavel
-
jonas’
Thanks for doing the things with the numbers and stuff, Alex
-
Alex
thanks everyone
-
Ge0rG
Thanks Alex
-
jonas’
David Cridland, Ge0rG, Zash, Daniel, usual time, usual place worksforme.
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: I suggest the same
-
jonas’
(being 16:00Z xmpp:council@muc.xmpp.org)✎ -
jonas’
(being Wed 16:00Z xmpp:council@muc.xmpp.org) ✏
-
Zash
wfm
-
David Cridland
That's fine by me.
-
Ge0rG
David Cridland: with you being a very close sixth, we of course expect you to move forward with your board ideas by proposing them to the elected board!
-
David Cridland
Ge0rG, And then running away and not helping? Traditional...
-
Alex
LOL
-
Ge0rG
David Cridland: isn't that how everything works?
-
Ge0rG
(okay, maybe "work" is not an adequate term in all of its meanings)
-
David Cridland
Ge0rG, Sadly. But no, I'll put together a concrete proposal for the conferences stuff. Looking around at improving our discussion of public record is a little harder - that's a lot of work to do without any likelihood of it going anywhere.
-
stpeter
David Cridland: what do you have in mind for "our discussion of public record"?
-
Guus
Hello everyone. I managed to miss the meeting almost exactly. Thanks for getting it all organized once again, Alex!
-
David Cridland
stpeter, I don't have anything in particular, but discussion about XEPs etc are fragmented across Github, the mailing list, and here (at least).
-
David Cridland
stpeter, Makes it very hard to track as a Council person, and feels very cliquey I suspect as a newcomer.
-
jonas’
FTR, editors try to force technical discussions away from github
-
stpeter
ah
-
jonas’
but that doesn’t solve the chat issue indeed
-
jonas’
Ok, I have to leave now, you can ping me if the usual time doesn’t work for anyone, I’m rather flexible.
-
David Cridland
jonas’, Yeah, and I'm not sure we should be "banning" discussion in chatrooms. Seems very ironic.
-
jonas’
David Cridland, indeed
-
stpeter
We're not the only ones feeling the tension here - I've seen this in W3C and IETF, too.
-
David Cridland
stpeter, For sure. Had lengthy chats with Joe Hildebrand a while back about this. It's not helped by the likes of Google making traditional mailing lists difficult from both a UX and technical perspective.
-
Zash
I hope I've made it clear that I don't think an account at some non-federated service should be required for participantion. 🙂
-
David Cridland
Zash, Absolutely not. But equally, I have very few answers at the moment, just noting problems.
-
moparisthebest
if you are talking about DKIM etc, the mailing list just needs configured correctly
-
moparisthebest
I'm not sure if the XSF's are or not at this moment
-
Zash
Hm?
-
Zash
I thought it was about the discussions being spread out over various places and hard to find
-
moparisthebest
I was responding to "It's not helped by the likes of Google making traditional mailing lists difficult from both a UX and technical perspective."
-
Zash
We need in-reply-to !
-
David Cridland
moparisthebest, No - DKIM deliberately breaks mailing lists, so you have to configure them incorrectly. But it's more that the average developer is unlikely to have come across a mailing list before, and Gmail et al don't offer any support for them, so they're pretty arcane to use.
-
Ge0rG
Also it would be great to be able to tag certain things as "belongs to XEP 45", after the discussion took place
-
moparisthebest
yea, XSF mailing lists do break DKIM, they should stop doing that
-
Ge0rG
Maybe we need XSF Wave?
-
stpeter
niiice
-
Zash
MUC full-text search?
-
Ge0rG
Zash: and XEP tags as reactions?
-
Zash
We do have archives that go way back (modulo disk crash loss)
-
Ge0rG
...for whole threads
-
David Cridland
moparisthebest, Seriously, it's the other way around. DKIM was created by Google, Facebook, etc without regard to mailing lists (and if they thought about them at all, it was in order to break them).
-
jonas’
moparisthebest, no, David Cridland has got it right ;)
-
jonas’
I was under the impression that DKIM was created by Amazon, Paypal etc (transactional mail users) without regard for any type of non-transactional mail though
-
Zash
and Yahoo?
-
moparisthebest
here's just the first result for a search about how to fix mailing lists https://begriffs.com/posts/2018-09-18-dmarc-mailing-list.html
-
jonas’
moparisthebest, but that breaks mailing lists
-
moparisthebest
all decently modern MTAs support all those things, so mailing lists won't be broken in any way
-
moparisthebest
I mean I can complain about how IP isn't a crypto-routed authenticated encrypted protocol by default, and refuse to use IP until google fixes it
-
moparisthebest
or I can just bite the bullet and use IP as-is
-
waqas
Didn't modern Mailman default to 'STRIP_DKIM_SIGNATURE = Yes'?
-
moparisthebest
fix the mailing list already, DKIM/DMARC is never going away
-
David Cridland
It's all a moot point anyway - my point was more than the UX sucks for most people.
-
Zash
Everything is terrible, news at 11
-
moparisthebest
right UX is a different discussion
-
moparisthebest
but it'd be nice if the XSF mailing list actually delivered mail reliably to people
-
moparisthebest
seems like a bad tradeoff for adding this at the bottom of each mail: Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: Standards-unsubscribe@xmpp.org
-
moparisthebest
isn't that useless?
-
moparisthebest
useless because https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2369 and https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2919 have been around about as long as XMPP that is
-
David Cridland
moparisthebest, And 90% of MUAs people actually use don't support them. :-/
-
stpeter
I have no objections to removing the footer, especially on the standards@ list (it can be useful for lists where less technical people subscribe).
-
moparisthebest
David Cridland, I would have imagined 90% of MUAs is just gmail, and they support it ?
-
moparisthebest
actually now I'm curious which don't support it
-
David Cridland
moparisthebest, 2369 isn't supported by Gmail, isn it? I think 2919 is, but only in as much as Google filters based on it automatically.
-
moparisthebest
David Cridland, https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126?hl=en
-
David Cridland
In any case, mailing lists, and email in general, is not ideal.
-
moparisthebest
that's support for 2369 List-Unsubscribe
-
David Cridland
AH, that's RFC 8058, which I'd never even seen before.
-
pep.
"David Cridland> Of course, it's a little disappointing not to be voted in, so mixed feelings.", I agree. I was seeing you in at least one of them
-
pep.
Wait you are, I didn't interpret your message correctly :p
-
moparisthebest
ah indeed, I was just searching List-Unsubscribe, wonder what the difference is...
-
David Cridland
pep., Oh, I'm on Council still. Just!
-
David Cridland
pep., But not Board.
-
moparisthebest
oh, 8058 seems to just be "2369 List-Unsubscribe except do it with a single click instead of a confirmation page" ?
-
moparisthebest
this is about a year old https://litmus.com/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-list-unsubscribe if it's accurate, iOS Mail, gmail, outlook.com, and yahoo all support List-Unsubscribe as a mailto, like we have in our DKIM breaking footer
-
pep.
So hmm, board keeps the same meeting dates I guess? Nothing was mentioned
-
Ge0rG
pep.: it's up to new board to decide
-
pep.
I know, it's just almost the same as last time and nobody said anything.
-
pep.
I'm curious.
-
Ge0rG
pep.: you might say whether the usual time works for you and then just see what happens