XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2020-01-01


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  618. dwd Daniel, Not an elaborate joke. It's trying to provide a safe middle ground between "Stuff JSON in <body/>" and "Write your own extension", and the need is based very firmly on evidence from multiple cases of people outside this community trying to use our product and failing.
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  620. dwd Daniel, So yeah, it sucks, but it sucks less than what people do now.
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  622. pep. dwd, isn't the answer "teach these devs that XML is extensible"?
  623. dwd pep., How?
  624. pep. I don't know, just say that
  625. pep. "XML is extensible"
  626. dwd pep., Genuine question. Because whatever we're doing now isn't working. Most of the examples I've been told are in confidence, but I can be quite open about how my employer used (and misused) XMPP before I came along.
  627. pep. I really don't see the point of this XEP
  628. pep. Maybe what we need is dev docs, not weird extensions
  629. dwd pep., Did you read the thread between me and Marvin?
  630. pep. yes
  631. pep. (admittedly I'm still a walking zombie from CCC-induced sleep depravation)
  632. lovetox dwd, your argument was, xmpp libs provide set_body() set_subject(), but not set_my_random_extension()
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  634. lovetox correct me if im wrong
  635. dwd pep., OK. I can assure you that the folks who worked on our app aren't stupid, do read docs, and so on. But they also thought the simplest and fastest way to get custom messages into XMPP was to stuff JSON into the body tag.
  636. dwd lovetox, Not quite. My argument was that people do this stuff. My proposed solution is that we give them a very very low friction path to doing something slightly less sucky.
  637. pep. dwd, and you assume they'll find this new XEP just like they found the hundreds of others that were using custom elements? :)
  638. lovetox pep. they find the docs of the xmpp libs
  639. lovetox and the xmpp lib, provides, set_custom_json_payload
  640. lovetox or something
  641. dwd pep, Nope, which is why I think that for success, it needs to be a recognisable API in libraries.
  642. lovetox because it implements the xep
  643. dwd lovetox, That, yes.
  644. pep. Well you can have a library provide this API without actually having a XEP for it. It's all non-standard anyway
  645. dwd pep., But the library's implementation needs to be interoperable with another's.
  646. lovetox i understand what you are trying to say, but this seems all very werid, we seem to talk about developers that totally ignore what xml is and how it can be used
  647. dwd lovetox, Yes. Exactly.
  648. lovetox and there is no xmpp lib in the world that does not have a api to add a node under body
  649. dwd lovetox, Give me 100 developers, and we'll find maybe one that understands basic XML.
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  652. lovetox not under body, under message i meant
  653. lovetox really? ok im not in the software dev industry, so i dont have experience what devs know usually
  654. dwd lovetox, Sure, we could stuff in a generic element maybe. Though the API radically changes between libraries, and listening for it would also change.
  655. dwd lovetox, Developers tend to understand JSON - they get the exposure. Very few people use XML these days.
  656. lovetox ah, yeah thats a better point :)
  657. lovetox so basically you could use these libs and xmpp, without knowing a single thing about xml
  658. dwd lovetox, Yeah, that's the idea.
  659. dwd lovetox, You can already, mind, it's just that for these custom cases you tend to make design choices that suck later.
  660. dwd lovetox, Like we did. ALso other cases that I know you've heard of but I was told in confidence.
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  663. Lance I remember quite clearly my experience first building things in XMPP. I stuffed json payloads in messages because I could do _that_ in the first days before really figuring out what exactly an IQ stanza is, etc. And even more, I could use my existing IM client as a 'console' of sorts to act as a REPL without needing to build something custom.
  664. lovetox yeah i understand, if they want to extend xmpp, they suddenly need someone who knows his shit about xmpp
  665. dwd lovetox, Oh, no. It's worse than that.
  666. lovetox for us its quite natural to just add a node under message and say we extended with a custom element
  667. dwd lovetox, They extend XMPP just fine, but they do so in a way that isn't sustainable.
  668. lovetox but coming with no expierience, i wouldnt know if this is allowed, i would need to read the xmpp standard
  669. dwd lovetox, RIght - anyone who ever reads that XEP is not the target audience for the API. :-)
  670. lovetox yeah gottcha :)
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  672. pep. dwd, do you actually need library compatibility? I mean, why not, but this proprietary protocol that unknowing devs created would probably be used only internally. If they want to expose that then maybe they'd think twice.
  673. pep. I thought I was thinking application devs shouldn't be required XMPP knowledge, but maybe it's time for me to revisit the idea. This XEP just feels wrong
  674. dwd pep., Library compatibility for UDT? Sure. We use two entirely different XMPP libs in our case - Smack and XMPPFramework. If these don't provide a similarish API to do this then people will just carry on what they're doing - stuffing JSON into body and wrecking the extensibility.
  675. dwd pep., I mean, you could also do a meta-extension like Marvin suggests, but I think that's harder to specify, and you definitely couldn't do XPath.
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  678. dwd pep., Oh, and the XEP *is* wrong. For you, for me, and for anyone else that reads it.
  679. pep. Also, why only JSON
  680. pep. What about all other serialization formats
  681. pep. Do I need to define another udt
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  684. lovetox i think json is just an example
  685. Daniel Isn't the problem that libraries don't make it easy and obvious how to create extensions?
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  688. Daniel For example I find babbler does a good job and explaining fairly early on in its documentation how to do that
  689. Daniel And if the xeps goal is to change libraries. Can we not just have them do that
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  698. lovetox yes if every library adds a set_custom_extension() method, this would serv the same purpose
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  700. lovetox but libs tend to implement XEPs
  701. lovetox but yeah actually no lib that i know has this
  702. pep. Slixmpp allows the user to define new extensions by using classes. Might not be perfect and possibly confusing, but that's one way to do it
  703. pep. (Well, sleekxmpp allowed*)
  704. lovetox funny, im using a xmpp lib, and it gives me no method or api to Extend the extensible protocol
  705. lovetox only XML api
  706. lovetox and i use a xmpp lib to abstract the XML stuff away in the first place
  707. dwd FWIW, later work on our codebase added custom XML elements. This stuff can be done (and I like the way Sl*XMPP does in=t in Python myself).
  708. dwd Oh, UDT picks JSON because that'd cover everyone. Anyone who feels strongly enough to do something other than JSON would be willing to dig into the library and extend it properly.
  709. pep. "JSON is good for everyone"
  710. pep. "JSON is enough for everyone"
  711. pep. Careful not to copy bill gates too much.
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