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jonas’
moparisthebest, Daniel just needs to vote "on-list"
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Holger
Ge0rG: XEP-0280 #6.1 now says: > A <message/> is is eligible for carbons [...] if [...] it contains payload elements typically used in IM ... and then mentions Delivery Receipts and CSN. I guess those two are meant to be examples rather than an exhaustive list? Then again, not having a definitive list might reduce the value of the guarantee #6.2 is trying to give for carbons:rules:0, no?
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Holger
Apart from that, I guess this rule should mention that it still only applies to type={chat,normal}?
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Daniel
we should really follow up on im routing 2
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jonas’
Daniel, implementations are where it’s at at the moment, I think
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Ge0rG
Holger [12:22]: > ... and then mentions Delivery Receipts and CSN. I guess those two are meant to be examples rather than an exhaustive list? Then again, not having a definitive list might reduce the value of the guarantee #6.2 is trying to give for carbons:rules:0, no? You are right in those points. I'd love to have an exhaustive list of "IM payloads", but that means significant effort to compile it
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Ge0rG
Holger [12:23]: > Apart from that, I guess this rule should mention that it still only applies to type={chat,normal}? I'm not 100% sure on that.
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Daniel
are there any known problems with im routing ng?
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dwd
Daniel, No, although that's primary because nobody's tried to implement it yet AFAIK.✎ -
jonas’
I think I sent some feedback to the list, not sure if that was addressed. but it’s all theoretical at the moment
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dwd
Daniel, No, although that's primarily because nobody's tried to implement it yet AFAIK. ✏
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Daniel
it seems way easier than adding to an endless list of rules and exceptions to carbons
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Daniel
or maybe i'm missing something…
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jonas’
it’s still a bit unclear how IM Routing 2.0 and non-2.0 domains interact
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Holger
Ge0rG: I guess clients don't really want to receive carbons of outgoing 0184 receipts?
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jonas’
I’m not sure about that
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dwd
Holger, They don't?
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Holger
*requests*
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Holger
Dammit.
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jonas’
ah, requests makes sense
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Holger
Sorry.
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Daniel
well requests are tied to actual messages?
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dwd
Still not sure I understand.
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Holger
Ah.
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Daniel
and they are getting those anyway?
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dwd
(What Daniel says)
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Holger
Yeah, ignore me, thx.
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dwd
We could, of course, just drop a "<traditional-im xmlns='...' this-message-is-for-im='boolean/>" into every message.
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Daniel
i'm not sure what i would do with copies of outgoing receipts though
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Daniel
but in the interest of making things simplier on the server i'd just ignore them
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Holger
Yeah I can't think of a use-case either but I'd prefer to avoid even more special-casing unless there's a strong reason to do so.
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Ge0rG
Daniel: copies of outgoing receipts tell you that you don't need to send a receipt any more
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Holger
Ge0rG: You're not sure whether type={chat,normal} needs mentioning or whether the rule should only apply to those? Dunno about headline but you certainly don't want to apply the rule to groupchat, no?
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Ge0rG
Daniel: I'm using that in MAM sync to reduce the number of receipts to send after sync
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Ge0rG
Holger: message types are a mess
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Ge0rG
Holger: I agree on groupchat though, and I suppose we need to make headline ephemeral+no-store
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Daniel
> it’s still a bit unclear how IM Routing 2.0 and non-2.0 domains interact Maybe routing ng needs to honor no-copy and maybe private (the latter would be weird). Other than that I don't see any big interop problems
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Daniel
Ge0rG: for mam agreed. Conversations will do that as well
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Daniel
For live messages you will race anyway
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Ge0rG
Daniel: yeah, can't do anything about that
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Ge0rG
Except maybe on 0198 resume
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Daniel
I think I might even have code for sm resume. But meh
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dwd
Could it be that IM Routing 2.0 is just a tidied-up Carbons without the cCarbon wrapping?
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Daniel
I wouldn't optimize for that
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Daniel
dwd: yes. That's why writing clients and servers should be fairly easy
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Daniel
Recycle existing code and get rid of the rule mess
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Daniel
Unless I'm missing something major
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Daniel
Plus it always reflects
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Ge0rG
dwd: we still might need the wrapping for outgoing Carbons
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Daniel
Which is a good thing imho
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Ge0rG
OTOH, we don't get that in MAM
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dwd
I don't think you can do without wrapping of some kind for reflection, can you?
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Daniel
If you require clients to include origin ids you could
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Ge0rG
Daniel: what for?
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Daniel
If you wanted to optimize things further you could have the reflection strip out everything but the origin id and the server added elements
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Daniel
Ge0rG: to identify a reflection
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Ge0rG
You can identify a reflection on from being your JID and to being a different JID
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Ge0rG
Daniel: just use message @id for that?
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Daniel
That could also be a message from another client
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Daniel
Ge0rG: same same
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Daniel
(but different unique Ness properties)
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Ge0rG
Daniel: your reflection will have your full JID as the from
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Ge0rG
Daniel: we can finally fix @id uniqueness for IM 2.0
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Daniel
(but then again im routing could also require uniqueness)
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Daniel
Ge0rG: will it?
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Ge0rG
Daniel: what else should be the from?
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Daniel
Not saying should. But it could be the bare jid
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Daniel
In any case I think the story is that we can make that work without wrapper
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Ge0rG
I mean we can just embed everything into forwarded, but why?
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Holger
What about (direct) MUC invitations? Carbon-copy only incoming?
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Ge0rG
Holger: do invitations to self count as incoming?
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Holger
Yes.
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Ge0rG
Sounds good then
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jonas’
FWIW, the IM-NG discussion also brought up the notion that full-jid messages are ephemeral (non-archived) by default, while bare jid messages are persistent (archived) by default
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eevvoor
Ge0rG, any comments on the proposal? We submit it tonight.
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eevvoor
plus flow and DebXWoody
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eevvoor
Thanks to emus, everyone found your idea for inviting an AI-expert to the XMPP-Sprint extremely good. So we added that.
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jonas’
AI-expert?
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eevvoor
We will hand in a research proposal tonight with some AI stuff. So emus idea was to add that to the planned XMPP-sprint to. jonas’
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jonas’
what kind of AI stuff?
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eevvoor
I can send you the proposal in case you are interested,
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jonas’
I’d like a two-line summary instead
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eevvoor
It is machine translation and language learning with XMPP clients.
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jonas’
ok, thanks
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eevvoor
oneliner ;-P
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emus
Many scucess for your proposal!
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eevvoor
Thank you very much :).✎ -
eevvoor
Thank you very much :). emus ✏
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neshtaxmpp
mpparisbest
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neshtaxmpp
do you know something new sslh.
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neshtaxmpp
https://wiki.mattrude.com/SRV_records_for_XMPP_over_TLS is thia gonna gelp
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Daniel
help for what?
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neshtaxmpp
ssh show localhost in apache
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moparisthebest
neshtaxmpp: the only thing I'm gonna say about it is the option you are looking for is https://github.com/yrutschle/sslh/blob/master/doc/config.md#transparent-proxy-support and there are great docs there
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neshtaxmpp
moparisthebest: again the same ?
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moparisthebest
It's the only thing to say so yes
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neshtaxmpp
maybe we didnt sprak woth you from 1 year... and the same old depreceated doculentations that lie.
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neshtaxmpp
ri tbink to try tgis: https://wiki.mattrude.com/SRV_records_for_XMPP_over_TLS
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neshtaxmpp
is ot gonna sgow real ip ?
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moparisthebest
The official docs are correct, I'm not going to review some other docs for correctness
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neshtaxmpp
moparisthebest: the old are incorrect. they dont show how to 127. can be solved...
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moparisthebest
Nope they are up to date and you are wrong, now seriously I'm not discussing it anymore
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neshtaxmpp
i speak woth developer and he comment use iptables... it is danger... as newbies... dont want touch it
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neshtaxmpp
moparisthebest: you are wrong. if im writing you again ot is becouae. 127 ia not solved.
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moparisthebest
neshtaxmpp: wait lol did you just say you talked to the dev who said you must use iptables but don't want to use iptables? Hahaha
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moparisthebest
You have to if you want it to work, just like the docs I linked say, it works and I know it because it works on my machine
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pep.
(that's usually not the only sign to look for proof of work though, but nvm :p)
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moparisthebest
Yes well everyone else's machines also who follows the simple instructions :)
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moparisthebest
Not people who go "but I want to skip parts and have it still work" though
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neshtaxmpp
moparisthebest: you are wrong, now seriously I'm not discussing it anymore
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moparisthebest
Excellent