XSF Discussion - 2020-02-26


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  201. jonas’ This is especially annoying if you are on mobile (*)
  202. jonas’ only if you have functions enabled which are designed to make your life harder by taking control away *scnr*
  203. Zash Is there any reason why you couldn't include a form in the first step of an ad-hoc command? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0050.xml#execute-simple
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  205. Zash Assuming you know ahead of time what the form looks like, eg because it's standardized by xep-0133 or such
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  207. jonas’ Zash, you could try, and I guess any sane service would allow it (because if it isn’t stateless, you run into fun DoS opportunities)
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  210. Zash Just got rid of a thing in a convenience wrapper for simple commands that required that one-step commands be stateful.
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  248. marc0s hi, the `source control` link from `https://xmpp.org/about/standards-process.html#submitting-a-xep` points to `https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/xsf-source-control/` (which 404s) and should point to `https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/source-control.html`. I forked the repo and tried to test it locally but the dev server from isn't rendering the menu, don't know why. I think a plausible fix might be ```diff --git a/content/pages/about/standards-process.md b/content/pages/about/standards-process.md index 303616b..38d8bc1 100644 --- a/content/pages/about/standards-process.md +++ b/content/pages/about/standards-process.md @@ -34,7 +34,7 @@ Here's how to submit a proposal to the XMPP Standards Foundation for considerati 2. Make sure you read, understand, and agree to the XSF’s [IPR Policy](/about/xsf/ipr-policy) before you submit your proposal! 3. Email the XML file (or a URL for the file) to the [Editor Team](mailto:editor@xmpp.org) with a subject line of "ProtoXEP: [your title here]". -Note: It is the author’s responsibility to provide a properly-formatted source file (see the [template](/extensions/xep-template.xml) file maintained under [source control](/about/xsf/xsf-source-control/)). Proposals submitted in HTML, TXT, MS Word, Open Document Format, etc. will be returned to the proposal author for proper formatting. +Note: It is the author’s responsibility to provide a properly-formatted source file (see the [template](/extensions/xep-template.xml) file maintained under [source control](/about/xsf/source-control.html)). Proposals submitted in HTML, TXT, MS Word, Open Document Format, etc. will be returned to the proposal author for proper formatting. #### Editor creates a ProtoXEP ```
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  253. marc0s also, the `xep-template.xml` file doesn't exist in the website repo, should it be linked to the raw version from the xeps repo maybe (https://raw.githubusercontent.com/xsf/xeps/master/xep-template.xml)?
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  318. jonas’ marc0s: the dev server doesn't render the menu for me either :(
  319. marc0s jonas’, thanks for the feedback
  320. jonas’ marc0s: linking to the xeps repo sounds sane to me
  321. jonas’ go ahead and make a PR against xmpp.org
  322. jonas’ thank you
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  324. marc0s It also needs some updating, the dev server, as `python -m pelican.server` no longer works, at least with debian's packaged `pelican`, needed to use `pelican --listen`
  325. marc0s jonas’, I will then
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  339. pep. yeah there are a few issues that could use some fixing on the website with newer python
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  386. MattJ Regarding XEP-0313 deferred, please don't LC it
  387. MattJ I have an update incorporating existing feedback that I already received
  388. MattJ I posted this quite some time ago to people who inspired the feedback, I don't think I got any responses and I didn't follow-up
  389. MattJ But given the XEP is widely implemented already I didn't want to just push the changes without agreement that they were sensible
  390. MattJ I can dig up what I had done and post it to standards@ or something, or if people think I should just push it as a new revision I can do that
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  392. jonas’ MattJ, please do that
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  394. MattJ Which? :)
  395. jonas’ the posting to standards@
  396. MattJ Sure
  397. jonas’ I wasn’t finished reading the message when I replied :D
  398. jonas’ also, I thnik I’m one of those you pinged and I totally forgot about that and I’d love to check your changes.
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  400. MattJ Here's a diff I generated: https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/stdin-s2ilB8Kj
  401. MattJ I can dig up the XML from whichever checkout I had it in
  402. jonas’ i see before-id/after-id fields
  403. jonas’ I love it already
  404. jonas’ {+ <field type='text-single' var='urn:example:xmpp:free-text-search'/>+}
  405. jonas’ sugegstion: make this {clark}notated
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  410. jonas’ MattJ, I have a bit more of feedback on this, shall I dump it here or 1:1?
  411. MattJ If it's brain-dump style... an email? (i.e. TODO item for me)
  412. MattJ if it's interactive, I'm fine with here or 1:1
  413. jonas’ brain dump
  414. jonas’ email == jid?
  415. MattJ Email or 1:1 and I'll copy/paste it somewhere :)
  416. MattJ Sure
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  418. jonas’ sent
  419. MattJ Received, thanks!
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  421. MattJ I'll aim to act on that by the end of next week
  422. jonas’ that sounds amazing
  423. MattJ Still without an office, and my work schedule is suffering :)
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  430. Daniel Question to the server developers. I'm assuming that by now you are all treating muc presence with the x user attribute as full joins. To you remember when you started doing so?
  431. Daniel With what version of your respective server software
  432. Daniel Wondering if it is time to remove the good old leave before join work around
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  435. MattJ Looks like it was Prosody 0.11 when we started rejecting GC 1.0 joins
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  438. MattJ So 2018-11-21
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  466. Ge0rG There are still many pre 0.11 in the wild
  467. Zash Got stats?
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  474. Ge0rG Ask jonas
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  476. Ge0rG I only have anecdata of Debian oldstable
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  478. Zash Debian stable has 0.11, oldstable-backports has 0.11, normal support for oldstable likely ends this year
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  506. flow IMHO usually the ideal point in time to drop compatibility workarounds or older protocol versions is when its about 2 years after the point in time when you should have dropped them
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  508. Zash So when do we drop the "MUST support GC 1.0" from XEP-0045?
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  510. flow now that is something we could drop
  511. flow Zash, it appears Smack removed GC 1.0 in 2006
  512. Zash Wait, did Ge0rG and I sneakily remove that MUST already or did I imagine it?
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  516. Ge0rG flow [21:12]: > IMHO usually the ideal point in time to drop compatibility workarounds or older protocol versions is when its about 2 years after the point in time when you should have dropped them May I quote that in https://discourse.igniterealtime.org/t/smack-android-api-requirements/85767
  517. Ge0rG Zash: > Therefore, starting with version 1.32 of this specification, it is RECOMMENDED that a service receiving a <presence> without an <x> element from a non-occupant full-JID responds with an explicit kick to that client.
  518. Ge0rG Not only we removed the requirement to support GC1.0, we even discourage its use
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  524. flow Ge0rG, the latest release version of Smack requires Android API 9 or higher, and Android API 9 is Android ~10 years ago
  525. flow the upcoming version will bump to Android API 19, which is Android 4.4 released 7 years ago
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  527. flow so I believe to be reasonable conservative when it comes to supporting old versions
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  529. Zash Ge0rG, \o/
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  532. Ge0rG flow: yes, and now just add two more years...
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  534. flow Ge0rG, already did so two years ago ;)
  535. Ge0rG I think i have roughly a dozen patches on top of 4.3 now, either adding new features / XEPs, or providing access to internals which I need exposed, or working around real world implementation issues, like the Dino MUC
  536. Ge0rG flow: two years ago it was too early!
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  542. marc Ge0rG, you have the same problem with 389 as with regular IBR, right?
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  549. marc tbh, I don't see much advantage of 389 at all
  550. Ge0rG marc: no, I see a number of additional problems in 0389
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  552. Ge0rG proof-of-work just won't work against spammers
  553. marc yep
  554. marc Okay, maybe we can split 401 and PARS but somehow reference them as Daniel suggested (?) and we're done? :)
  555. Ge0rG marc: I think that a split doesn't make sense. Not for the UX and not technically
  556. marc Ge0rG, okay, but why didn't you respond to the mail then?
  557. marc I see a big advantage in easy account creation
  558. marc PARS on top is nice but not a must
  559. Ge0rG You don't have to add the contact from 0401. You could also add everybody who used the same token, like with the snikket Demo
  560. Ge0rG But those are not the main use case
  561. Ge0rG The really important case is adding a friend and having them in the roster automatically
  562. Ge0rG Daniel also made a bet on using the phone address book to automatically add contacts.
  563. Ge0rG My impression is that he considers this bet as failed now
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  568. Ge0rG If you remove PARS from 0401, you'll end up with implementations that allow registration from an invitation token, but don't consistently add the contact, so you don't gain much
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  571. Ge0rG Alternatively, you could move the combined functionality into a third XEP, but what would be the benefit?
  572. Daniel To be fair half the implementations do that already
  573. marc Daniel, hm?
  574. marc do what?
  575. Daniel Implement the registration part but not the contact part
  576. marc Daniel, what exactly did you implement from 401, btw?
  577. Daniel The being 'invited' to a server part
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  580. Daniel And use the pars token to register
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  582. marc Daniel, this means you send the token via ibr to the server?
  583. Daniel Yes
  584. marc Daniel, via IBR or IQ?
  585. Daniel Well the weird pre ibr thing
  586. marc :-(
  587. Daniel I don't have any feelings on that
  588. marc I hate it ^^
  589. Daniel That was just what's supported by prosody
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  591. lskdjf > marc: I think that a split doesn't make sense. Not for the UX and not technically Ge0rG, I'm also in favour of spliting the two processes. As a UX developer you want the user to get some sort of image of how the application works. And for "getting a contact into your roster", I'm trying to teach the user that this happens by clicking some specific button(s). If you now start to just magically add contacts to the contact list, you break the image I'm trying to convey. What I'd like to do is to add the contact and then perhaps display a dialog "Anna invited you, would you like to add her?". I know you want to make the whole process easier, but adding more concepts doesn't make understanding easier.
  592. marc lskdjf, good point
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  594. Daniel I think I said this on list but my interest in the registration part is to avoid open ibr for semi public servers (read hacker space, club) where you can stick a qr code on the wall and everyone who has physical access to the building can sign up. But spammers can't
  595. lskdjf s/What I'd like to do is to add the contact/What I'd like to do is to add the account
  596. Daniel I don't agree at all with the concept of so called easy xmpp
  597. Ge0rG lskdjf: that's interesting indeed. But then would you also introduce the concept of presence subscription and its bidirectionality?
  598. Daniel Which is fine. There can in fact be xeps that I don't agree with
  599. Daniel But I don't like to loose what in my eyes is a valid use case
  600. Ge0rG Daniel: the hacker space functionality is there, just use the domain JID URI
  601. marc Daniel, sure, my primary use case is a similar one
  602. Zash Hackerspace functionality whatnow?
  603. Ge0rG It's even implemented in yaxim and prosody already
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  605. marc Daniel, and sure, you don't have to agree on everything but I would like to have opinions from experienced devs
  606. Ge0rG Zash: > I think I said this on list but my interest in the registration part is to avoid open ibr for semi public servers (read hacker space, club) where you can stick a qr code on the wall and everyone who has physical access to the building can sign up. But spammers can't
  607. Daniel I know that it is covered. Conversations handles that. But it is a mess to comprehend due to the tight coupling with _shit I don't need_
  608. Zash Ge0rG, ah, ours was set up to limit registrations to the local IPv6 network
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  610. Ge0rG Daniel: but it might be shit that your users need...
  611. Zash Everyones needs are different for some weird reason.
  612. marc What _shit_ are you talking about?
  613. Daniel Well the registration part hooks (at very least semantically) on pars
  614. Daniel Which by its name alone is something completely different
  615. lskdjf > lskdjf: that's interesting indeed. But then would you also introduce the concept of presence subscription and its bidirectionality? Ge0rG, depends on the application and how detailt the picture is they convey. The easier version would probably be to say that if "contact X on your roster/friend list" == "contact x gets your information"
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  620. Ge0rG I could very well live with changing 0401 to "if the invitation is from a user bare JID, the receiving client shall perform a roster request with the token as a PARS token. The client may first ask the user for permission / guide them through the process"
  621. Ge0rG Would that satisfy Daniel and lskdjf?
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  623. Daniel I actually read my email again and I think it brings my point across
  624. Daniel You say you don't want to separate the two because you are afraid someone will implement the registration without the subscription part
  625. Daniel I don't think that's something the xep author should decide
  626. Ge0rG Right, the main reason for the XEP should be optional.
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  629. marc Hm, what about less irony and more constrictive input? 🤔
  630. marc Since there is no good argument against IBR, I would like to keep this as-is, or is there a good argument?
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  632. MattJ Seems like I should have participated in this discussion, but I didn't see it was happening
  633. MattJ I don't care much about the protocol - if people don't like the iq thing, come up with something else
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  636. MattJ I think the argument about making the user do more work to add a contact they want to speak to, just to teach them a lesson is... not sound
  637. MattJ We already know the user intent, don't add more clicks or taps than we need to get the task done
  638. MattJ They can learn to add contacts next time they want to add a new contact
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  641. MattJ Getting someone onboarded to the network is enough work already
  642. MattJ We need to remove all the friction we can
  643. pep. "just to teach them a lesson" I can only read this in a pejorative way, is it how you mean it?
  644. MattJ Read it however you want :)
  645. pep. I don't think that's how lskdjf meant it anyway :)
  646. pep. To teach the user habits, patterns
  647. MattJ It doesn't matter, it's what it is doing
  648. MattJ You want to talk to a contact, but first we want you to go through some training
  649. pep. MattJ, no you got it in reverse
  650. moparisthebest to teach the user a lesson we need to implement a XEP I've always dreamed of "remote slapping of a user over the internet"
  651. pep. if you allow that to be one and only step, then next time they want to add somebody they'll be like "why did I have to do something this time?"
  652. MattJ That's nonsense
  653. MattJ Adding contacts is a familiar activity to anyone who wants to add a contact
  654. MattJ Throwing popups in the face of a new user is just not what we need more of right now
  655. pep. I wish we had real UX people to help us tbh. I'm not qualified for this
  656. pep. It seems to me we're all making stabs in the dark
  657. pep. not all all but ..
  658. Zash moparisthebest, search for "xep poke"
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  661. MattJ I don't claim to be a UX expert at all. But the effect of adding steps to an onboarding flow is well documented by now
  662. MattJ (and it's a negative one)
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  666. marc > I don't care much about the protocol - if people don't like the iq thing, come up with something else I already came up with something else ;)
  667. MattJ marc: where?
  668. marc In the XEP?
  669. MattJ The current revision?
  670. marc The 'regular' way via IBR
  671. Zash Rough consensus and running code!
  672. MattJ I see a lot of TODO
  673. marc True, not saying the XEP is ready just that there is another way how to provide the token
  674. MattJ I would need to dig up chat logs to remember the things that drove us to the preauth iq, but not depending on the old IBR was one reason
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  676. MattJ The "new IBR" is not good enough (currently?) though
  677. marc What's the new ibr?
  678. marc I don't see any advantage of 398, if you mean that
  679. MattJ 389
  680. marc Whatever ;)
  681. marc Where is the advantage for 401?
  682. MattJ For 401 alone? None afaik
  683. MattJ For XMPP? It would be nice to have a more flexible registration flow in general
  684. MattJ (I repeat that today's 389 is not that, but it's a step in the right direction)
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  687. marc Yep, but that's off topic for 401 and how to provide the token
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  689. MattJ Not if the answer is simply "do this preauth thing and register however you want"
  690. marc I'm afk now, but please let me know if there is a good reason for the IQ approach. I really dislike this approach 😶
  691. Zash ^ is why I dislike IBR, weird thing looking like an iq stanza long before that's supposed to be allowed
  692. MattJ I agree
  693. MattJ I'd love to move away from all iqs before bind
  694. Zash At least in Prosody it's not even treated as a stanza, just a weird "nonza" that happens to be in the "jabber:client" namespace
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  696. Zash ... not anymore. Used to be an uncomfortable amount of of exceptions in a bunch of places that allowed iq stanzas on unauthenticated connections under certain conditions
  697. Zash So, it would be nice to get 389 moving again.
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  751. marc0s should I do something special to have firefox render XEP's XML files? it complains about `XML Parsing Error: undefined entity` while chrome displays it without any problem
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