XSF Discussion - 2020-02-27


  1. mukt2 has joined
  2. Neustradamus has left
  3. Neustradamus has joined
  4. strypey has joined
  5. strypey has left
  6. strypey has joined
  7. jan has joined
  8. mukt2 has left
  9. mukt2 has joined
  10. lskdjf has left
  11. lskdjf has joined
  12. intosi has joined
  13. lskdjf has left
  14. lskdjf has joined
  15. lskdjf has left
  16. lskdjf has joined
  17. lorddavidiii has left
  18. mukt2 has left
  19. lorddavidiii has joined
  20. Marc has left
  21. Marc has joined
  22. lskdjf has left
  23. lskdjf has joined
  24. strypey has left
  25. lskdjf has left
  26. lskdjf has joined
  27. raghavgururajan has left
  28. intosi has left
  29. mukt2 has joined
  30. raghavgururajan has joined
  31. lorddavidiii has left
  32. pdurbin has joined
  33. Lance has joined
  34. lorddavidiii has joined
  35. pdurbin has left
  36. Marc has left
  37. lorddavidiii has left
  38. raghavgururajan has left
  39. lorddavidiii has joined
  40. jan has left
  41. lskdjf has left
  42. mukt2 has left
  43. lorddavidiii has left
  44. Douglas Terabyte has left
  45. Douglas Terabyte has joined
  46. lorddavidiii has joined
  47. raghavgururajan has joined
  48. mukt2 has joined
  49. raghavgururajan has left
  50. raghavgururajan has joined
  51. andrey.g has left
  52. lorddavidiii has left
  53. lorddavidiii has joined
  54. strypey has joined
  55. strypey has left
  56. strypey has joined
  57. Lance has left
  58. arc has left
  59. arc has joined
  60. intosi has joined
  61. krauq has left
  62. raghavgururajan has left
  63. raghavgururajan has joined
  64. raghavgururajan has left
  65. raghavgururajan has joined
  66. winfried has left
  67. winfried has joined
  68. raghavgururajan has left
  69. raghavgururajan has joined
  70. strypey has left
  71. krauq has joined
  72. intosi has left
  73. neshtaxmpp has left
  74. neshtaxmpp has joined
  75. pdurbin has joined
  76. lorddavidiii has left
  77. lorddavidiii has joined
  78. mukt2 has left
  79. pdurbin has left
  80. Douglas Terabyte has left
  81. mukt2 has joined
  82. Douglas Terabyte has joined
  83. lorddavidiii has left
  84. lorddavidiii has joined
  85. pdurbin has joined
  86. adiaholic has left
  87. adiaholic has joined
  88. mukt2 has left
  89. mukt2 has joined
  90. adiaholic has left
  91. adiaholic has joined
  92. adiaholic has left
  93. adiaholic has joined
  94. Yagiza has joined
  95. raghavgururajan has left
  96. raghavgururajan has joined
  97. andy has joined
  98. raghavgururajan has left
  99. raghavgururajan has joined
  100. intosi has joined
  101. andrey.g has joined
  102. intosi has left
  103. mukt2 has left
  104. mukt2 has joined
  105. Neustradamus has left
  106. Neustradamus has joined
  107. Half-Shot[m] has left
  108. mukt2 has left
  109. moparisthebest has left
  110. Tobias has joined
  111. mukt2 has joined
  112. emus has joined
  113. pdurbin has left
  114. mukt2 has left
  115. pdurbin has joined
  116. mukt2 has joined
  117. paul has joined
  118. winfried has left
  119. winfried has joined
  120. j.r has left
  121. j.r has joined
  122. mukt2 has left
  123. mukt2 has joined
  124. raghavgururajan has left
  125. raghavgururajan has joined
  126. mukt2 has left
  127. mukt2 has joined
  128. xelxebar has left
  129. jonas’ marc0s: sometimes, addons such as noscript or umatrix block the files needed for renderig
  130. jonas’ since XSL is turing complete.
  131. jonas’ if you plan to do more XEP work, using the makefile in the xeps repository to build your document ( `make build/inbox/reminders.html`, assuming linux and your protoxep in `inbox/reminders.xml`) may be worthwhile
  132. marc0s thanks jonas’ . Yes I'm aware of the Makefile, I was just wondering why it didn't work. More than probably is one of those addons, which I have both
  133. rion has left
  134. rion has joined
  135. jonas’ marc0s: also I replied to your email with further instructions
  136. waqas has left
  137. mukt2 has left
  138. mukt2 has joined
  139. intosi has joined
  140. arc has left
  141. arc has joined
  142. raghavgururajan has left
  143. marc0s jonas’: got it, thanks
  144. intosi has left
  145. adiaholic has left
  146. mukt2 has left
  147. raghavgururajan has joined
  148. mukt2 has joined
  149. karoshi has joined
  150. adiaholic has joined
  151. Lance has joined
  152. adiaholic has left
  153. adiaholic has joined
  154. winfried has left
  155. winfried has joined
  156. mimi89999 has joined
  157. matkor has left
  158. matkor has joined
  159. Lance has left
  160. debacle has joined
  161. raghavgururajan has left
  162. raghavgururajan has joined
  163. emus has left
  164. mukt2 has left
  165. Jeybe has joined
  166. Steve Kille has left
  167. Jeybe has left
  168. Steve Kille has joined
  169. Jeybe has joined
  170. Jeybe has left
  171. arc has left
  172. krauq has left
  173. intosi has joined
  174. krauq has joined
  175. Marc has joined
  176. xelxebar has joined
  177. mimi89999 has left
  178. marc > So, it would be nice to get 389 moving again. Zash: 389 is IBR after bind or what?
  179. Zash No
  180. marc I don't get the point then
  181. mimi89999 has joined
  182. emus has joined
  183. pdurbin has left
  184. Marc has left
  185. Marc has joined
  186. Jeybe has joined
  187. Ge0rG marc: what's the essence of our yesterday's discussion? Do you want to make token-IBR and PARS more distinct, and have a stronger highlight on the standalone token-IBR? Do you want to make the changes or shall I make another attempt at a PR?
  188. Ge0rG And that's actually absolutely orthogonal to the pre-IBR-IQ vs. dataforms vs. ??? question
  189. raghavgururajan has left
  190. vanitasvitae has left
  191. vanitasvitae has joined
  192. marc Ge0rG: wasn't the outcome that we make pars / roster subscription "more optional" in 401?
  193. marc > And that's actually absolutely orthogonal to the pre-IBR-IQ vs. dataforms vs. ??? question Yes, but still an open question
  194. Ge0rG marc: yes, that was the desired outcome. The question is, how we get there and who's in charge
  195. Ge0rG marc: I'm strongly convince that under the given circumstances, pre-IBR IQ is the last hacky hack.
  196. Ge0rG marc: I'm strongly convinced that under the given circumstances, pre-IBR IQ is the last hacky hack.
  197. mukt2 has joined
  198. marc > marc: I'm strongly convinced that under the given circumstances, pre-IBR IQ is the last hacky hack. 🤔
  199. Zash "least"?
  200. Ge0rG marc: I'm strongly convinced that under the given circumstances, pre-IBR IQ is the least hacky hack.
  201. Ge0rG Zash: thanks. My keyboard seems to be eating lttrs
  202. APach has left
  203. debacle has left
  204. mukt2 has left
  205. Dele Olajide has joined
  206. Alex @‎pep.‎ memberbot PR looks good to me. But it looks like I don't have permissions ro merge
  207. pep. hah
  208. Dele Olajide has left
  209. pep. MattJ, ^
  210. pep. plz! :)
  211. Dele Olajide has joined
  212. Dele Olajide has left
  213. Dele Olajide has joined
  214. Dele Olajide has left
  215. Dele Olajide has joined
  216. mukt2 has joined
  217. Dele Olajide has left
  218. Dele Olajide has joined
  219. Dele Olajide has left
  220. lorddavidiii has left
  221. goffi has joined
  222. lorddavidiii has joined
  223. Dele Olajide has joined
  224. goffi has left
  225. adiaholic has left
  226. adiaholic has joined
  227. mukt2 has left
  228. raghavgururajan has joined
  229. goffi has joined
  230. Max has left
  231. Max has joined
  232. mukt2 has joined
  233. Marc has left
  234. Syndace has left
  235. Syndace has joined
  236. Marc has joined
  237. Marc has left
  238. Syndace has left
  239. Marc has joined
  240. Syndace has joined
  241. larma has left
  242. mukt2 has left
  243. raghavgururajan has left
  244. larma has joined
  245. debacle has joined
  246. Jeybe has left
  247. mukt2 has joined
  248. Jeybe has joined
  249. raghavgururajan has joined
  250. mukt2 has left
  251. lskdjf has joined
  252. mukt2 has joined
  253. pdurbin has joined
  254. larma has left
  255. larma has joined
  256. mukt2 has left
  257. raghavgururajan has left
  258. pdurbin has left
  259. lorddavidiii has left
  260. larma has left
  261. winfried has left
  262. winfried has joined
  263. lorddavidiii has joined
  264. mukt2 has joined
  265. larma has joined
  266. Marc has left
  267. lskdjf has left
  268. winfried has left
  269. winfried has joined
  270. mukt2 has left
  271. lskdjf has joined
  272. mukt2 has joined
  273. winfried has left
  274. winfried has joined
  275. eevvoor has joined
  276. winfried has left
  277. winfried has joined
  278. Dele Olajide has left
  279. Dele Olajide has joined
  280. lorddavidiii has left
  281. lorddavidiii has joined
  282. Dele Olajide has left
  283. Dele Olajide has joined
  284. Dele Olajide has left
  285. Dele Olajide has joined
  286. Marc has joined
  287. Dele Olajide has left
  288. moparisthebest has joined
  289. Dele Olajide has joined
  290. pdurbin has joined
  291. mukt2 has left
  292. mukt2 has joined
  293. winfried has left
  294. winfried has joined
  295. pdurbin has left
  296. mukt2 has left
  297. Steve Kille has left
  298. typikol has joined
  299. typikol has left
  300. mukt2 has joined
  301. Steve Kille has joined
  302. mukt2 has left
  303. mukt2 has joined
  304. eevvoor has left
  305. Max has left
  306. Max has joined
  307. winfried has left
  308. winfried has joined
  309. j.r has left
  310. mukt2 has left
  311. j.r has joined
  312. nyco-2 has joined
  313. pep. I might not make it in 5mn, or I'll be late (on the road)
  314. Shell has joined
  315. MattJ *nod*
  316. nyco-2 has left
  317. nyco-2 has joined
  318. eevvoor has joined
  319. Dele Olajide2 has joined
  320. ralphm bangs gavel
  321. ralphm 0. Welcome
  322. ralphm Hi! Who do we have?
  323. Seve Greetings! :)
  324. pep. ! somewhat. better in a few minutes
  325. MattJ o/
  326. ralphm Guus?
  327. Guus here
  328. ralphm Yay!
  329. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  330. nyco-2 https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/9f92-2020-02-27-xsfboardweekly
  331. ralphm hello nyco-2! Thanks
  332. ralphm 2. Team memberships
  333. pdurbin has joined
  334. ralphm jonas’ raised this item, regarding culling the editor team from people who are not actually, well, editing.
  335. MattJ Right
  336. MattJ As agreed last week, I pinged each member currently listed on the editors team
  337. winfried has left
  338. MattJ Nobody asked to be removed from the team, everyone indicated they intend to contribute where they can
  339. winfried has joined
  340. MattJ I understand this is probably not the outcome jonas wanted
  341. Guus They explicitly replied? Nice.
  342. Zash has left
  343. MattJ Yes, everyone
  344. pep. ! here
  345. MattJ A couple of people did say that they are ok with being removed if it is a problem
  346. MattJ The original intention based on last week's discussion was to remove anyone who had e.g. overlooked resigning from the team
  347. MattJ It appears nobody falls into that category
  348. ralphm Right
  349. MattJ If we want to actively start removing people from the team, I think that's a tougher call and would need some objective criteria or someone other than me to make that call :)
  350. MattJ or we solve the original problem some other way, if possible
  351. ralphm I agree. Can't the Editor team resolve that on their own?
  352. Guus I'd not be in favor of removing people against their will, at least not unless the matter is more pressing to jonas’ than what I assume is the case.
  353. pep. well editor team is in fact mostly Jonas. Even I as the latest added member is not as active
  354. Guus If this is a problem to be fixed, rather than an optimization (as how I currently perceive it) I'd be happy to circle back to this.
  355. pep. am*
  356. Shell has left
  357. Shell has joined
  358. Guus let's wait for jonas’ feedback
  359. ralphm Guus: agreed
  360. pep. k
  361. ralphm I did notice that stpeter is still mentioned as Executive Director on the Members list. That should be adjusted.
  362. ralphm Anything else on this?
  363. Guus not from me
  364. ralphm 3. 2020 Sponsors
  365. Dele Olajide has left
  366. Seve Periods of activity in our case are difficult to manage, I'm with you guys on this
  367. Dele Olajide2 has left
  368. ralphm Regarding my commitments on this, as you probably have noticed, I have been busy with work the last two weeks, so I am taking this on for coming meeting.
  369. Guus what's the commitment regarding sponsors exactly?
  370. Guus reach out / renew?
  371. ralphm Guus: yes, the two items in trello
  372. Guus that just says 'sponsors 2020' 🙂
  373. Guus that just says '2020 sponsors' 🙂
  374. Shell has left
  375. Dele Olajide has joined
  376. Guus oh, sorry
  377. ralphm No that's in the "Items for Discussions" column
  378. Guus yeah, just noticed it. apologies
  379. ralphm I don't think we have anything to discuss right now
  380. ralphm (on this)
  381. nyco-2 ralphm the newsletter is not yet closed, should I add something about it?
  382. ralphm When is the deadline?
  383. krauq has left
  384. nyco-2 tomrrow?
  385. ralphm Hmm. I'll see what I can come up with.
  386. nyco-2 thx
  387. ralphm Good idea.
  388. Guus +1
  389. Shell has joined
  390. Zash has joined
  391. ralphm 4. Board voting process and discussions
  392. winfried has left
  393. winfried has joined
  394. pdurbin has left
  395. lorddavidiii has left
  396. ralphm pep. raised this on the Members list. I wasn't sure if it should be discussed now.
  397. pep. there hasn't been much discussion around it (!)
  398. pep. Dave answered on the list, I don't especially agree with all. I meant to reply
  399. ralphm My questions are: 1) was there a trigger for this, 2) have you found this to be a problem in practice?
  400. lorddavidiii has joined
  401. eevvoor has left
  402. pep. the trigger to me is that board is rarely managing to get all 5 in their meetings. I've been following board for as long as I'm involved in the community.
  403. krauq has joined
  404. pep. as for it being a problem, I don't want to get to that, that's why
  405. ralphm Ok. Then I have a response.
  406. lorddavidiii has left
  407. pep. I wonder what made board use 2 and not 3 like council
  408. Dele Olajide has left
  409. Dele Olajide has joined
  410. ralphm First on practice on this topic: as long as I have been on Board, I don't remember us taking any decision that was contested because of the way we handle quorum and majority on decisions.
  411. pep. so?
  412. Shell has left
  413. Shell has joined
  414. neshtaxmpp has left
  415. lorddavidiii has joined
  416. neshtaxmpp has joined
  417. ralphm Instead, we've generally either postponed meetings to get enough people (i.e. at least 3, but preferably more).
  418. pep. well then let's make it a rule, what's the hold up
  419. Wojtek has joined
  420. ralphm So I don't think there's actually a problem in need of solving. I do like the suggestion of voting on list in case of a missed meeting.
  421. ralphm But I also have a second point.
  422. goffi has left
  423. Dele Olajide has left
  424. Dele Olajide has joined
  425. eevvoor has joined
  426. Guus (while we wait for Ralph's second point): Having a vote potentially pass with just 2 votes seems undesirable to me, as that might (not sure, things can be overturned by the rest of board later) open the door for abuse. Dave's suggested fix ("try to make sure it doesn't happen") is hardly an improvement, in terms of hard rules. That does not rule out this being abused somewhere in the future. Some kind of more formal fix would be better, but I do think it would be good for us to prioritize matters that are currently more pressing than this one, to be honest. I feel that lately, we've been burning a lot of fuel, but not made much progress.
  427. lorddavidiii has left
  428. Guus (is there a time limit on making a second point? 😉 )
  429. ralphm I've noticed I have become increasingly frustrated with having to discuss theoretical issues, like perceived gaps in our procedures, by-laws, etc. In my opinion, no organisation's rules and procedures are perfect, or could be, and the bylaws and other procedures like XEP-0001 are there as a framework to work within. We don't have to lock down everything to the letter. It takes (precious volunteer) time, that I'd like to use for persuing the goals of the XSF. Instead, these discussions are a big turn off for me, and make it less likely that I reserve additional time to do this.
  430. winfried has left
  431. winfried has joined
  432. Guus I can relate to that.
  433. lorddavidiii has joined
  434. Seve I will send my thoughts over email as time is up, although I will take the advantage I completely understand ralphm's second point
  435. Seve I will send my thoughts over email as time is up, although I will take the advantage to say I completely understand ralphm's second point
  436. ralphm I am, of course, happy to clarify ways of working, explaining our current rules or historical stuff, but I more often also sense a desire for change as part of the clarification question, and this frustrates me.
  437. MattJ I was typing a response, but your last message covers it
  438. pep. these gaps might be perceived for a reason. and I'm happy to close them, but it won't be happy if you oppose it
  439. pep. these gaps might be perceived for a reason. and I'm happy to close them, but it won't be easy if you oppose it
  440. MattJ I think clarification and docs on many things that happen in the XSF are not clear, so I appreciate efforts to try to clean this up (and it definitely is the kind of thing Board is for)
  441. pep. lots of things that needs clarifying
  442. pep. There are too many assumptions that the XSF live with and it's extremely hard to understand all that
  443. pep. There are too many assumptions that the XSF lives with and it's extremely hard to understand all that
  444. MattJ But obviously you can go too far down that road and just chase organizational stuff for the sake of it
  445. ralphm pep., I am asking for this reason every time it happens, not just with you. And invariably, it feels like it is all theoretical combing through the prose that make up our bylaws and other procedures, not as a real problem in need of fixing.
  446. Kev For what it's worth, despite probably being one of the greybeards at this point, I do feel we have institutional knowledge that isn't recorded and should be. We can go too far in chasing perfection, but I think there are probably various bits of low-hanging fruit that will help us as more people come into the community.
  447. Kev (Which might be slightly distinct from wanting to change bylaws and things)
  448. ralphm Kev: I am for this, as I tried to convey above. The problem I have is my perceived urge to change things for the sake of it, not merely clarification.
  449. krauq has left
  450. ralphm And, also, I suppose, I feel that we don't have to go to extraordinary lengths in making those procedures fool proof. All of our precedures have escape hatches in case a real conflict should arise.
  451. krauq has joined
  452. pep. so what now
  453. ralphm pep., well, I was hoping you could reflect on my point of view
  454. pep. didn't I?
  455. ralphm Can you see where I am coming from?
  456. goffi has joined
  457. nyco-2 debate overload, I have to go, please finish: https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/9f92-2020-02-27-xsfboardweekly thx! 🙂
  458. ralphm Thanks nyco-2
  459. pep. fwiw I am annoyed that the excuse of volunteering is reused over and over. if you don't have time for it (and it's not a full time job, far from it) then don't apply, plus there were other candidates. I understand we have different priorities. And I think I'll leave it at that.
  460. gav has joined
  461. ralphm I _do_ believe I have plenty of time to do things for the XSF. I just don't want to spend it on, in my opinion, theoretical discussions with little value.
  462. Guus That might be a matter of priorities of tasks in context of the XSF, I think. We all seem to have different priorities.
  463. ralphm I'd must rather use it for starting a documentation project (something that was discussed at FOSDEM), or whatever.
  464. ralphm much
  465. Guus That might be a matter of personal priorities of tasks in context of the XSF, I think. We all seem to have different priorities.
  466. Guus I think that as board, we should work on tasks that we think are of highest priority. What we appear to be missing is consensus of what is.
  467. ralphm pep., my task as Director and Chair is that the XSF can persue its goals, and particularly the business parts of running a coorporation. I will express my frustration about busy-work that doesn't match that task.
  468. Guus I suspect that some of us might even have very different priority lists.
  469. pep. because I'm also not trying to help the XSF with its goals obviously
  470. pep. anyway, this is not getting anywhere
  471. pep. shall we close
  472. nyco-2 has left
  473. ralphm pep., I didn't say you are not. I really appreciate various things you have done and do. My frustration is *definitely* not with just you, either. I thought it important to express my frustration instead of throwing tables and hopefully finding a solution.
  474. ralphm But sure, we can close the meeting.
  475. eevvoor has left
  476. ralphm And maybe revisit next week if needed.
  477. ralphm 5. AOB
  478. Seve None here
  479. MattJ None here
  480. pep. I'm probably not here next week at this time, I'd appreciate if we can delay this topic a other week
  481. Guus none
  482. ralphm pep., noted
  483. pep. I'm probably not here next week at this time, I'd appreciate if we can delay this topic another week
  484. ralphm 6. Date of Next
  485. ralphm +1W
  486. Shell has left
  487. ralphm 7. Close
  488. ralphm Thanks all!
  489. ralphm bangs gavel
  490. pep. thanks
  491. eevvoor has joined
  492. eevvoor has left
  493. krauq has left
  494. eevvoor has joined
  495. jonas’ .
  496. pep. ,
  497. jonas’ thanks MattJ for pinging people. there is no reason to drop people who intend to contribute.
  498. mukt2 has joined
  499. mukt2 has left
  500. jeybe has joined
  501. rion has left
  502. jeybe has left
  503. jeybe has joined
  504. rion has joined
  505. jeybe has left
  506. matkor has left
  507. matkor has joined
  508. adiaholic has left
  509. adiaholic has joined
  510. mukt2 has joined
  511. pdurbin has joined
  512. mukt2 has left
  513. emus has left
  514. david has left
  515. j.r has left
  516. pdurbin has left
  517. matkor has left
  518. matkor has joined
  519. eevvoor has left
  520. j.r has joined
  521. j.r has left
  522. j.r has joined
  523. Daniel has left
  524. krauq has joined
  525. Daniel has joined
  526. emus has joined
  527. david has joined
  528. mukt2 has joined
  529. mukt2 has left
  530. Kev has left
  531. neshtaxmpp has left
  532. nyco-2 has joined
  533. paul has left
  534. paul has joined
  535. Dele Olajide has left
  536. Kev has joined
  537. winfried has left
  538. winfried has joined
  539. winfried has left
  540. winfried has joined
  541. winfried has left
  542. winfried has joined
  543. winfried has left
  544. winfried has joined
  545. mrechte has joined
  546. mrechte has left
  547. Shell has joined
  548. pdurbin has joined
  549. APach has joined
  550. pdurbin has left
  551. Shell has left
  552. Shell has joined
  553. Yagiza has left
  554. Dele Olajide has joined
  555. adiaholic has left
  556. adiaholic has joined
  557. Dele (Mobile) has joined
  558. Nekit has left
  559. Shell has left
  560. Shell has joined
  561. matkor has left
  562. matkor has joined
  563. lorddavidiii has left
  564. lorddavidiii has joined
  565. debacle has left
  566. neshtaxmpp has joined
  567. pdurbin has joined
  568. pdurbin has left
  569. adiaholic has left
  570. adiaholic has joined
  571. Dele has joined
  572. Dele has left
  573. j.r has left
  574. Dele has joined
  575. j.r has joined
  576. j.r has left
  577. j.r has joined
  578. vanitasvitae has left
  579. vanitasvitae has joined
  580. goffi has left
  581. jeybe has joined
  582. jeybe has left
  583. LNJ has joined
  584. Tobias has left
  585. Dele has left
  586. nyco-2 has left
  587. nyco-2 has joined
  588. debacle has joined
  589. pdurbin has joined
  590. rion has left
  591. rion has joined
  592. LNJ has left
  593. Wojtek has left
  594. pdurbin has left
  595. adiaholic has left
  596. winfried has left
  597. winfried has joined
  598. winfried has left
  599. winfried has joined
  600. moparisthebest has left
  601. emus has left
  602. lorddavidiii has left
  603. raghavgururajan has joined
  604. Shell has left
  605. Shell has joined
  606. paul has left
  607. adiaholic has joined
  608. Marc has left