-
jonas’
https://mobile.twitter.com/jennafranke/status/1237493419510919168 > Not desperate enough to try WebEx, tho.
-
rion
xep-0371 has somewhat weird statement <p>In the unlikely event that one of the parties determines that it cannot establish connectivity even after sending and checking lower-priority candidates, it SHOULD terminate the session as described in <cite>XEP-0166</cite>.</p> But this may be content-remove or transport-replace as well. I'd remove this line at all.
-
rion
I'll update my ICE PR a little bit more this evening. What has to be done for it to be merged?
-
rion
I just asked psa on jabber to review it. Not response so far.
-
rion
oh. every time I write something to fippo, he is "*** fippo has been removed from the room due to technical problem" Where can I get his email?
-
rion
seems like found on wiki his jid :)
-
rion
I'll make an email threads afterwards, when I stop updating ICE PR. :)
-
Guus
I'm following government update on corona, want to keep following that
-
Guus
(re: board meeting)
-
pep.
!
-
ralphm
same here
-
pep.
What does that mean re board meeting?
-
ralphm
shouldn't take more than a few minutes, I think
-
Guus
regarding
-
pep.
There's some kind of announcement or sth?
-
ralphm
Yeah, additional measures.
-
pep.
k
-
ralphm
E.g. shutdown of all events, venues >100 persons.
-
nyco-2
in France, it used to be 5 k, then 1k, Macron will speak on TV at 20:00
-
pep.
No but france is not in danger! number are way lower than other countries around! We can keep the economy going! Let's not disrupt the market :)
-
moparisthebest
New marketing strategy: meeting via XMPP prevents coronavirus
- Ge0rG ,oO( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22554145 )
-
moparisthebest
Can't imagine a group that "smart" will come up with anything
-
pep.
How is the thing going?
-
nyco-2
Covid-19 growth goes quite fine 🙂
-
pep.
Talking about the announcement :P
-
nyco-2
:-p
-
nyco-2
I gotta go, won't be able to do the minutes this time
-
pep.
nyco-2, plesae try to read commteam@ when you have some time
-
Guus
Board: are we still meeting today?
-
pep.
Please
-
Guus
ralphm MattJ Seve ?
-
MattJ
Here
-
Seve
Hello :)
- ralphm waves
-
Guus
full house
-
ralphm
0. Welcome
-
ralphm
Hi all, slightly delayed :-D
-
ralphm
Any additional items for the agenda?
-
MattJ
None from me
-
Guus
none here
-
pep.
nope
-
ralphm
1. Minute taker
-
pep.
If nobody I can do that afterwards
-
ralphm
Can somebody pick this up instead of nyco?
-
ralphm
Thanks pep
-
ralphm
2. Sponsors
-
ralphm
I'm almost done drafting the e-mails I promised. I will send them to the board list for review.
-
ralphm
Anything specific you'd like to put in there, in terms of funding things this year?
-
Guus
(none from me)
-
pep.
hmm, as an example, sure, I'd like to start discussions around that at least
-
Guus
We might want to avoid making the request to specific, which would tie us down.
-
ralphm
Sure, I'd note them as considerations.
-
pep.
Sprints is one that's in the process already. Sponsoring travel fees etc. to conferences I'd like to tackle at some point. Work in different teams that need it? iteam for example. Work on specifications that we deem necessary, etc.
-
ralphm
Without funding, making such choices might be harder.
-
ralphm
pep., I've already put in travel, sprints/meetups.
-
pep.
k
-
ralphm
And was indeed considering iteam
-
MattJ
sgtm
-
ralphm
(as in paying somebody to do work there, which I think was mentioned earlier)
-
Guus
we could put in a generic refernce to marketing
- ralphm nods
-
pep.
Yes marketing
-
pep.
The community manager nyco mentioned at summit
-
ralphm
I don't recall that. Can you summarize that a bit?
-
Guus
"we need marketing" 😃
-
pep.
That
-
ralphm
I meant specifically the community manager bit
-
Seve
😁
-
pep.
Somebody to be active on different social media platforms because commteam can't commit to it themselves
-
ralphm
I fully agreed on needing marketing :_D
-
ralphm
ok
-
ralphm
Thanks, I can work with that.
-
pep.
Even just a few hours a week
-
Guus
isn't Nyco teamlead of commteam
-
Guus
(hence the title that pep used)
-
ralphm
yes
-
ralphm
ok
-
ralphm
3. SCAM's Supporting Sprints proposal
-
ralphm
I've read the minutes on this. I'd indeed take this out of the SCAM budget. If that budget turns out to not be sufficient, it might be good to revise.
-
Guus
Is board in agreement that having compensation in some form is desirable?
-
pep.
Peter as the treasurer seems to say it's not an issue, and he's actually trying alternative ways to send money outside US
-
MattJ
I'm in favour of funding sprints (under the conditions of the proposal that's been put forward), and in favour of it coming from the SCAM budget, and in favour of increasing the SCAM budget if it's insufficient
-
ralphm
Guus, I'd say that if sprints, organized under the XSF "flag" incur costs, we should carry that.
-
MattJ
Obviously there should be a sensible cap on the number of events we fund per year, I think the proposal covered things like this fairly well
-
Guus
I'm in favor too.
-
ralphm
SCAM would get incoming sprints requests, assess costs, approve as a SCAM activity, and then arrange for refunding.
-
Guus
Having it taken out of the SCAM budget (which I dislike, but can agree with) does give us a natural cap / safety limit.
-
MattJ
Yes
-
Seve
Right
-
ralphm
Guus: why do you dislike that? The S in SCAM is for sprints.
-
pep.
I don't see an issue with covering this with SCAM. We can indeed revise the budget later
-
pep.
heh, such backronym :p
-
Guus
scam budget was intended for out of pocket costs, in my opinion. Adding this would make it more of a financial entity.
-
ralphm
pep: S{prints,ummits} Conferences and Meetups.
-
Guus
but, as I said - I don't feel very strong about this.
-
ralphm
Guus: well, no, SCAM budget up till now has mostly been for paying for stuff at the Summit / FOSDEM, including renting a van, and buying materials such as banners.
-
ralphm
I wouldn't count those as pocket costs.
-
MattJ
brb
-
Guus
ralphm I really don't think it's worth our time to discuss this.
-
Guus
I'm fine with it.
-
ralphm
Ok, good.
-
pep.
heh, I'd be interested to know what exactly goes into the scam budget
-
pep.
I'll raise that in scam@
-
ralphm
Since we are in agreement this is already covered by the SCAM budget, I don't think we need to take action right now.
-
ralphm
Other than me putting in some expenses :-D
-
Guus
hehe, that makes three of us 🙂
-
ralphm
Good.
-
ralphm
Since we're already delayed:
-
ralphm
4. AOB
-
Guus
do we want to do something around corona?
-
Guus
eg: advise to not have sprints?
-
Guus
(fwiw: I don't think so)
-
pep.
I think people are big enough to make their own decisions
-
Guus
agreed.
-
ralphm
I'd defer that to Sprint organisers.
-
pep.
We're not competent in this regard
-
Seve
> I'd defer that to Sprint organisers. That
-
ralphm
If the Summit would have been planned in the near future, it would surely be cancelled.
-
pep.
I don't think we've finished the discussion around board voting process etc., happy to defer to next week, but I'd like to come back to it at some point nonetheless
-
ralphm
pep., ok, let's do that next week.
-
Guus
right.
-
pep.
It should have been a 5mn talk but whatever
-
Guus
pep: maybe prepare on list?
-
Seve
Okay
-
ralphm
I do have to go to other meetings unfortunately.
-
Guus
now, or next week?
-
ralphm
5. Date of Next
-
Guus
+1w wfm
-
MattJ
wfm
-
Seve
Alright!
-
pep.
same here
-
ralphm
6. Close
-
ralphm
Thanks all!
-
MattJ
Thanks!
-
Seve
Take care!
-
pep.
Thanks
- ralphm bangs gavel (once retroactively, once now)
-
pep.
https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2020/mar/12/virtualchat/ Software Freedom Conservancy inviting people to chat :)
-
Daniel
The golden age of IM
-
jonas’
#corona?
-
rion
are we gonna have coronavirus XEP for April 1 ?
-
jonas’
I’m sceptical about putting out a humurous document about an ongoing pandemic killing people daily.
-
pep.
yeah
-
pep.
As an editor I'd definitely avoid that
-
rion
out guys already joking about deprecating handshakes for tcp
-
rion
too black humor?
-
jonas’
a matter of audience and placement
-
pep.
The TCP handshake is fun as a tweet
-
jonas’
yeah
-
jonas’
it’s not fun as a standards document
-
moparisthebest
for april 1st this year I'm going to propose advancing DoX to draft
-
moparisthebest
keep everyone guessing as to how serious it is
-
jonas’
and I can make fun of corona despite my father-in-law being most certainly within the 2% if he got infected, but I’d not be comfortable with a Humorous Track XEP
-
pep.
Humorous draft?
-
moparisthebest
no it's standards track
-
jonas’
pep., it’s Standards Track.
-
larma
moparisthebest, fwiw, we plan to implement it in Dino at some point
-
jonas’
moparisthebest, if you wanna be fun, build a DoX frontend for dnsdist
-
larma
to circumvent Tor not having UDP for DNS SRV lookups
-
moparisthebest
good use-case larma ! :)
-
Daniel
And Do(XT) is not good enough?✎ -
Daniel
And Do(HT) is not good enough? ✏
-
larma
Daniel, works as well, but why use HTTP in an XMPP client if we don't need to?
-
Daniel
Less rtt
-
larma
It's not a huge difference in implementation work
-
larma
Not really?
-
jonas’
Daniel, I guess that depends on whether you hold the connection or not
-
jonas’
I’d prefer DoT though
-
jonas’
it’s the least insane thing to do
-
moparisthebest
it's tricky, if you keep the XMPP connection up it's far less RTT/overhead than DoH, if you don't...
-
moparisthebest
what you really want to do is DoX over BOSH
-
jonas’
moparisthebest, problem is, though, when you need to do DNS lookups, you probably need to do that because you’re reconnecting. You’ll also have to cycle your DoX connection then.
-
Daniel
Realistically I'm not going to hold the connection uoen✎ -
Daniel
Realistically I'm not going to hold the connection upen ✏
-
Daniel
Especially since most times when I need srv records I just switched networks
-
moparisthebest
I think for initial SRV lookup that's right
-
Daniel
Or coming back from suspend or whatever
-
Daniel
Are there non-initial srv lookups ml✎ -
Daniel
Are there non-initial srv lookups? ✏
-
jonas’
I don’t think so
-
Ge0rG
*cough* 0198 resume *cough*
-
jonas’
I’d be surprised if DoX servers would support '198
-
jonas’
I mean, DoX servers for public use
-
moparisthebest
Daniel, I was about to say "not for a client" but, http upload, ICE, STUN, TURN etc ?
-
jonas’
none of that needs SRV
-
moparisthebest
but it needs DNS
-
jonas’
sure, but you can have that via Tor for TCP connections
-
jonas’
no need to do it yourself
-
Daniel
It's also questionable if you need stun or turn when connected over tor
-
moparisthebest
well I didn't exactly mean *only* over tor
-
moparisthebest
might be nice to have an XMPP client pull a firefox, let you hardcode IP+port to connect to for initial SRV bootstrap, and dns jid for all after-connection lookups, so no standard DNS ever comes from the client
-
jonas’
frankly, I don’t ever see a reason to prefer DoX or even DoH for non-browser software
-
jonas’
DoT is good enough
-
moparisthebest
extra connections, extra RTT
-
jonas’
you also need an extra connection for (initial) DoX
-
moparisthebest
just the once though
-
jonas’
same for DoT
-
jonas’
you can reuse your TLS connection for multiple requests
-
moparisthebest
that's only a maybe, in practice they'll disconnect you if you are quiet for any length of time
-
jonas’
I expect your DoX proxy to do the same
-
jonas’
and keeping the DoX connection alive is stupid, because you’ll need to ping it either way to keep it alive for NATs and stuff
-
jonas’
it’s expensive
-
jonas’
when you don’t need it, tear it down
-
moparisthebest
no? once you are connected you only keep the connection open to your server, then just exchange messages between dox jid and you
-
jonas’
ah, so you’re going to use your real JID to ask the DoX service?
-
jonas’
after you just asked for the SRV record?
-
jonas’
essentially de-anonymizing your initial request?
-
moparisthebest
I agree DoX doesn't have an advantage over DoH or DoT for initial SRV lookup
-
jonas’
I’m not convinced that associating your real JID with DNS lookups is a good idea
-
moparisthebest
JID, IP, what's the difference
-
moparisthebest
nothing says you are asking the same one either
-
jonas’
a huge when we’re talking about Tor
-
pep.
moparisthebest, "pull a firefox" :P
-
jonas’
moparisthebest, a JID is a stable identifier, an IP is not.
-
jonas’
if you’re a government or ISP, sure, you can do a lot with an IP
-
moparisthebest
eh, both those are shaky
-
moparisthebest
IP can be, JID may not be
-
jonas’
a JID is, period. Unless we’re talking about SASL ANONYMOUS, which will cut your connection after inactivity just like a DoT resolver will, to conserve resources
-
moparisthebest
maybe, maybe not
-
moparisthebest
I'm not convinced something@something.onion is an identifier you can tie back to an individual like an IP could be
-
jonas’
that’s assuming you’re connecting to an onion service. which will not be able to federate with lots of servers.
-
moparisthebest
we could also define something like "server de-identifying DoX IQs" or so, ie modify from=jid@domain to from=domain then put it back on reply
-
jonas’
ah, I want to write a generic IQ proxy XEP either way
-
moparisthebest
yea, I'd like to fix that (many servers not federating with .onion)
-
jonas’
in context of XEP-0433
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: you could write a generic XMPP proxy XEP.
-
Ge0rG
why only do IQs if you can do... ANYTHING!
-
moparisthebest
well, depending on the payload the other end probably cares about who sent it
-
moparisthebest
DoX should not, however
-
moparisthebest
I don't think a server should care about catering to evil DoX backends that send different answers to different JIDs :)
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, because the way I envision it it would be kind of like stateless NAT, so you need some context attached to the conversation. That means that message replies wouldn’t necessarily be routable
-
moparisthebest
but could be nice and make it opt-in for clients anyhow
-
jonas’
presence being even worse
-
jonas’
kind of like a generalised and reversed mod_client_proxy
-
jonas’
also standardised ;)
-
Ge0rG
just use sha256(real_jid)@proxy-component. Problem solved.
-
jonas’
how to revert that?
-
jonas’
(when the reply comes in)
-
moparisthebest
jonas’, ah, so like a client can specifically ask the component to "proxy this IQ to this JID for me please?" that would be ideal
-
moparisthebest
yea, if you do sha256(real_jid) you still have to keep a reverse lookup table, so it'd be better to use something the other end has no chance of reversing, a randomly generated per-account string or so
-
jonas’
you send your IQ to the component and the component sends it to the receiver
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: keep an eternal map ;)
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: how do you route the IQ reply? Or will you just keep all in-flight IQs in memory forever?
-
Ge0rG
Because, that never caused trouble in the past, you know.
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, in mod_client_proxy it’s easy, it’s 100% stateless. but it’s not anonymizing
-
moparisthebest
if each client has a stable identifier@proxy-component ^
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: yeah, you can't have both.
-
moparisthebest
but otherwise, hairy I guess
-
jonas’
in case of the proxy protocol, the only way would be to keep a temporary map (maybe generate a random ID per request?) and map based on that. and when the peer doesn’t reply in time, synthesize a specific timeout error
-
jonas’
moparisthebest, no need for identifier@, you can put it all in the IQ @id
-
moparisthebest
well it's 1 or the other right? identifier@ and stateless, or not and you have to keep track of IQs ?
-
jonas’
you can’t have it fully stateless
-
jonas’
(and nothing stops you from base64-encoding some kind of struct in the IQ @id and decoding that when translating back
-
moparisthebest
if bob@server 's proxy id was some-identifier-tied-to-bob@proxy-component, then it'd be fully stateless right?
-
jonas’
ahh, but that’d require registration with the proxy component
-
jonas’
and I’d rather not have people have persistent addresses behind the proxy
-
jonas’
though that’s actually an implementation detail
-
moparisthebest
yea, servers could rotate whenever
-
jonas’
the key part is specifying the protocol to wrap your IQ and letting the proxy handle it. how the proxy does the translation (and whether it, for example, requires registration or affiliation with a server or not) is up to the impl
-
moparisthebest
like it'd probably be sane to rotate every 24 hours but keep the last one active for incoming, or something
-
jonas’
there is no incoming after the IQ reply came back
-
moparisthebest
yea, but if you didn't want to track anything
-
jonas’
you have to track something at least
-
moparisthebest
tracking each IQ seems harder than just having a list of each JID that used you in the last 24 hours
-
jonas’
*shrug*
-
jonas’
implementation details!
-
moparisthebest
yep I think so... as long as the spec doesn't push you into a corner, sounds like it'd be fine though
-
moparisthebest
rion, "joking about deprecating handshakes for tcp" my synpathies for anyone using it afterwards
-
jonas’
QUIC?
-
Alex
hey guys, its meeting time. Are you ready?
-
Ge0rG
huh what?
-
Alex
membership
-
Alex
approving our voting results
-
Guus
ack
-
Daniel
I'm here
-
Alex
great
- Alex bangs the gavel
-
pep.
!
-
pep.
Just while Macron is speaking on TV!
-
jonas’
whoopsie
-
jonas’
totally missed it, good thing I voted already ;)
-
Alex
here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-03-12
-
jonas’
dinner time now, won’t attend actively
-
Alex
pep., cannot compete with your presedent ;-)
-
pep.
It's fine, probably bs as usual :)
-
Alex
1) Call for Quorum
-
Ge0rG
looks like I voted already as well. Phew!
-
Alex
as you can see 29 members voted via proxy, so we have a quorum
- Zash just voted
-
Alex
2) Items Subject to a Vote
-
Alex
new and returnign members, you can see the Wiki page for that here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q1_2020
-
Alex
3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
-
Alex
memberbot is still online, so if someone has not voted yet this is your time now ;-)
-
Alex
zash, got your vote 3 minutes ago
-
Zash
:D
-
Alex
anyone else?
-
Alex
otherwise I will shuitdown the bot and work on the results
-
pep.
Alex, one sec, linkmauve is on it :P
-
pep.
Link Mauve, ^
-
Link Mauve
Yes, I’m on it.
-
Alex
no rush, nobody is waiting for you 😂
-
Alex
got your vote
-
Alex
more coming?
-
Link Mauve
There, I’m done!
-
Alex
okay
-
Alex
will shut down then and start counting
-
Link Mauve
Adding to memberbot’s TODO: accept LMC.
-
Alex
okay, I am ready
-
Alex
4) Announcement of Voting Results
-
Alex
when you reload the page at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-03-12#Announcement_of_Voting_Results you can see the results
-
Alex
all applicants and reappliers were accepted
-
Alex
congrats to everyone
-
pep.
Thanks Alex
-
Alex
5) Any Other Business?
-
pep.
And welcome emus :)
-
Alex
6) Formal Adjournment
-
Alex
I motion that we adjourn
-
pep.
\o/
-
Link Mauve
Thanks Alex, and congrats everyone. :)
-
Guus
+!✎ -
Guus
+1 ✏
- Alex bangs the gavel
-
Guus
Thanks Alex!
-
emus
\o/ Hello, and thank you!
-
Link Mauve
emus, welcome to the XSF!
-
Neustradamus
🤘
-
emus
Link Mauve: Thanks 👋🎉
-
jonas’
welcome emus
-
jonas’
all current council members got at least -2
-
emus
jonas’: Hello hello, thanks
-
Daniel
> all current council members got at least -2 We are too spammy with our Last calls 😂
-
jonas’
that’s clearly the editors fault
-
jonas’
though all the editors also got at least -2
-
emus
Daniel: Better dont read the next Newsletter 😅
-
vanitasvitae
Welcome Emus!
-
emus
😊 Muchas gracias!
-
pep.
I guess so, don't remember exactly how that works
-
pep.
ah fail pm
-
pep.
Sorry but that Conversations "feature" kills every single time✎ -
pep.
Sorry but that Conversations "feature" kills me every single time ✏
-
Ge0rG
🤐
-
pep.
https://act.eff.org/action/protect-our-speech-and-security-online-reject-the-graham-blumenthal-bill For US citizens. And for the rest, please send that to your friends in the US.
-
lovetox
i think they gonna have other problems coming next week :/
-
emus
lovetox: are talking about corona or what did I miss?
-
lovetox
yes
-
lovetox
i think it will hit the US pretty hard
-
lovetox
i think their health care system is in really bad shape to handle this
-
emus
Yes, just thought the same
-
Daniel
Good thing they have good leadership
-
pep.
lovetox, and bernie is less and less likely to win. We're going to laugh when we see their health care system fail to handle all of this..