XSF Discussion - 2020-03-15


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  131. jonas’ so, completely unrelated to recent events, if I wanted to set up a reliable group video chat thing for friends&family, what would I do?
  132. Daniel The only non-skype thing I have experience with is jitsi meet
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  134. Daniel Only ever used the hosted version though
  135. jonas’ Daniel, what’s the experience?
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  137. jonas’ I expect the hosted one to get into certain difficulties soon
  138. Seve I'm using Nextcloud + Nextcloud Talk. The maximum people I tested it with was four.
  139. jonas’ nextcloud I already have
  140. Ge0rG maybe I should re-evaluate setting up jitsi on my private prosody
  141. Seve Works super good on mobile (Android)
  142. Ge0rG can you use the jitsi meet app with a self-hosted instance yet?
  143. Daniel One time I couldn't get it to work but when we tried Skype afterwards it didn't really work either. (network issues on the other end I belive) but when it did work it was always ok
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  146. jonas’ hm, I can’t find any documentation on how to set it up so far
  147. jonas’ seems like I should take notes
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  149. Seve > nextcloud I already have Not good enough for you? You can send links and so, without an account.
  150. jonas’ Seve, I’d prefer to go with XMPP before trying Nextcloud Talk
  151. jonas’ though I *do* wonder how well such a videobridge/jitsi thing will work behind a NAT (on the server side.):/
  152. jonas’ I do run out of IP addresses
  153. jonas’ though I can probably argue for that being of shared value
  154. Ge0rG wasn't one of the STUN things silently using google servers?
  155. Zash jonas’: There's a docker thing for jitsi meet that's not too complicated to get running
  156. Seve I agree, but anyway you don't have integration with IM clients anyway... Quite annoying
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  158. jonas’ Zash, I don’t have docker on my servers
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  161. jonas’ Seve, I can live with it requiring some kind of special client fo rnw
  162. jonas’ Seve, I can live with it requiring some kind of special client for now
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  166. jonas’ okay, let’s use the "broadcast" address of the network. what could possibly go wrong
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  168. Ge0rG jonas’: other boxes not finding the default gateway any more? ;)
  169. jonas’ Ge0rG, they’re statically configured :>
  170. Ge0rG jonas’: static ARP?
  171. jonas’ no
  172. jonas’ just static routes
  173. jonas’ I’m already using the "network address" on one of the boxes with no issues so far
  174. Ge0rG OTOH, there was a sysctl in linux a loooong time ago to ignore packets to your IP address sent to ethernet broadcast, because it uncloaked promiscous mode devices
  175. jonas’ Ge0rG, the gateway has static routes for each of the "funny" /32 addresses as onlink routes on the interface. all boxes already have static routes to the /32 of the gateway, because it’s not even part of the /29 they’re in
  176. jonas’ IPv4 is expensive
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  178. jonas’ and I’m not going to pay 1 EUR / month for an address I’m not going to use
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  201. Ge0rG I'm still wondering how jitsi videobridge integrates with an existing prosody.
  202. jonas’ I’m figuring that out right now
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  205. Ge0rG jonas’: will you blog it? :D
  206. jonas’ I may
  207. Ge0rG I'm interested in learning the steps needed to run my own videobridge on debian + proper prosody
  208. jonas’ me too!
  209. Ge0rG jonas’: so write them down as you do, pretty-please :)
  210. jonas’ will do
  211. jonas’ ugh
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  213. jonas’ identities: category='component' type='conference' [en] 'JitsiVideobridge'
  214. jonas’ so there’? that
  215. jonas’ so there’s that
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  245. jonas’ it is *very* opinionated about which (sub-)domain names you use :/
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  247. jonas’ Ge0rG, https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet/blob/master/doc/manual-install.md
  248. jonas’ this seems accurate AFAICT so far
  249. jonas’ it also means I have to start over
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  251. jonas’ though that doesn’t use debian packages
  252. jonas’ I love how they tell you to forward the port 4443, which isn’t even bound to by jvb
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  293. jonas’ I seem to have a working jitsi meet
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  296. jonas’ TIL: jitsi-meet will make a room non-anonymous when it joins
  297. jonas’ so you’ll want a dedicated conference domain
  298. jonas’ *sigh*
  299. moparisthebest I briefly looked at setting up jitsi-meet with existing prosody and quickly decided my own https://appr.tc/ instance would be easier, currently working on docker container that just spins it all up
  300. jonas’ what’s that?
  301. jonas’ the link you gave is incredibly non-descriptive ;)
  302. moparisthebest the main thing jitsi meet is missing is I can't just send people a link, it won't work in a mobile browser
  303. vanitasvitae don't they have a mobile app?
  304. vanitasvitae but yeah I get the point of "not just send a link" on mobile
  305. moparisthebest https://github.com/webrtc/apprtc / https://github.com/Piasy/WebRTC-Docker (this docker container isn't very suitable, runs 3 different http servers on different ports etc...)
  306. moparisthebest vanitasvitae, yep they do, so now I have to send a link, plus a link to my custom compiled jitsi meet app? meh
  307. Zash I thought the main thing Jitsi Meet was missing is that it doesn't make noise and show popups
  308. emus vanitasvitae: hitsi has, also on fdroid
  309. vanitasvitae I think you can set the instance
  310. vanitasvitae right?
  311. moparisthebest oh, possibly, still that's a pretty large hurdle compared to "click this link"
  312. pep. "moparisthebest> the main thing jitsi meet is missing is I can't just send people a link, it won't work in a mobile browser" Yes you can? I do that all the time
  313. moparisthebest I just tested it yesterday and it wouldn't work in a mobile browser, am I holding it wrong?
  314. jonas’ waiting for DNS to propagate to be able to test >.>
  315. pep. If they use a browser then the instance might redirect them to downloading an app on mobile, but you can certainly remove that
  316. Zash "click this link" is apparently completely useless, gotta show a popup with "someone's calling, [answer]"
  317. moparisthebest I just tried on https://meet.jit.si/
  318. pep. moparisthebest, what device
  319. pep. On mobile it might annoy you indeed
  320. pep. I never have an issue on desktop
  321. moparisthebest firefox mobile on lineageos (android 9) on a samsung galaxy GS5
  322. moparisthebest oh yea, it works great on desktop
  323. moparisthebest at this second I'm after minimal setup that *just works* on all browsers including mobile
  324. moparisthebest appr.tc fits that bill, jitsi meet doesn't, I couldn't find anything else that might
  325. pep. Is that self-hosted?
  326. moparisthebest *that* instance is hosted by evil google, but it can be self hosted
  327. vanitasvitae just checked the jitsi app. Setting my own instance was super easy
  328. vanitasvitae it is so sad that I had far better video quality when switching from wifi to mobile 🙁
  329. vanitasvitae #developingInternetCountryThings
  330. Guus vanitasvitae same here
  331. jonas’ someone mother’s wifi?
  332. Guus no. Fiber.
  333. vanitasvitae no, mine 🙁
  334. jonas’ hm, so jitsi-meet
  335. jonas’ I got it set up, but it’s rather different than what I expected
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  337. Guus I wonder if it 'optimizes' the connection because of NAT and mulitple hops in my meshed wifi or something
  338. jonas’ AFAICT, I now got an open relay for WebRTC traffic
  339. jonas’ I expected it to be configurable in such a way that at least the host needs to authentiacte against my existing domain
  340. Guus jonas’ you can protect things with accounts etc - not sure how sturdy that is though.
  341. moparisthebest most of the time that's handled by secrets and hmac jonas’
  342. Guus but yeah, the default install allows anyone to use it.
  343. jonas’ hm
  344. moparisthebest appr.tc / coturn supports it out of the box like https://github.com/Piasy/WebRTC-Docker/blob/master/apprtc-server/ice.js#L5 + https://github.com/Piasy/WebRTC-Docker/blob/master/apprtc-server/turnserver.conf#L7
  345. pep. jonas’, yeah I've done that in the past, you can use xmpp auth
  346. jonas’ pep., interesting
  347. jonas’ moparisthebest, what?
  348. jonas’ moparisthebest, you seem to have missed the point
  349. moparisthebest it's still semi-open, just time limited, but you should be able to do something similar with xmpp
  350. moparisthebest jonas’, I'm saying you don't need coturn to do anything but authenticate an hmac, not contact your xmpp server/db, then it's just making the xmpp bit that hands out the secret do that
  351. jonas’ moparisthebest, I’m not using coturn though
  352. jonas’ I’ve got a jitsi-meet setup
  353. moparisthebest jitsi-meet doesn't use coturn?
  354. jonas’ nope
  355. moparisthebest nevermind then, but surprising
  356. jonas’ I was surprised, too
  357. jonas’ but they only need 10000/udp and 443/tcp, and those are bound directly to the Java process
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  363. jonas’ ugh
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  394. jonas’ ok, so the jitsi-meet doesn’t work at all.
  395. jonas’ I don’t even see it trying to send traffic to the bridge
  396. jonas’ and p2p seems to fail too
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  403. jonas’ hm, no public support MUC either?
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  407. Zash Oh is that why we get so many Jitsi Meet questions in the Prosody room?
  408. Guus probably.
  409. jonas’ meh
  410. Guus They are very active on their discourse instance - but that seems to be having trouble today.
  411. jonas’ also, discourse is unusable to me
  412. jonas’ also, I got used to IM community support
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  416. Guus fwiw: if you want to spin up basic functionality without jumping through any hoops: install Openfire plus its ofMeet plugin. It'll give you limited features, and is outdated by at least a year - but you can set it up in 2 minutes.
  417. Guus I showed that in last years' XSF summit.
  418. jonas’ I specifically do not want that, I want it to integrate in my existing setup
  419. Guus totally understandable. Just wanting to give people some options that in these times are looking for a quick fix.
  420. Guus doing a separate install will give you better features, more performance, etc, etc.
  421. jonas’ I also don’t get how this is supposed to even work without any traffic to the videobridge
  422. jonas’ I’m wondering whether it gets confused about the A record for the domain not pointing to the videobridge
  423. Guus I didnt' read the backlog
  424. jonas’ or about having both a private and a public IPv4
  425. Guus but basically, the web app will talk to the video bridge over UDP or TCP
  426. jonas’ it doesn’t
  427. jonas’ zero traffic to that IP
  428. Guus I think on port 10000 UDP with a fallback to 443 TCP with a fallback to 4443 TCP if 443 can't be bound to by the process.
  429. Guus well, for 1-on-1 conversations, the webapp defaults to peer-to-peer
  430. jonas’ aha!
  431. jonas’ that’s a bit of information which is interesting
  432. Guus add a third participant to force things over the videobridge
  433. jonas’ and what if p2p fails for whatever reason?
  434. Guus unsure
  435. jonas’ where do I get a third participant now
  436. Guus note thta I've been out of the loop for 12 months too.
  437. Guus new incognito tab.
  438. jonas’ smart!
  439. Guus been there done that _a lot_ 😃
  440. jonas’ oh, look at this traffic
  441. Guus ta-daaaah.
  442. Guus ok, off to prepare dinner.
  443. Guus poke me if you need more help
  444. jonas’ lots of inbound traffic on the videobridge, but no outbound
  445. jonas’ also, it doesn’t arrive there
  446. Guus nat weirdness?
  447. jonas’ no, nevermind
  448. Guus you can configure it to ... ok.
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  450. Guus ICE negotiation can take some time
  451. jonas’ my SSH session with tcpdump just died
  452. jonas’ so I see lots of inbound traffic, but virtually no outbound traffic on the videobridge
  453. Guus tcpdump will be pretty verbose with webrtc data 😃
  454. jonas’ approximately 1:10, maybe 1:20
  455. Guus maybe this:
  456. Guus you want to prevent the device of each end-user to have to process the raw data of all participants - which would not scale, and bring commercial laptops to their knees fast. the JVB will therefor accept all inbound data, process that, and push an optimized stream back out.
  457. Guus there's webrtc mumbojumbo for this that I fail to remember, but that's the gist of it.
  458. Guus iirc, you upload three video stream (thumbnail, medium and full resolution, somesuch), but participants are only interesting in one (depending on who's talking, etc)
  459. Guus so there's a lot of room for optimization there.
  460. jonas’ Guus, right, however, the data currently transmitted from my device would barely suffice for audio
  461. Guus (take all of this with a grain of salt - I'm far from an expert and I've not engaged with the devs for months)
  462. jonas’ most certainly not for three clients
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  464. Guus did you mute video?
  465. jonas’ I disabled video to make tcpdump less verbose
  466. jonas’ yeah
  467. Guus maaaybe it's not actually sending data then?
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  469. jonas’ yes, but why ;)
  470. Guus because you muted it?
  471. jonas’ but I didn’t mute audio
  472. Guus do you hear audio?
  473. jonas’ no
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  475. jonas’ I don’t see any outbound traffic on my machine for the audio which is suggested should be going out by the VU-meter bars in my avatar thumbnail thing
  476. Guus then I don't know 🙂
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  478. Guus as I said, got to prepare dinner
  479. jonas’ also it show bitrate etc as N/A when I hover over my avatar
  480. Guus also: covid update from government in a couple of minutes
  481. jonas’ yeah, good luck and have fun
  482. Guus tx
  483. Guus that n/a bitrate was always there - confused me a lot
  484. jonas’ oh, maybe it uses (or tries to use) P2P for audio always?
  485. Guus but this is pretty much where my knowledge ends too
  486. jonas’ it’s a *video*bridge after all
  487. Guus don't think so, but maybe.
  488. Guus ok, I'm out.
  489. jonas’ bon appetite
  490. Guus Poke Dele when he's in here - he's familiar with Jitsi.
  491. Guus tx
  492. jonas’ okay, it’s not a purely local issue -- using meet.jit.si gives me a nice audio feedback loop instantly :)
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  555. jonas’ okay, so apparently, jitsi-meet wants that it runs on the same hostname as it advertises
  556. jonas’ this is stupid
  557. Zash Oh yeah, I remember it being very picky about names of the various parts.
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  559. jonas’ can’t do that on my infra without doing nasty things
  560. jonas’ like having two network namespaces with the same hostname
  561. jonas’ or installing third-party packages on the main box
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  564. moparisthebest I appreciate the reassurance my "this looks too complicated" was correct :/
  565. jonas’ it’s too undocumented mostly
  566. jonas’ A/V is complex, all those simple WebRTC apps are a golang-esque simplification which don’t hold in edge cases (non-web, for example)
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  568. moparisthebest here simplify is a good thing, I can send a link over xmpp or sms or anything, and anyone with a web browser can click it and have it work
  569. moparisthebest not "here's a link that will work in a desktop browser, but if you are on mobile, please find a way to install this jitsi meet app, and also go into settings and change the default hostname, and maybe then it might work"
  570. moparisthebest you realize that sounds insane right?
  571. jonas’ moparisthebest, all depends on your usecase
  572. jonas’ installing the app was trivial
  573. jonas’ even for me on f-droid
  574. jonas’ it takes a full URL nowadays, so no need to change the hostname
  575. moparisthebest how's the iOS app?
  576. moparisthebest now I also need to know what os my contact is currently on?
  577. jonas’ I don’t care about iOS
  578. moparisthebest why doesn't it *just work* in a mobile browser too?
  579. jonas’ on my phone it probably wouldn’t work, even if they tried, because it already OOMs when you open two or three normal broswer tabs at once.
  580. jonas’ using a dedicated app without the javascript bloat is a much saner way
  581. Zash But does it ring?
  582. moparisthebest my phone is 6 years old and I can run hundreds of tabs in firefox mobile *and* this video/audio webrtc thing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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  614. jonas’ moparisthebest, good for you!
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