XSF Discussion - 2020-03-25


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  194. oxpa guys, any chances xmpp.jp admins are here? I have troubles reaching conference.xmpp.jp from jabber.ru and find out what the problem is.
  195. oxpa or may be you can ask xmpp.jp guys contact me through twitter or directly at oxpa@jabber.ru?
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  211. Ge0rG oxpa: Contact Info> admin: mailto:support@xmpp.jp https://www.xmpp.jp/contact abuse: mailto:support@xmpp.jp https://www.xmpp.jp/contact support: mailto:support@xmpp.jp https://www.xmpp.jp/contact
  212. Ge0rG oxpa: if you have trouble contacting them via s2s, they will have trouble contacting you as well ;)
  213. oxpa no-no, s2s works per se. I can contact any user@xmpp.jp. Only conferences 'behave'
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  216. oxpa also, i wrote aletter to support@xmpp.jp - no luch
  217. oxpa also, i wrote aletter to support@xmpp.jp - no luck
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  264. moparisthebest I hate asking this... does anyone know of a facebook messenger transport? I of course tried searching but can only find articles about facebook turning off XMPP support years ago
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  266. pep. nothing in libpurple?
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  269. Ge0rG Last time I used spectrum2
  270. moparisthebest ah may be https://github.com/dequis/purple-facebook/wiki "Protocol: Facebook (NOT Facebook (XMPP))"
  271. moparisthebest that was another problem, every time I found some integration, it was XMPP based, which no longer works :'( terrible
  272. moparisthebest facebook has a newish "kids messenger" app that uses the parent's facebook for access control, and wife keeps getting invites for my kids, meanwhile I haven't had much traction in "just have them install Conversations instead" department :'(
  273. Zash Snikket?
  274. moparisthebest 3.
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  277. moparisthebest oops, well it's main features appear to be "stickers" and "video chat with stupid overlays" with text chat way down on the list, not sure if XMPP can compete in those departments
  278. Zash Of course not
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  283. moparisthebest mainly XMPP is lacking in the "creepy spying and data collection by facebook" department though
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  354. Daniel When I configure something via data forms. For example a muc or a pubsub node. And I send an incomplete data form. Will the missing fields be left untouched or configured to the forms default?
  355. MattJ Guess
  356. MattJ and whatever you guess, we can document
  357. MattJ ;)
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  359. MattJ I'm not aware of any text around this, I think it probably depends on context, but I wouldn't rely on it being the same across implementations
  360. MattJ The "depends on context" thing comes from the fact that I believe XEP-0004 primarily grew out of a protocol that was designed for presentation
  361. MattJ rather than machine-to-machine configuration
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  367. larma apropos data forms: In XEP-0068 it says that "If the FORM_TYPE field is not type="hidden", it does not have the special meaning defined herein." and "If the FORM_TYPE field is not hidden, it MUST be ignored as a context indicator.". In XEP-0004 it says that "For data forms of type "submit", inclusion of the 'type' attribute is OPTIONAL". So, for data forms of type "submit" it still seems to be required to add the type="hidden" for FORM_TYPE according to XEP-0068, yet most clients seem to not send it and most servers seem to ignore that - and many XEPs also don't do it accordingly in their examples. Should we note in XEP-0068 that specifying type="hidden" is optional in forms of type "submit"?
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  370. lovetox on this occassion i want to point to issue 1511 !
  371. lovetox :D
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  374. MattJ Ha, I missed that
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  376. lovetox Daniel, but how would you come into this situation, do you want to reduce traffic and not requesting the Data Form from the server? rather just send a incomplete one where you know some fields will probably be supported?
  377. Zash 1511 in what repo?
  378. Daniel lovetox: the library I'm using weirdly doesn't have a method to submit a form / and or change only one specific value in a previously downloaded form
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  380. Zash How about a left-out field preserves the existing value, or the default in case you're creating something.
  381. Zash Now let's discuss (nothing) vs <field/> vs <field><value/></field>
  382. lovetox Zash a issue on your tracker
  383. Zash Ah that
  384. lovetox but since you include a register fields as backup for clients that dont support dataforms, i guess this issue was not discovered until now :)
  385. Zash Isn't this more on-topic in the Prosody roomq
  386. Zash s/q/?/
  387. lovetox oh damn
  388. lovetox i thought i was in the prosody room
  389. lovetox because i saw you and mattj :D
  390. lovetox sorry for the offtopic
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  462. flow larma, I'd love to discuss this but failed to follow the question
  463. flow what in xep68 makes type=hidden required in submit?
  464. larma 0068 says that FORM_TYPE does not have any meaning and MUST be ignored as a context indicator if it's not type=hidden. Thus when submitting a form, adding FORM_TYPE without type=hidden is same as not adding it.
  465. Zash This seems silly somehow
  466. larma agree, my suggestion would be that we state in 0068 that in forms with type='submit' the field type='hidden' is optional
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  468. larma because that's what we do in practice anyway 😉
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  470. larma it's also codified in examples in many XEPs
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  474. Zash Fine with me. PR it?
  475. Zash types being optional in type=submit forms is funky in its own ways
  476. flow Tbf I still don't see the issue, but if you agree on it and maybe the PR makes it clear
  477. flow Zash, why?
  478. flow (assuming you are talking about FORM_TYPES?)
  479. Zash Context of https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0128.html
  480. Zash Oh those are result
  481. larma great, so it's invalid form according to 0004 😉
  482. Zash flow: Imagine you get a form with a bunch of <field>s, none of which have type set. Fields can have 0, 1 or more <value>s.
  483. Zash > For data forms of type "submit", inclusion of the 'type' attribute is OPTIONAL, since the form-processing entity is assumed to understand the data types associated with forms that it processes.
  484. Zash Sensible
  485. larma yes, it's ok for submit, not for any other forms
  486. Zash So .. no problem then?
  487. flow (ignore me)
  488. larma well, xep 0068 overwrites that part of 0004 by saying that if it doesn't have type='hidden' it shall not be considered as 0068 FORM_TYPE
  489. flow ahh I think now I got what larma means
  490. flow but for submit the FORM_TYPE can be ignored by the receiving entity anyways
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  492. flow is that I would assume
  493. larma it might be, yes
  494. larma but then it is also optional to send it
  495. larma and I don't think that's the case in all scenarios either
  496. flow probably true
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  498. larma https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#requestvoice
  499. flow the question is if there is a link to the previous form somewhere in the outer shell of the submited form
  500. larma ^ relies on FORM_TYPE = "http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#request" yet doesn't set type='hidden'
  501. Zash larma, but type=submit and the form is supposed to be understood by the receiver
  502. lovetox not sure why the form type can be ignored in a submit form, does this assume all forms are only sent as IQ and the server is able to track what context the form has?
  503. flow Zash, how can the receiver identify the form if he is supposed to ignore FORM_TYPE?
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  505. Zash Tho it makes it tricky if you want to add more kinds of those flows
  506. lovetox what if someone sends me a form as message, and i send the form back as message
  507. lovetox how would the receiver ever get the context of the form?
  508. flow lovetox, in general they can be tracked, but larma just provided an counterexample
  509. lovetox not as message, the receiver would have to place some hidden tracking id into the form
  510. lovetox also a message allows for multiple forms in the same message
  511. Zash Hm, how did we implemente that
  512. flow Zash, probably by looking at FORM_TYPE (and not following the strict interpretation of xep68 § 4.3)
  513. lovetox larma, thats clearly a error in the example
  514. larma flow, to be fair, according to XEP 0045 the only form that you can send by message is the voice request form, still that would be rather crazy code to assume all message[type=normal]+form[type=submit] to a muc bare jid is to be considered a voice request or approval
  515. flow larma, yep
  516. larma and I bet servers do check the FORM_TYPE 😉
  517. Zash Yup, it checks the FORM_TYPE
  518. flow lovetox, besides that there a probably more examples like these in the xep, i'd also assume that this is typical behavior in the wild
  519. flow bbl
  520. larma Zash, and also accept it when not having type='hidden' I assume?
  521. lovetox hm what do you mean, i get many forms i never saw a server send me formtype with type != hidden
  522. lovetox that would obviously result in the client showing this field to the user
  523. lovetox because its not hidden
  524. lovetox really i impl forms since years and we have many workflows with forms, and this never ever happend even once
  525. lovetox so not buying that argument that people dont set the type in the wild
  526. Zash larma: Yeah it ignores the type.
  527. lovetox and this rule make sense
  528. lovetox if its no hidden, its presented to the user
  529. lovetox as editable field
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  532. lovetox this means he could change the context on the submit
  533. flow larma> agree, my suggestion would be that we state in 0068 that in forms with type='submit' the field type='hidden' is optional +1
  534. larma lovetox: this is only about forms with type=submit, which you normally don't display in user interfaces
  535. flow FORM_TYPE feels like a displaced hack anyways. I wonder why do don't have a form-namespace attribute in <{jabber:x:data}x/>
  536. Zash When does a server even look at a form of any type but submit?
  537. larma lovetox, You display type=form and type=result and in those it should still be required to have it hidden because we don't want to display it to users
  538. lovetox but what you now are saying, type submit is never shown in a GUI
  539. lovetox can we make that assumption?
  540. Zash Sending a type=submit form to someone that was not expecting it .. seems unlikely to me
  541. lovetox ok but there is a type=result
  542. Zash And if they're expecting it then they should already have the form locally, and thus know the form type
  543. Zash type=result require <field type=...> right?
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  546. lovetox hm no when i read it correctly
  547. lovetox only form needs type
  548. lovetox everything else MAY include types
  549. lovetox and submit its OPTIONAL
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  551. Zash Mabye it needs to be clarified that you would never send a from type=submit to an entity that doesn't already know what the form looks like
  552. lovetox i scrolled back but i dont get how or where this is a problem, how did this question get raised?
  553. Zash Normal flow would be that I send you a form-from, then you return a submit-form, and I give you back a result form.
  554. Zash flow: Agree on the hacky feeling.
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  557. Zash Inconsistent to include the field type on the other field in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#example-80
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  564. larma http://www.aptest.com/standards/htmldiff/htmldiff.pl?oldfile=https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0068.html&newfile=https://larma.de/xeps/xep-0068.html
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  568. Zash 👍️
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