XSF Communications Team - 2019-02-26

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  18. jc I still want to create a pubsub module for converse.js that can be used to add comments to a website
  19. jc Just don't have the time at all 😒
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  56. pep. jc, yeah helping on that pubsub thing is also in my todo somewhere. That would force people to get XMPP accounts, so we also need to work on the onboarding story I guess
  57. jc Converse already supports OAuth login, so that could be extended upon to make it easier for people to comment
  58. pep. Hmm, would that application be attached to the blogger's XMPP server or sth?
  59. jc Could provide a hosted service and if people want to set it up themselves they can as well
  60. pep. How does the OAuth thing work? You can limit authorized providers right?
  61. jc yes
  62. pep. Ok. That would still mean duplication (of accounts) I guess, if some people use the hosted service, and some others use self-hosted services. People using oauth would create accounts on all of these instances
  63. pep. *confusion ensues*
  64. jc Not if federation is enabled
  65. pep. How do I know as a self-hoster what is the identity authority for the guy using oauth?
  66. jc Why do you care?
  67. jc If you're federating you don't have anything like that for other XMPP servers
  68. pep. I don't understand
  69. jc You need an XMPP server which supports OAuth login, so ultimately it is still an XMPP account
  70. pep. Sure
  71. jc And if you federate, then there's not much difference between an OAuth account or a normal account
  72. pep. There is
  73. pep. Well
  74. pep. Ok we're not aligned here
  75. jc Ah, you mean the client doesn't allow all authority providers
  76. jc well, then that's the way it is
  77. pep. No I'm saying,
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  80. pep. HosterA, HosterB, Github, userA. userA first creates an account at HosterA using their Github identity,
  81. pep. They now have access to AccountsA
  82. pep. userA goes to HosterB, do they create an account? What if they don't understand anything at XMPP and they just try to login using OAuth again, creating AccountB on HosterB
  83. pep. How does HosterB knows in the first place that AccountA is even a thing
  84. jc Depends on how HosterB is set up
  85. jc But yes, it could happen
  86. pep. That's why I was talking about account duplication, federation or not
  87. pep. Or you'd create another big node of users, that hosted service
  88. jc Comments aren't federated currently anyway, so either you have a centralized account on Disquss, or on each site that uses its own comments you have a new account
  89. pep. If you look at things on the web, that's true
  90. pep. If you look at things done in XMPP currently, that's less true
  91. jc Yes, I was thinking of having a de facto XMPP server handling OAuth accounts, and people could delegate to that
  92. jc And if they really want to self-host OAuth accounts, then they can, then there's account duplication
  93. pep. Well the best would be for github to have their own account
  94. pep. Well the best would be for github to have their own xmpp server
  95. pep. Best, yes and no
  96. jc The way I set up OAuth is for each OAuth provider to have it's own VirtualHost on the Prosody server
  97. pep. That would be yet another huge hub of users
  98. pep. Rigt
  99. jc And you could configure converse.js to use those hosts by default
  100. pep. Rigth
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  102. pep. That doesn't really solve my problem, but then I don't know if much can be done for that either
  103. jc what is your problem?
  104. SouL Having all users at the same place?
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  106. pep. SouL, that's a problem that arises while trying to solve my problem :/
  107. pep. My first issue is,
  108. pep. I would like userA to be able to reuse the first account they created on HosterA, while not especially be XMPP-savvy
  109. pep. I would like userA to be able to reuse the first account they created on HosterA, while not especially being XMPP-savvy
  110. jc That's fine, as long as the client is using the default configuration
  111. jc Then it'll route Github logins to the right XMPP sever
  112. pep. And I don't want to limit userA to the one big hoster out there
  113. jc Well, that's really the issue πŸ™‚ In that case, they shouldn't use OAuth, and 99.99% of the people who use OAuth wouldn't care about it IMO
  114. pep. True..
  115. jc By using OAuth they're indicating that they don't care
  116. pep. But then,
  117. pep. Do "we" the community "design" somebody who's going to play the github identity provider? :/
  118. pep. Because that's essentially what you're saying no?
  119. jc I'm not thinking of doing this for the XSF
  120. pep. sure, XSF or not
  121. jc This is a personal project, and maybe I can charge for hosting
  122. jc And I'd be happy to work with people on it
  123. jc Since I'm overloaded as it it
  124. jc Since I'm overloaded as it is
  125. pep. Yeah that's also something I'd like to work on tbh
  126. SouL It is something we need, so..
  127. jc I'm looking for sustainable ways to work on Converse.js, and that means generating income
  128. jc Not just for me, but for everyone involved of course
  129. pep. One other thing, you say "as long as the client is using the default configuration, then it'll router Github logins to the right XMPP server", that means you expect self-hoster to also route github logins to that one big hub?
  130. jc pep. Well, once you have time, let me know and we can discuss how to go about it
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  132. jc pep. Unless they configure the client to not do it
  133. jc It's the default
  134. jc Most people want to allow people to log in with OAuth, because most bloggers want to lower the barrier to entry for spam
  135. jc Most people want to allow commenters to log in with OAuth, because most bloggers want to lower the barrier to entry for spam
  136. jc Most people want to allow commenters to log in with OAuth, because most bloggers want to lower the barrier to entry for comments (haha
  137. jc Most people want to allow commenters to log in with OAuth, because most bloggers want to lower the barrier to entry for comments (haha)
  138. jc Freudian slip
  139. pep. :D
  140. jc I was thinking about spam
  141. pep. Ok, so really the identity provider I'm trusting is BigHoster, not Github
  142. jc You're trusting BigHoster, but I'm not sure it's correct to call it the identity provider
  143. jc Github is the identity provider
  144. pep. In the case of XMPP it isn't. as self-hoster if I have them create an account on bighoster, I'm trusting bighoster :P
  145. pep. I don't even have to know about github
  146. jc You're gonna have an order of magnitude more spam from normal XMPP accounts, than from OAuth/BigHoster accounts πŸ™‚
  147. jc true
  148. pep. Yeah it's not a case of "I'm worried about spam"
  149. jc what are you worried about?
  150. pep. Just trying to understand and make things clear
  151. pep. Trust is always an issue :P
  152. jc Any other XMPP server you're federating you have to trust
  153. jc BigHoster is just another one
  154. jc Any other XMPP server you're federating with you have to trust
  155. pep. True
  156. pep. btw, unrelated, these 4 messages above were supposed to be LMC?
  157. jc Yes
  158. pep. I only got the first one corrected
  159. pep. 20:40:59 jc1> Most people want to allow commenters to log in with OAuth, because most bloggers want to lower the barrier to entry for spam 20:41:07 jc> Most people want to allow commenters to log in with OAuth, because most bloggers want to lower the barrier to entry for comments (haha 20:41:09 jc> Most people want to allow commenters to log in with OAuth, because most bloggers want to lower the barrier to entry for comments (haha)
  160. jc Bug in poezio πŸ˜›
  161. pep. Impossible!
  162. jc Oh, Converse.js allows editing earlier messages than the last
  163. jc Could be that
  164. Link Mauve jc, poezio too.
  165. pep. nah, poezio should also
  166. Link Mauve jc, my guess is that you corrected the first id three times, while poezio replaces the entire message with the correction as per the XEP, including the id.
  167. jc Link Mauve: that sounds right
  168. jc So Converse is not spec-compliant?
  169. pep. gets his pointy fingers to point at converse
  170. pep. :P
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  173. jc I don't actually see that the XEP says this explicitly
  174. jc Link Mauve: Can you quote where in the XEP this is said?
  175. Link Mauve Hmm, β€œIt is expected that the receiver SHOULD then treat the new stanza as complete replacement for all the payloads received in the original stanza.”
  176. Link Mauve That may mean only payloads, and not attributes of the outer message.
  177. Link Mauve But then, why?
  178. pep. why what? What this SHOULD?
  179. pep. I guess it's mostly for consistency?
  180. jc Well well well...
  181. jc πŸ˜›
  182. SouL grabs the popcorn
  183. jc Should I make a bug report for Poezio? πŸ˜‰
  184. SouL Booom
  185. SouL Haha
  186. SouL is just joking :D
  187. Link Mauve jc, or a fix to the XEP to specify that the stanza replaces the old one, period?
  188. jc I'm not sure that this is better...
  189. pep. err, do you really want to do that?
  190. Link Mauve pep., that’s what we do yes.
  191. jc They all replace the original stanza
  192. jc I can see arguments for both ways of doing things
  193. Link Mauve It avoids having to go back in the history tree up to the root stanza and modify it again.
  194. pep. What about all other payloads in the stanza? That means you can remove anything outside of <body/>?
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  197. pep. (well it's already used for xhtml-im etc., I guess, and also omemo, pgp, and whatnots)
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  199. pep. Or wait no, not OMEMO
  200. pep. Or at least it shouldn't, privacy [blah blah]
  201. Link Mauve pep., yes, all of the payloads, and here I argue that it should also replace the attributes of the stanza.
  202. pep. That's not generally something I'm really fond of, mutability :x
  203. pep. Also, "hijack commteam@ for your new pet bug 101", available today in your syllabus
  204. jc Nothing we've talked about this whole conversation is relevant to this MUC
  205. pep. True
  206. pep. "How to put XMPP MUCs to good use"
  207. pep. So.. open a bug on poezio, and converse, with a "This needs to be resolved by trial by combat on standards@"?
  208. jc Well, Converse is spec-compliant as it's currently written
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  210. pep. falls, pointy fingers twisted, defeated
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  213. SouL xD
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  215. pep. jc, https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/issues/3462 :)
  216. jc πŸ˜‡
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