XSF Communications Team - 2019-10-03

of course

let's give it a try, that's my opinion, so how do we proceed if we reach a consensus

?

What do you mean? Introduce a 'call for help' section in the wiki and see if it gets filled. Maybe send a message to some ml so devs get aware of it.

not only devs

who tweeted that? https://twitter.com/xmpp/status/1179671137506209792

that's cool and all, but some select few complain to see newsletter work priori to making it public, but it does not seem to work the other way around

I propose we co-write and co-schedule the tweets together

I repeat, the commTeam is not (yet) a team cooperation/collaboration needs continuous effort, but the outcome is far better

nyco: Maybe pep. as it is his blog.

Afaik

nyco, problem with twitter is many people have access to it, I think SCAM has access. So I'm guessing pep. or somebody in SCAM did it

Daniel and I did it

nyco: it's original content, not sure what's wrong with that

It's not like we retwitted the same thing

pep., I think it is cool but he probably wanted to say to be in sync before tweeting, so everybody knows

nothing is wrong about OC, please re-read above I am suprised that it is not OK that I tweet, but it is ok for some other persons

if we are a team, then let's be a team

pep. wasn't tweeting about the sprint over and over again

we opened up the process of the newsletter workflow, because people asked for it so be it it's better now, and keeps improving, thanks to collective intelligence let's do that as well for Twitter, please

so I think that is the difference, not who or what is being tweeted

But I agree, some policies clearly need documenting

like scheduling campaigns

so that everyone agrees on what is acceptable and what is not, and what needs consensus and what does not

for consistency and coherence

and peer to peer trust

well, I beg to differ for this particular tweet, as this points to a personal blog

I agree with the content though

I don't see a problem with tweeting links to interesting XMPP articles - personal blogs or large organisations, as long as it is relevant

legitimacy

if it's coming from a community, it has higher image

anyway, please share the tweets drafts let's copywrite all together

for example, why the hashtag #Stockholm ? :)

and btw, blog post written and published, also tweeted, but still not in the newsletter: why?

now it is, you're welcome

"do what I tell you, but don't do as I do"

you all know this as community devs

this is no code, but same stuff

we should have fun doing all this, this must be exciting we have to combine our strengths, for the better good of the community, and it shining bright outside

oh, btw, we are there again... there is nothing wrong with repetition if as a Twitter user, this is not your habit, then so be it, please unfollow, we don't need you, thanks Twitter is a very specific platform, with with the good/best practices indeed in a blog, you don't repeat posts in LinkedIn, you don't double-post on email, you don't twice the same content just paraphrased but on Twitter you just do because that's how Twitter works it is a overly-massive continuous, high-speed flow so you post twice or three times the same content

https://movim.eu:5280/upload/1ab8cd5d50a081e2fdf8ce43dca3047f8bd49889/SD63vZk61AgQv7aQp5AjSX6jlAWLfTB8dN7ZMO9x/Capture_d_e_cran_2019-10-03_a__13.59.16.png

https://movim.eu:5280/upload/1ab8cd5d50a081e2fdf8ce43dca3047f8bd49889/4NmNT1e3g7AL2fsR1RDUP4QV4jFeDkEf6e9Ew2g3/Capture_d_e_cran_2019-10-03_a__13.59.51.png

https://movim.eu:5280/upload/1ab8cd5d50a081e2fdf8ce43dca3047f8bd49889/hzizwv62849PCqEcsdwXzRKZnbvDXquD9MyJI1CY/Capture_d_e_cran_2019-10-03_a__13.59.58.png

> nyco> and btw, blog post written and published, also tweeted, but still not in the newsletter: why? I still have a month for that

done

you're welcome

I mean it is not consistent

nyco: I'm not sure what you're getting hot about. Also I don't have time to fight back right now sorry

it is exactly NOT about fight

just complainers doing exactly what they complain about from others

I agree about getting some kind of policy up and running

Good.

So, policy

let's share idea, co-construct the scheduling of Twitter content

because the current process of the newsletter is clearly documented, and feedback is taken into account

This article has nothing to do with the newsletter, yet

I'd say, let someone come up with a tweet idea, let that person propose some content (copy-writing), let that person share it with the commTeam, let that person schedule the tweet to the next day if people of the commTeam react and provide feedback (when time allows), then let's adapt if people of the commTeam do not react, then the tweets is scheduled anyway obviously, we trust each other we are each one of us benevolent

now, it is is in the next newsletter, unless we reach a consensus not to include it

so for the tweet contributor, we have one lead, showing example

again, a tweet is better when composed of text, link, hashtag, image

that's for OC

for curation, the "tweet with comment" can't be scheduled, afaik

I have worked in teams producing content for social media, I am confident we can create a real, cool, fun space for collab here

I speak for myself, but I never tweet immediately on @xmpp, I always schedule tweet, so the team can view it

And you bark intensively when we ask why you're retweeting the same thing and tweet nonetheless :x

That's my own opinion

BTW, you got a new newsletter subscriber after I shared it to twtxt. IMHO as xmpp community you should also support some decentralised stuff like twtxt/mastodon/whatever 😃

Martin: agreed

saiyng some barks, when you bark yourself? not a good example

yep, Mastodon, please someone do it

do we have the LinkedIn page back?

I'm always annoyed by the amount of twitter stuff shared in mucs as it sometimes forces you to three times reloading the website till it shows the content. They bully people not using a client.

let's just make the commTeam a team

pep, seems like you don't read, or do not listen, or just don't care repeating the way on Twitter, you are not the target, please unfollow, and don't bark again

I am exactly the target

the goal of using Twitter is to reach out talking to internal members, that's done over our mailing list

I am only active in twtxt, as I said I shared the newsletter and will continue. I don't know if you want to set it up for the xsf as it is the smallest microblog niche I guess. ✏

that is what you assume, you are not the target on Twitter pep

You can't market a protocol to users, at least not the way you're doing it, I'm not sure who else you're targeting

what in "reach out" don't you understand... "out"? that out of our current, present, inner circle you are already informed

so many issues, errors, wrong assumptions

As a developer, I am the target

> You can't market a protocol to users it is not just about the protocol, it is not just about users > at least not the way you're doing it do you think you hold The Ultimate Truth? I am re-using good and best practices, by experts that you are not, and you showed up to not know what you are talking about > I'm not sure who else you're targeting not sure yet either, let' have a conversation about that... let's try: developers, users, decision makers, policy makers? what else can you think of?

thx Daniel for clarifying

> who tweeted that? https://twitter.com/xmpp/status/1179671137506209792 I tweeted that on behalf of SCAM. The Stockholm sprint was a scam event. The tweet has been reviewed by two members of SCAM. The blog post itself was run by multiple participants of the sprint. Including again two members of SCAM ✏

again pep: don't fight, just help, go in the same direction don't complain, just please feedback benevolently

we're not benevolent here

it's a constant fight, a big mess

we're a sum of individuals with differing agendas

can we sync at least a bit, make some effort ?

> let's give it a try, that's my opinion, so how do we proceed if we reach a consensus > ? I think the best way is maybe to specifically go to developers or server maintainers. explain them the idea, and then put it in the next newsletter + first a small description of the idea

many have asked me to open up the newsletter process, which I did, still lots of improvements to come

emus good idea, can you please lead this

?

nyco: ok

I still wonder how many people need to ask you why you retweet things before we do something about it.

see this example? don't complain about this idea just feedback share concerns build solutions but don't block someone's initiative that's quite villain, low level

I also don't think "impressions" is the right metrics

that is wrong

and metrics are not only about impressions

Maybe you can explain why

why would you focus on that?

> I also don't think "impressions" is the right metrics are we talking about my call thing, or something else?

emus: nope

ok

I have already explained, many times, happy to do it again when you are mentally available and open minded about it

> I still wonder how many people need to ask you why you retweet things before we do something about it. retweet what? what you talking about?

Ok I think I'll give up for today and try another day. This discussion is only getting worse

I don't retweet on behalf of @xmpp, are you freely accusing me publicly ?

getting worse thanks to you pep

just be positive

it's not you job nor expertise obvioulsy

> I don't retweet on behalf of @xmpp, are you freely accusing me publicly ? > getting worse thanks to you pep > just be positive > it's not you job nor expertise obvioulsy Guys, whats going on with you.... chill down

impressions help you have the "brand" exposed in many screens

does not mean people see it, right

> Guys, whats going on with you.... chill down I'd love that, but the tone is wrong, always has been, does not seem to improve

leaving the chat does not help

when I post metrics, it is not just the impressions

see what I have analysed about the engagement, and what it means

but what ever the numbers, the ratios, the growths... we are just not there, 1.5k followers we are just not seen

> but what ever the numbers, the ratios, the growths... we are just not there, 1.5k followers we are just not seen let me help you a bit but I dont see any reason for accusation, in no direction. but I`m here only since a few days

> but what ever the numbers, the ratios, the growths... we are just not there, 1.5k followers we are just not seen> if as > if as Twitter user, this is not your habit, then so be it, please unfollow, we don't need you, thanks Those statements seem to contradict each other. But I'm not comm...

pffff... muahahaa

please explain

anyway, I don't see individuals retweet @xmpp content very much

"we need growth" is the opposite sentiment to "unfollow us, we don't need you"

As a member of SCAM I target mostly tech people. I have some interesting in keeping a few of them

If comm wants growth that's fine. But please not at all cost

don't look for what's wrong in statements, you will always find things like anyone can do for each other that is malevolent rather seek what's meant in that one unfollower is ok, growth is not about have one more followers, but many time, continuoulsy

1+1+1+1+1+... == many

if commTeam wants growth, well I'm not sure we align around that

keeping the techies in the loop, that's sound cool to me but also not at the cost of other targets, assuming we have more, which has not been clarified

MattJ what's your point? I mean if we lose 5 members, I'm fine with that but if we manage to pass the 10k followers over time (in two or three years), I'd be glad

that needs a continuous effort, and a single person cannot hold the burden alone, that's why teaming is better

I raise the question: SCAM and commTeam what are the common stuff? what are the differences? => one thing in common is we are using the @xmpp Twitter account I'd say Twitter is comm, it is about pushing info

If those five followers that you are willing to loose are the target audience of SCAM we do have a little bit of a conflict of interest here.

Not saying you should stop

But please do keep scam interests in mind

lose, not loose I am not willing to lose them, never said that, never wrote that, never intended that I say it's ok to lose 5 if we get others 100 back

SCAM and commTeam have the same interests, techies are definitely a target group, not one objects to this known, obvious fact

Then we should tweet a broad range of stuff that is relevant to all the different types of people we want to attract

yes

and how do we handle that?

I call a meeting

we should progress slowly but surely

if techies is the target group we start with, then let's continue provide content for them, that's called nurturing

we have very few OC, many curation

that's the 99% of the newsletter and our @xmpp account

nyco: you said multiple times that you don't care about the techies that get annoyed by repeating content. But I'm going to assume that you didn't mean what you said. In that case everything is fine and we don't need to continue the debate

we can definitely do OC, like once in a month a blog post, that's quite achievable

Daniel still shutting me down abruptly like that, I'm fed up with explaining and justifying over again we are dealing with 5 persons max here... will we really care about 5 dudes?

Yes, if they are potential attendees at a sprint (which is composed of <10 people usually)

> Yes, if they are potential attendees at a sprint (which is composed of <10 people usually) That

omg guys, this is a newsletter AND twitter... there is always infornation people are not interested in.... please stop fight so harsh (counts for both of you)

no, you don't have to use Twitter for those persons you use different channels to reach them, "probably" XMPP

MattJ and Daniel and pep. : do we agree as commTeam, SCAM and XSF members that we should reach out? that we should open up not only to techies? like users and decision makers for example?

I want that as a proof: the landing page for users that has been started at the latest XMPP sprint in Stockholm

FYI, I am no dev, maybe a techie (I am operating my own xmppd) and I am always interested to read stuff like sprint reports to see what might come soon. Even if I don't understand all details. Otherwise I agree with emus. The discussion is too heated up. Both parties should pause, reflect and try to put themselves in the others shoes and come back later. You're in the same boat and want roughly the same although it might differ in some details.

Also here are people from different countries/cultures talking in english which is not the mother tongue for most of us. So it's easy to sound more harsh then intended or take something as offense which wasn't meant to be one.

you're right Martin

nyco: as I said above, as a developer, not especially xmpp, I count myself as a target, and it's relevant for scam. So yes I care if we lose this kind of followers.

Also, you seem to be confused about your target(s), maybe it would be good to define them before spamming twitter with the same repeated content

I'm happy to help

no, you're not helping: I have asked many times who you think are the targets, I'll wait (and you're not in the commTeam, but we'll listen)

I'm obviously not saying I don't care about users, after all it's why I'm doing all I'm doing

ah, good

so what type of users?

I don't think @xmpp is for users though.

(there, we finally start to co-construct)

Here, I said it again

noted, as it was years ago

Well, users, of the protocol :)

so what type of users?

Developers.

so, trying to follow you and translate/paraphrase: protocol users are techies?

ok, so we don't move, we don't reach out to different populations?

Don't make me say what you're trying to say, get to the point

that's exactly what I'm doing, you might not get it

so please?

no meta-discussion :)

@xmpp's target is only developers and techies to you pep ?

That's not what I'm saying, please read again. You talk about not leaving other targets aside but you don't seem to have any

please explain again

do not assume

no meta-discussion

I've said targets I have proposed, happy to repeat: users, decision makers, policy makers

Explain what

no meta discussion

please explain your proposed targets for @xmpp

I am proposing that we keep developers as a target

Additionally to those you added, if you like

And that requires not getting them to leave

good, understood, at last you seem to be clear, thanks

we keep developers, I agree

consensus on that, the two of us

more targets: it is not if *I* like, I'd prefer the XSF to agree first, that means the commTeam comes up with the new targets and content for them that may mean proposing this to the Board

when you send content on a given channel for two different targets, you lose some of both when you have more than three targets, you lose potential for each that's the way

for now, we have only two channels: Twitter and the newsletter

And I'd rather prioritize developers for the time being

we cannot profile the newsletter subscribers, because Tinyletter does not provide that data

I'd rather not

devs are not paying nor funding anything decision makers do

so we can add more channels as we progress

like Mastodon...

if someone takes care of it

I won't

Devs are the ones making this protocol move forward

like LinkedIn, we we can get it back

I don't see any decision makers in sprints

decision makers are funding for it

:) sprint are for developers, of course decision makers are not there

please organise a meetup or some kind of event for them, and then promote it, they will come like on any digital channel

Maybe decision makers should be kept to LinkedIn. And I'm happy to delay as long as we don't have access to it

(Delay targeting them*)

I personally suggest to treat xmpp not as a dev only thing. I get the point, but already stateing this will exclude thinking past the horizon. as there is nothing which reviews the jabber network (with all parties), xmpp might give some credits to every side in general. and I wouldnt suggest to create more newsletters

decision makers are on LinkedIn, right developers may not be on LinkedIn, or don't use it that way, right but Twitter is not reserved for devs, decision makers are also there, as well as users, and policy makers so ou account should not frighten them

btw, to @all, what are your opinions on the new section about specs? we've done that for the last two months

I like it

so, links are not clickable this month, so they won't be counted on the click ratio

this month, we have a normal size newsletter, last month we had a double newsletter (July, August) so our click ratio was lower 1. because of the long size 2. because of the new sections

my assumptions

at the end of the month, we'll have enough data to inspect and analyse, and probably draw some conclusions and/or new hypothesis

Daniel pep. SouL Martin emus > btw, to @all, what are your opinions on the new section about specs? > we've done that for the last two months I believe no XMPP clients implements the "@all" thingy so sorry for this...

I liked it but I was irritated why the URLs were no links.

ok, thx

I'm personally ok with that section. But that might not be the case for all of our targets

We should probably ask them

thx for your taste what makes you assume that for our targets,

?

I don't assume anything, I don't know

Hence my suggestion to ask

a survey is definitely to be designed and scheduled some time in Nov or Dec

K

though, I'd prefer to make it generic on the newsletter, not only on one section

two days after sending it, we have: (no definitive numbers, still a rough precision that is worth observing)

> Daniel pep. SouL Martin emus > I believe no XMPP clients implements the "@all" thingy > so sorry for this... I actually can only say that I like it (maybe conpress it a bit) but as I am not a developer it is not my section of interest. still I read it and think it is good for devs.

thx!

https://movim.eu:5280/upload/1ab8cd5d50a081e2fdf8ce43dca3047f8bd49889/aMYY9vsuNFzXKYeLIl06t7yhLLKsajzDpQR25nDC/Capture_d_e_cran_2019-10-03_a__16.22.53.png

the trends are the same, months after months:

subscribers count growth

open rate and click rate decrease

I migjt also think it is very good for non devs. Because people see that there is something like a standards process and yes, xmpp is a protocol of arrangeing interoperability in a decentral network. even if I dont know the details I understand something of the background. I think its very good now 😂

as we grow in subscribers, the rates will decrease I guess it is due to the success of a newsletter attracting people: some are just not interested, they just subscribe because it's cool, but actually never open it

how to improve open rate? I think by "optimising" the title/subject and the first sentences (previewed part in some email clients)

nyco: Do you also track the RS. feed

RSS

that's why I asked for help this month

no, the RSS feed and the website are not tracked, afaik

Tinyletter track very few things

I will send you the translations this weekend. I just hear fron a few germans they dont read it because its english, what I personally didnt understood

ok, I wouldnt go so harsh for the numbers now

so on the newsletter title/subject, I suggest we try to drop "The" in "The XMPP Newsletter" probably even shorted like "XMPP: ..."

I would put a logo to the top or so:

for the click rate, we may improve the working and which words are clickable

yes, images were inserted in this month newsletter for the first time only two images for now

https://xmpp-share.mailbox.org/upload/mailbox.org/cf9b0bfb1642efa7ddd6e519af9dbaa1ccd6e42c/1S0Ay601kIb106gLUN39hL6X73HFyxw92cWl7i7A/RGfOTf53Taal2Y3O0VbLWA.jpg

Looks a bit unrelated

a logo at the top, I am not sure I'd rather have text at the top, for email previews

Then make the first sentence a more header thing

agree

I'll need your help at the end of the month

no rush

https://xmpp-share.mailbox.org/upload/mailbox.org/cf9b0bfb1642efa7ddd6e519af9dbaa1ccd6e42c/CE78igNYpeSA5mgIzEdsdGwX0nMpCNGKTJVvuD71/DjiXnLGpRDyXJTSu3M3bZA.jpg

the earlier ones had a logo

I think its proper like this

oops...

emus > I will send you the translations this weekend. I just hear fron a few germans they dont read it because its english, what I personally didnt understood that's awesome! thanks a lot!

where will you publish it? on jabber.de?

nyco: JabberES people says their website is shit, so I ask the jabber.de people to publish the spanish translations as well. once there is a proper website we can migrate

ja, jabber.de

yes*

that's gonna be Spaman or Gernish :)

> the trends are the same, months after months: > subscribers count growth > open rate and click rate decrease I block tracking pixels and my browser removes tracking parameters so I will be invisible. 😃

Sí sí

ja ja

nyco: thunderbird also by default restricts remote content

I think we are just on a agree to disagree on how to run Twitter. That's nothing personal. That's just how it is

I for long time watched the xmpp newsletter. was wondering why they barely post stuff. now I saw like many posts which was more that the previous year (feeling). but was okay As i see the discussing, I recommend going away from reposting eveything and rather create own posts. but not all with pictures.

about the "Promoting open communication." If the communication should rather be a dev only thing, that doesnt really suit anymore. Still, I like the expression!

nyco: the newsletter needs reCaptcha?

nyco: we might should mention that there is also the rss feed. people were asking about this

Ah sorry, didnt saw the rss comes via planet jabber to me

emus: what's the context for recaptcha?

I think they have a problem with google and dont see the necessarity to use Google there

I personally would also prefer to use something apart from google. but, I see the problem

I mean, mailchimp is also not the datas paradise I guess

😃

One thing xmpp could communicate aswell in the twitter feed, or also the newsletters are the different mucs you have on different topics. that would be self-generated content

> I think we are just on a agree to disagree on how to run Twitter. That's nothing personal. That's just how it is it is not about agreeing, it is about doing the right thing, experimenting, progressing I don't tell you how you should use Twitter, but there are many things to say...

> nyco: the newsletter needs reCaptcha? I don't think so

> nyco: we might should mention that there is also the rss feed. people were asking about this oh really? some people still care? I'm glad so yes, maybe a reminder can help you create an entry in the draft newsletter, or link collection?

https://xmpp-share.mailbox.org/upload/mailbox.org/cf9b0bfb1642efa7ddd6e519af9dbaa1ccd6e42c/psqT9wXPfvffblQTTDQn0cxwCTlnGakNCcBiaQYc/LDckTiYPT2KXDHzc7OuJbw.jpg

> As i see the discussing, I recommend going away from reposting eveything and rather create own posts. but not all with pictures. yes, retweeting is not optimal at all retweeting with comments is much better posting OC is definitely something good, but we don't have writers what we can do is schedule tweets, pointing to our pages I proposed that a few days ago

but schedule it on a quarterly basis I suggest

that a huge task, and I don't believe free scheduling tools allow that many tweets

I suggest we start to work in a team, we produce like 4 tweets, that we schedule every Wednesday, for example

But I think that is too often. I would reduce it a bit. If people see a new twitter account they read the last tweets anyway if they are interested. Would risk spamming the feed. But you might better know

nyco what do you think about the captcha

what's the pb with the captcha?

Google

trakcing

One question: MongooseIM 3.4.1 is out now with an important security upgrade, fixing a vulnerability that allowed any logged in user to crash the node with malicious stanza on certain (but popular) configurations.

The link you provided there is: https://www.erlang-solutions.com/resources/download.html

Is that intentional?

well, Tinyletter tracks emails as well

yes, why?

their download page lists everything they provide

Maybe we should look for a different provider

People in XMPP care a lot more about privacy I think

> nyco> it is not about agreeing, it is about doing the right thing Then yes it is about agreeing on what the right thing is..

Technical question: Message Fastening is NOT about acceleration, but stability? or hardening? Anyone of the germans can help to translate?

emus, can i get the full sentence?

Proposed Message Fastening Abstract: This specification defines a way for payloads on a message to be marked as being logically fastened to a previous message. URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/fasten.html

I made to: Zusammenfassung: Diese Spezifikation definiert eine Möglichkeit, wie Nutzlasten in einer Nachricht als logisch an einer vorherigen Nachricht geknüpft werden können.

an eine*

that sounds alright

cool - then the first translation to German is done! 🙂 Good thing on the German unification day 😀

fyi nyco

looking forward to drop it that it can go online. if some wants to cross-check feel free

no, please give me a hint so I can send it to you

Y ahora yo trabajo por la translation en espanol! xD no worries, I will let cross check a native speaker. She hates XMPP (Monal 🤡️) but is happy to help

Daniel, can then translate Message Fastening still with "Nachrichtenbeschleuning" ? (Keine Sorge kein Arbeitsbegriff nur einmal in Klammern für den unbedarften Leser)

And the first spanish draft is done 🙂

> can then translate Message Fastening still with "Nachrichtenbeschleuning" emus, it's fastening as in attaching, not as accelerating. so "anheften", not "beschleunigen".

And you probably want to go with "Inhalte einer Nachricht" instead of "Nutzlasten einer Nachricht" for the summary 😉

yes, wasnt sure about payload

thanks