XSF Communications Team

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08:16:43 emus Nÿco: did you finished you review? so far?
08:17:45 Nÿco I only did a word by word review
08:17:54 Nÿco Not yet a global review
08:18:09 Nÿco Also, there is no picture, I'll find some
08:18:52 Nÿco When ready, I'll copy and paste, paragraph by paragraph on Tinyletter
08:19:08 Nÿco Then I can schedule some tweets on Tweetdeck
08:19:23 Nÿco And post on Mastodon and LinkedIn
08:19:28 Nÿco Facebook is shit
08:20:31 Nÿco Tuesday is a good day to post
08:20:52 Nÿco I can re-heat the social media by teasing
08:25:20 emus Yes, lets wait for the website release with the "social" networks.
08:26:48 emus Nÿco: Then lets find a quick picture, maybe a current one from the GSoC students or a client. I can add it then
08:27:08 Nÿco One is not enough
08:27:22 Nÿco I'd say three or four
08:28:32 Nÿco It is also a common pratice to make a picture for the whole article, but I don't know how it works with Pelican
08:29:31 emus Nÿco: No, we dont have so much content this time, there was also a discussion the recent months about pictures, I rather suggest we start the discussion for the next newsletter version to not delay things
08:29:54 emus Nÿco: We can put the general newsletter picture + one specific
08:29:55 Nÿco Ok
08:30:10 Nÿco No, many pics are necessary
08:30:16 Nÿco It won't be delayed
08:30:24 emus we are already delayed
08:30:25 Nÿco Tuesday is a good day to post
08:30:43 Nÿco No picture is a no go
08:31:51 Nÿco Always keep in mind that we only do curation, no Original Content
08:32:09 emus Nÿco we had discussions on that in the team with unclear outcome, please lets review another time. Its not good, but also not that crucial this time
08:32:33 Nÿco On what? Pics?
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08:32:41 emus > Always keep in mind that we only do curation, no Original Content I dont understand this
08:32:45 emus > On what? Pics? yes
08:33:00 Nÿco We don't write as XSF
08:33:15 Nÿco We only relay others' content
08:33:26 Nÿco This is low value
08:33:43 emus Yes
08:33:59 Nÿco Let's just slightly increase that value
08:34:06 Nÿco Small pics
08:34:21 Nÿco It is a common pattern by industry experts
08:34:45 Nÿco You raise more attention by the readers with visuals, that's science
08:35:03 emus Nÿco: Agreed, but I prefer to have a decision all team member agree on and its clear, I would like to just post this article now and discuss the picture thing for the next version
08:35:19 Nÿco Also, we had had that debate, and the outcome was to add pictures, so why regress?
08:35:25 emus Yes, I know
08:35:36 Nÿco Not now, Tuesday
08:35:54 Nÿco So, we have 2 days to add pics
08:37:24 emus > Not now, Tuesday > So, we have 2 days to add pics Nyco, please lets respect the situation and not just make anymore delays. If we have things to change, we can do it for the next newsletter.
08:40:25 emus Nÿco: Apart from the pictures, is there anything fron the content you still would like to review?
08:41:20 Nÿco Yes, some global review
08:44:26 emus Okay, when can you do it?
08:44:33 Nÿco This weekend
08:46:42 emus But what it is you want to change, because I thought you read the text already? If those are bigger things, we should schedule those changes to the next version
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10:17:55 Nÿco so I just reviews things words by words, did not yet perform this global review against my checlist so far, I've seen inconsistencies and mistakes, can't remember, will tell while doing my global review I'll probably book time on Sunday night meanwhile, please don't publish on weekends the peak attention windows are on Tuesdays and Thursdays so let's send the newsletter on Tuesday morning, and then we publish the blog post meanwhile I'll prepare the tweet, toot, and linkedin post (longer) having no illustration or visual content is a no go, I'll find some as well
10:18:39 emus SouL, jcbrand, Nÿco, peetah, wurstsalat: Whats you point on releasing?
10:19:03 Nÿco sorry, I don't understand your question
10:21:08 emus I asked if they want to wait or release now. We can do tweets still later. Because my intention or what I said in the last days was to release asap. What I still prefer. Pictures is a point to discuss, but not for this version in my view.
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10:23:45 Nÿco it is already late, a few more days are not chaging anything I'd go for a better quality rather than in time also just please don't publish on weekends, rather on Tuesdays and Thursdays at maximum attention otherwise you provide lower value, and your work becomes less relevant
10:26:10 emus We can push the tweets on tuesdays. then we have two days with this. I prefer to get it done by now. We can align all this, which I agree to in general, for the next version.
10:26:49 Nÿco pictures are not to be discussed: you have to include pictures it is science, lots of people are visual first, so you would not serve them properly for all other people, they are at least partially visuel, but also auditive, that's the written part (and kinesthetic, but that's not the point here) long story short: cognitives ciences, statistics and analytics show that pictures are mandatory and it's not a huge work, 30 min top as it is only a matter of taking a few pictures from the articles we curate we will not create picture for this newsletter I agree first I believe no one here has the ability of time
10:27:14 wurstsalat we have some pics in the Gajim 1.2 beta release post. I think it’s better to post on a day where it’s seen by more people
10:27:26 Nÿco pictures: must do, doesn't take much time
10:27:39 Nÿco Gajim pics work
10:27:48 Nÿco I believe we can find on or two more
10:28:12 emus Nyco, I dont claim the science. But lets align on that for the next one. We had a discussion on pictures and need to find a solution >how< to do it first.
10:28:21 Nÿco also it is not a question of waiting, it is a question of using that time right
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10:28:51 Nÿco I used to do pictures in the newsletters I lead I'll do it again if you need
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10:29:22 Nÿco a newsletter with only text will feels quite poor
10:30:29 Nÿco I understand people here may want to publish asap but it is not the right time,Tuesday is a far batter time for various reasons (social, science, etc.)
10:31:31 emus Agreed, but this newsletter is small, it doesnt matter. Just lets it get done and we do everything proper in the next one with more time. We can post tweets on tuesday agreed.
10:31:47 Nÿco let's use that time properly: either we do nothing and just wait or we bring this issue at a slightly higher level with low effort as it used to be done
10:32:07 Nÿco we have that time until Tuesday
10:32:22 Nÿco and I will do stuff, and submit to your review emus as the lead
10:32:38 Nÿco I gotta go now, see you soon
10:48:27 emus I observe that you have been away for several months and just appeared last night. Previously I actually asked for simple feedback on the content, as to my understanding we wanted to release already. So, I prefer to not create a complete different agenda now. I personally don't like that and as you haven't attend for a while you may should respect that there were topic with need to be discussed in the team. I think that's not possible till Tuesday. For that reason I prefer to just release a simple version (Yes, science says no, but that is not the point). In the next release we can do everything fancy again. But I ask you again to be a bit patient with things and not make just your own agenda from one day to another... that feels at least not to me in any kind of respect to the situation and actually "taking the command" where we actually should have been a *team discussion* first.... (And yes, Tweets, Tinyletter can be done on Tuesday if that is so important)
10:57:27 MattJ https://www.statista.com/chart/21905/favorability-of-brand-actions-amid-mass-protests/
10:59:19 emus MattJ: Whats you point actually? 😅
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11:02:57 MattJ Why do I have to be making a point? :)
11:03:43 MattJ Has this already been discussed?
11:07:43 pep. I personally wouldn't want to follow that graph that seems to encourage not supporting protestors :x
11:09:54 emus MattJ: Is that unrelated to anything or why do you post it? I could not follow you intention
11:11:43 MattJ It seems a relevant thing for the communications team to discuss and be on top of
11:12:10 MattJ Rather than blindly posting a newsletter because that's just what we do every month
11:12:47 pep. I also don't see why this time it would be important and not the million times before
11:13:19 Nÿco well we navigate in several minfields at the same time so, in terms of content, I'd rather anchoring things in these unclear situations
11:13:32 MattJ I'm not for or against publishing, but many other organisations have taken some action or made some statement
11:13:37 pep. feels like people are just waking up to see how crappy our world is
11:13:54 MattJ And it seems entirely sensible that this should be discussed
11:14:58 Nÿco I'd rather go for positivity our statement would look like "we support open standards and yes we authorise proprietary software to implement our (your) standard, (and let there be peace)" but not sure of that wording though 🙂
11:15:43 emus > I'm not for or against publishing, but many other organisations have taken some action or made some statement Sure, but lets take the time then for the next release and not after review was more or less done.
11:16:10 Nÿco also I underline our will to remain neutral as much as possible in termes of implems, teams, projects, philosophies
11:16:30 pep. Nÿco: neutrality is a lie :)
11:16:37 Nÿco hehehe
11:16:43 pep. what we do is political
11:16:48 Nÿco but that's not positive! :-p
11:16:49 MattJ I believe in the lie
11:17:31 Nÿco I said "neutral as much as possible" I did not say "strictly neutral"
11:17:33 Nÿco anyway
11:17:44 Nÿco what would such a statement look like?
11:17:59 Nÿco I guess it would be the responsibility of the comm team alone, but also the board
11:18:06 MattJ My concern is that if we post the newsletter to social media, it will get negative reaction at a time when most social media is discussing other matters that most people deem more important
11:18:09 Nÿco has this question been raised alreadyN
11:18:28 pep. as emus says I think it's a bit late. especially if you want to make that go through board
11:18:47 pep. MattJ: because that's never been the case before?
11:18:52 Nÿco MattJ, I don't observe those negative reactions, have you seen some? I would like to understand where your concern is coming from
11:19:15 pep. we didn't even make statements in cases where that affected us directly
11:19:22 pep. so..
11:20:00 MattJ I don't frequent social media, but that poll seems relevant (note that it is US-centric and none of us are in the US)
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11:22:52 MattJ One of my wife's friends basically told her she was by default racist by not posting anything on social media about the matter. Pretty sure most people don't follow that line of thinking, but if we're doing marketing it may be a bad time to post generic tech stuff
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11:23:06 Nÿco what if we just publish our newsletter like that? I mean we only do curation that means we don't even write our own content this is why doing a statement this time or next would be a first, but why not so we only reflect what's happening in our community if no mentions are made from all the things we cover, then what?
11:23:23 pep. MattJ: so breaking the so-called neutrality?
11:23:24 emus I think noone will claim on us if we drop our monthly newsletter ever month. Yes there is Corona, and people died of many unlawful things everywhere in the world everyday and we didnt care before (Obviously because we focus on XMPP). But this is out of our scope I think.
11:24:13 Nÿco ok, now I se your thinking better MattJ I had some remarks/comment asking for help, indeed (not accusing me of inaction or being opposite) so that is quite a positive feedback on my experience
11:24:16 MattJ pep.: my personal default would be to let it resolve and hold off posting for a week or so
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11:24:45 emus I'm absolutely against any non-related political statements. We would need to discuss every month on the worlds political issues...
11:25:02 MattJ But I am not commteam, I just want to see that someone makes a conscious decision about posting and doesn't walk us into the minefield without knowing it
11:25:35 Nÿco we can hold a newsletter, which by the way is not really a newsletter we can hold for a monthly period, which by the way is not really monthly 🙂
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11:25:52 emus I dont see a minefield. That statistics is a bit out of our range I think...
11:26:30 Nÿco there are indeed minefileds, no only corona, but also BLM, let's name, and btw it is taking shape in France as well
11:27:00 Nÿco in France as well, the political minefield will be a mess in the coming weeks
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11:27:21 Nÿco but I'm not focussing on France, just showing
11:27:28 emus The situation will hold on till next week too, I think the discussion is out of space...
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11:28:35 Nÿco MattJ, consciously, I have been part of several communications, and the questions rise in most contexts some do acknowledge the context, some take action, some do nothing and continue
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11:29:44 Nÿco one opinion that coudl resonate is: I'm fed up starting to read a new post/mail "in this context of coronavirus, crisis, etc." as this adds nothing (and sometimes it is just an unrelated intro)
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11:30:18 emus Yes, but we talk about releasing because of our very small newsletter to a very limited group so far. The whole week people blog and write about other topics, no one wants to read about our personally interpretation of the world. Please lets focus on the actual discussion
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11:32:01 Nÿco our target goupr is hopefully not limited: we have indeed less than 400 subscribers but it is also published on our blog which is not analysed in terms of traffic (I still want our Matomo!) and then is is relayed on social media, which you don't control because of sharing and then it is translated in a few major languages
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11:35:37 pep. MattJ: fwiw I don't think the situation is worse now that it was before. It's just that there's more people getting interested in (broad) politics caused by the mass licensing that's been happening lately (which is a good thing, that they notice) :x
11:36:26 Nÿco the situation may be more or less the same but the perception is not, you've pointer it out yourself
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11:37:45 pep. MattJ: fwiw I don't think the situation is worse now than it was before. It's just that there's more people getting interested in (broad) politics caused by the mass licensing that's been happening lately (which is a good thing, that they notice) :x
11:38:19 MattJ pep.: and that's the part that concerns the XSF marketing department
11:38:59 MattJ Like it or not, the XSF was not founded with a goal of social justice (there are many other orgs which cover that goal far better)
11:39:08 Nÿco oh wait, what? what are you tlkaing about? "mass licensing" ? what is it?
11:40:07 emus If we dont release it today we wont release it with all the changes by tuesday. Im sure. I dont get why whe should comment on US protestors. did we on Honkkong people? Or big demonstrations in Germany, we have a big german community.... thats absolutely out of scope. and anyway - would be scheduled to the june newsletter...
11:40:39 pep. MattJ: if as you say the XSF doesn't have social justice as a goal, why would we even bother with this topic
11:41:03 MattJ Because we don't want to do insensitive things that make the XSF look bad
11:41:29 pep. so we're just taking it and calling it a day?
11:42:07 pep. so we're just faking it and calling it a day?
11:42:51 Nÿco please emus do not release this weekend, I need time for a global review of the article that will take one or two hours, plus add the pictures, and then write all the social media posts for scheduling
11:43:33 Martin I don't think the xsf should get involved in that. There is murder, injustice and so on every day. If you pick topics to make a statement others will feel offended why you don't support their topic. Do you want to post stuff whenever something happens?
11:43:37 Nÿco wait pep. so what would be a statement like? benevolently looking for something different than my thinking
11:44:00 Nÿco Martin, yeah "neutrality" 🙂
11:44:04 pep. Nÿco: no. just curious what Matt would write really
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11:44:11 Nÿco ok
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11:44:24 Nÿco so please both try to write something fast, no judgement, I tried mine
11:44:48 emus The XSF should talk that in their xsf chat, I think we make them look bad if we put unrelated topic to agenda. Nÿco: The picture topic is a matter of discussion we need to do for the next newsletter version - please respect that.
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11:46:12 pep. Nÿco: I won't. I think we've never reacted to things like this and that's fine for the XSF as it stands. I personally disagree with this so-called neutral stance and would have reacted way before it becomes "popular"
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11:46:46 pep. Using any of this as a marketing opportunity is just repulsive
11:46:53 Martin goes nagging the local supermarket, water and power supply and beergarden around the corner. They didn't post something about the last racism thing in Absurdistan. They must be racist!
11:47:01 MattJ Hey what? I'm not writing anything
11:47:09 Nÿco oh no, it's not a marketing opportunity at all, not for us
11:47:11 Nÿco I hope
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11:47:27 MattJ I'm not sure if anything should be written
11:47:35 Nÿco oh
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11:47:52 Nÿco so we mostly agree we should not write a statement? I realise just that
11:47:55 MattJ As I said at the beginning I didn't post the link to state an opinion, I just want to make sure commteam knows what it is doing
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11:48:11 Nÿco so we have had that debate and we are team-wide conscious of it?
11:48:22 MattJ I think so?
11:48:27 pep. MattJ: that link in itself is an opinion :/
11:48:29 Nÿco I think so, too
11:48:44 emus Im sure we shouldnt, and we dont habe the ressources. And in terms of ressources, I am getting frustrated...
11:48:48 MattJ pep.: I didn't write what is behind the link?
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11:49:16 Nÿco https://upload.movim.eu/files/1ab8cd5d50a081e2fdf8ce43dca3047f8bd49889/otE7JOn6z375EQV3p6Ih5ZcYfwgV51zOHjK1u8eI/Capture_d_%C3%A9cran_de_2020-06-06_13-48-43.png
11:49:18 Martin What's the XSFs position about the critical journalist being killed in Dumaguete? Or President Duterte in general? Just playing devils advocate to show that you better don't get involved in politics as long as it is not directly affecting the XSFs work.
11:49:24 Nÿco unrelated, the Twitter stats up to date
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11:49:51 wurstsalat > Im sure we shouldnt, and we dont habe the ressources. > And in terms of ressources, I am getting frustrated... yeah me too, it's just a summary of one months development events, nothing political. I didn't subscribe for that
11:50:01 SouL > What's the XSFs position about the critical journalist being killed in Dumaguete? Or President Duterte in general? Just playing devils advocate to show that you better don't get involved in politics as long as it is not directly affecting the XSFs work. I think we all agree on that Martin
11:50:20 Martin Then why we are discussing it?
11:50:26 SouL MattJ was just making us aware of the latest "trends" online
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11:50:34 pep. Martin: we are a political org whether we want it or not.. we're producing "open standards" and trying to do so in a democratic way
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11:50:52 SouL What's political about that?
11:50:57 Nÿco I thnk we had a good debate that makes us grow, and we have a consensus
11:51:06 pep. What's not political about that
11:51:07 Nÿco who wants to react on Twitter stats?
11:51:08 Martin That's why I said 'as long as it is not affecting the XSFs work'
11:51:20 Nÿco (meanwhile, I'm collecting the newsletter stats for graphs)
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11:51:43 MattJ SouL: thanks, someone understands :)
11:51:45 Martin I don't see police Brutalism against blacks directly affecting your open communication standard.
11:51:58 pep. SouL: maybe ask yourself why you care about standards and about them being "open"
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11:53:04 pep. anyway I'm out, enough nonsense
11:53:11 Martin MattJ: > SouL: thanks, someone understands :) But still, if you post it you must have thought it is related. Otherwise you are an offtopic spammer. 😁
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11:53:58 MattJ Martin: it *is* related
11:54:30 MattJ It's an analysis of marketing approaches in the current situation and this is a channel about XSF marketing
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11:55:02 MattJ Sorry for making anyone aware of it who didn't want to be
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11:56:06 MattJ I hadn't even scrolled past the first paragraph when I posted it, it's not the conclusion that matters, I see it as relevant no matter the conclusion
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11:59:26 emus Can we just release it? Tweets etc on tuesday.... all the improvments will be done in the next version.... so complicated... Nÿco: better use the time for the "global reviews" you intended to make...
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12:04:31 Nÿco that does no sound very nice...
12:07:24 SouL Regarding what MattJ shares, It is a perfect valid point, just to bring it up at least. Definitively everyday I'm reading for instance, many game companies are suspending events/announcements saying "other voices are more important now". Honestly you can think many things. They do it because it is the correct thing to do, they do it because their announcements will be ignored by other topics and prefer to wait until they can be on the spotlight, they do it because everyone else is doing it... Many things. I'm in favour of not doing any kind of statement, due to the nature of the XSF. Many bad things happen in the world but our organization is not focused on that, like it or hate it. USA has a strong influence on all over the world, so it is obvious someone would bring up the topic.
12:09:10 Nÿco Newsletter stats
12:09:19 Nÿco https://upload.movim.eu/files/1ab8cd5d50a081e2fdf8ce43dca3047f8bd49889/rOL4BlfK4qScgGfGjkoNH7uIF0hqm0rj8uCue5YD/Capture_d_%C3%A9cran_de_2020-06-06_14-07-12.png
12:09:25 Nÿco https://upload.movim.eu/files/1ab8cd5d50a081e2fdf8ce43dca3047f8bd49889/OWM59ElcuUP5YKNYC5XoVwm9oVXKoH5aSMZgSMl5/Capture_d_%C3%A9cran_de_2020-06-06_14-07-25.png
12:09:31 Nÿco https://upload.movim.eu/files/1ab8cd5d50a081e2fdf8ce43dca3047f8bd49889/jGWcRTY11kV6YN4PZVUVOiYn3G6ozbqNutwXlB01/Capture_d_%C3%A9cran_de_2020-06-06_14-07-40.png
12:10:58 emus > that does no sound very nice... I see sorry. just intended to ask to focus on whats necessary now
12:11:31 Nÿco no pb stats/analytics are necessary, in order to better understand what we do and what people expect
12:13:38 Nÿco but we usually rarely discuss those it is wise to do this as a team, as this feeds our discussion, brings new hypothesis to explore
12:15:43 emus But not now... Seriously, that successful agenda changing from one day to another really disappoints me is unnecessary and I think unrespectful as there havent been any comments since I started the current newsletter. Still mentioned and highlighted everytime and was open to everyone...
12:16:31 emus I don't know who that said recently that ressources and people are burned - my +1
12:17:35 MattJ Which is why we were trying to hire someone...
12:17:55 MattJ who literally does this for a living
12:19:35 Martin > Regarding what MattJ shares, It is a perfect valid point, just to bring it up at least. Definitively everyday I'm reading for instance, many game companies are suspending events/announcements saying "other voices are more important now". Honestly you can think many things. They do it because it is the correct thing to do, they do it because their announcements will be ignored by other topics and prefer to wait until they can be on the spotlight, *they do it because everyone else is doing it*... Right that's one thing I strongly dislike when companies out of a sudden make such statements. It looks rather like hypocrisy than honest. I always think they just want to jump on the train. So it's not empathy but marketing. So I see this more a negative thing than 'oh, this company has such a good moral I must buy their things'.
12:20:43 MattJ Martin: which is what the poll was about, figuring out if that is the popular reaction
12:21:29 Nÿco emus that is only your opinion that the date change is not necessary, that is not the experience of millions if not billions of people preferably publish on Tuedays and Thursdays, preferably avoir weekends
12:21:56 jcbrand My two cents... There's a lot of potential downside and almost zero upside to getting involved in politics and current affairs. Also, IMO the XSF isn't a political organisation and not everything in life revolves around politics.
12:21:58 Martin Can't speak for others. It seems US people are less critical about that statements. But I've heard they are in general more superficial. Dunno if that's true.
12:22:31 MattJ Agree
12:22:47 Martin Nÿco: > emus that is only your opinion that the date change is not necessary, that is not the experience of millions if not billions of people > preferably publish on Tuedays and Thursdays, preferably avoir weekends That's why he want to release the newsletter as soon as it is done but advertise it in social media on Tuesday.
12:23:10 Martin jcbrand: > Agree +1
12:24:19 Nÿco the newsletter and blog article publication date is subject to the same laws
12:24:31 MattJ Ok
12:24:31 Nÿco social media is only promotion
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12:28:31 Martin Do you have a link why tuesday is best? I can't really understand why. I can imagine a lot of people don't read stuff on weekends as they are busy with life, friends and family but on weekdays you read your feeds while commuting. But why is Tuesday better than Monday, Wednesday, Thursday or Friday?
12:31:52 Nÿco Tuesday and Thursdays indeed
12:32:39 emus Yeah, then we promote it on Tuesday. No thats a thing you bring in now where its a bit to late as we were up to close review. which havent been a point in the last releases I made. Actually I got positive feedback anyway... And thats what I care about, that agenda turnaround is annoying to me right now as we worked on that, nobody cared, but now we should just listen to the last midnight comments? No, thats not valueing for a thing that we can easily changed for the next newsletter. I already took in more reviews, to getbthings done and also its fine to tweet another day. But I also have a limited schedule and time I can invest...
12:33:11 Nÿco I don't know why mostly I just know people are busier on Mondays and Fridays, but I don't know for Wednesdays It goes the same for sales I don't have a link, I'm on mobile now
12:58:51 MattJ I believe it... I never make Prosody announcements on Fri/Sat/Sun
12:59:03 MattJ Usually we do Tuesday
12:59:14 MattJ Based on experience
13:03:14 Martin But in your case it shouldn't matter as you don't have to fight for attention as prosody users have an intrinsic motivation to follow your announcements. 🤔
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13:30:29 MattJ Prosody users encompass far more than the core XMPP community... most Prosody users are outside the active community. If posting on Tuesday means they are more likely to see the post (whether it is a release or something else) I'll do that
13:33:44 emus Sorry, I am really disappointed and angry about how things just turn around from one night to the next day and also at the very last minute to the people actually working on this.
13:36:51 MattJ You mean about what day to post? Why is it such a big deal? (either way)
13:37:16 MattJ All of this should be agreed on and documented anyway
13:37:31 MattJ That's the main issue
13:47:08 emus Yes, but for the next version and from there on. Also some stuff needs to be discuss as there were some disagreements how to do things. I just want to finish it and I just dont like it how its insisted on in the very last minute... as if we started working on this yesterday....
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16:20:25 pep. https://queer.af/@embr/104293093892408007 as an example of what I was saying earlier :)
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18:44:05 MattJ Feel free to do whatever you feel needs to be done, as a person. But the XSF is not a political org. Otherwise, where exactly do we draw the line? Which political causes do we support and which do we not?
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18:46:38 MattJ We'd spend so much time debating that, I'm pretty sure it would do more harm than good by simply distracting from the actual causes
18:46:56 MattJ We can't even agree on how to format messages
18:47:17 SouL agrees on every single word said
18:53:18 leirda FR
18:54:10 leirda ooops sorry... Please ignore that message, never intend to send it ^^'
19:10:05 pep. MattJ: the XSF is a political org, just that its stance pleases some more than others. We fundamentally disagree on this
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19:41:00 pep. Maybe the issue is that people don't understand what politics means..
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20:55:18 MattJ Sure, the "everything is political" argument. When issues cross into the domain of open standards and communication, sure, the XSF could do politics I'm sure. Tackling social inequality? There are better and more efficient vehicles for that.
20:59:10 pep. Promoting the use of federating systems and allowing people to setup their own server seems pretty clone to tackling social inequality to me :)
20:59:39 pep. Giving a venue to speak to people who generally don't have one
20:59:50 pep. s/federating/federated/
21:02:15 pep. Hence my « neutrality is a lie ». Even though we're still not doing enough to me
21:03:44 emus > MattJ: the XSF is a political org, just that its stance pleases some more than others. We fundamentally disagree on this But not a political party and not anything directly related to that. But thats on the same level as saying: Everyone is a political actor in society. That basically true but doesnt help really. I think we should focus on what we are here for and do good. Making technical standards for communication. Yes that has a policital point, but we should treat that from a technical side only. because thats where we have expertise, not in "anything else".
21:04:47 pep. We've surely lost the point since this afternoon
21:06:01 pep. I disagree with "we should treat that from a technical side only". I wish the XSF would wake up and change its political stance from « neutral » to something more useful to the other side
21:06:17 pep. « neutral » is only useful to the power in place
21:17:09 emus Could be rather technical statements we support apart from think in political statments. Those will be political in the end, too?
21:18:31 pep. Technical statements surely are political (people need to realize this). If I could I would go further though :)
21:18:52 pep. Technical statements surely are political (people need to realize this). If I could as the XSF I would go further though :)
21:20:46 Guus Can you give examples?
21:21:11 pep. Of what I would do further?
21:22:59 Guus Yes
21:23:54 pep. I'd privilege free software solutions, for one. And also try to reach out to organisations fighting for online rights, surveillance and whatnot
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21:30:22 MattJ Are you confusing a standards organisation with the EFF?
21:30:47 pep. No
21:31:20 MattJ That's definitely how it seems :)
21:32:25 pep. In any case saying we are not doing politics is just looking the other way
21:33:08 pep. I think my example above shows it quite effectively
21:33:20 pep. (+ english)
21:35:07 MattJ As I said earlier, "we" as individuals can do whatever, and through other orgs suited to the purpose. Doing non-tech stuff via the XSF is just weird and likely counterproductive
21:35:40 Guus Would that be to primarily benefit XMPP, or something else?
21:35:59 pep. "that"?
21:38:11 Guus Change the XSFs political stance from « neutral » to something more useful to the other side
21:39:02 pep. If it's about the example I gave, then I think it would benefit the community around XMPP yes, that the XSF represents
21:39:04 Guus It's still a bit abstract to me. I'm trying to get a more concrete picture of what you mean.
21:40:50 leirda MattJ: I think it is not about doing non-tech stuff via the XSF, but rather assuming that we make political choices when doing technical stuff.
21:41:03 pep. this ^
21:41:53 Guus Please be more concrete
21:42:20 leirda The example of making a federated service is a good one. We can't argue about the fact that it is a choice, because we could've done it otherwise, but it implies technical considerations.
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21:43:16 MattJ Open online communication is tech and it is the XSF's domain
21:44:03 pep. I'm not sure what this statement is supposed to mean
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21:44:40 Guus I have this problem too, but for most of the conversation. 😁
21:45:03 MattJ Yeah, I think I'm done with the whole thing
21:45:42 leirda The example of making a federated service is a good one. We can't argue about the fact that it is a choice, because we could've done it in a different manner, but it implies technical considerations.
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21:47:37 leirda I think « open » also is a political term…
21:48:00 pep. Just as much as "standard"..
21:48:29 MattJ Ok ok
21:48:43 pep. My issue today was that MattJ brought a topic to commteam saying "you should be aware of this, something something marketing". The article itself was already pretty much oriented politically (encouraging for something rather than something else). The XSF being generally « neutral » (which I think is a lie, and what's probably confusing much of the talk here), I didn't see why we'd take this into account at all, because generally we don't seem to care at all and the XSF seems to be quite happy with the status quo
21:49:36 MattJ That's the root of the misunderstanding - you assumed that I was making a political statement by posting that link
21:50:00 MattJ (and you probably will insist so, I imagine, because "everything is political")
21:50:23 pep. Well.. yes :P
21:50:33 pep. But even if you didn't,
21:50:52 MattJ And that makes no sense, am I not allowed to link to things I might disagree with?
21:51:22 pep. Ok maybe I'm saying it badly. The article itself expresses a political opinion
21:51:48 MattJ Ok, let's clear that one up... the article ran a poll
21:51:55 MattJ They reported the resulta
21:52:01 MattJ They reported the results
21:52:11 pep. And polls are exempt of political opinions?
21:52:31 MattJ Not at all, people have opinions, that's why polls are run
21:53:59 pep. And commteam taking this into account wouldn't have improved the situation. You said if it were you you'd have been silent for a week, which is just as much as a political statement
21:54:23 pep. I would have wished commteam to go on with their thing and just ignore that (which.. they did in the end?)
21:55:07 MattJ I wouldn't walk into a room full of people and start shouting about the new Prosody release without gauging the atmosphere first
21:55:28 pep. So generally during protests it's fine, but just this one we have to stay silent?
21:56:21 MattJ But we're basically doing that by posting the newsletter to social media at a time when other topics are being discussed worldwide that most people deem more important
21:56:25 pep. There has been a million times where we could have expressed an explicit opinion and we haven't, showing that we actually don't care much. Not sure why it has to change today (explicit or not)
21:56:51 MattJ Many other tech orgs have paused their announcements
21:56:59 pep. Good for them
21:57:03 MattJ I don't think it was unreasonable to raise the question here
21:57:36 MattJ And the call is not my department, but I don't want it to not be a call at all
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22:03:57 emus > There has been a million times where we could have expressed an explicit opinion and we haven't, showing that we actually don't care much. Not sure why it has to change today (explicit or not) +1
22:04:52 pep. emus, don't misunderstand me, I'd like this to change, but currently it's not the case :p
22:10:30 Guus If expressing an explicit opinion benefit the XSF goals, I'd be in favour. I'm still not seeing the how and what, though.
22:13:41 emus > emus, don't misunderstand me, I'd like this to change, but currently it's not the case :p I just wanted lazily state that I agree on what you said, known that not a matter atm
22:13:52 emus > emus, don't misunderstand me, I'd like this to change, but currently it's not the case :p I just wanted lazily state that I agree on what you said, knowing that not a matter atm
22:14:03 emus > emus, don't misunderstand me, I'd like this to change, but currently it's not the case :p I just wanted lazily state that I agree on what you said, knowing that's not a matter atm
22:16:14 emus > If expressing an explicit opinion benefit the XSF goals, I'd be in favour. I'm still not seeing the how and what, though. I can imagine many people use commercial client, because they dont know better. many things people here think of privacy are actua'ly highly valued - nevertheless people dont know how to change things. That could be one thing to attract. That reaching out to others is also in the same place. Many NGOs just never heard of xmpp I think
22:19:50 Guus I do not get what you're trying to say.
22:22:08 Guus I thinks there is a balance in commercial and non commercial clients (and other software) in XMPP?
22:23:28 Guus But, besides that, I don't see how this relates to the XSF expressing an explicit opinion.
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22:24:44 pep. It's not about it being explicit or not
22:25:37 pep. I'm probably terrible at this (communicating), so that's not helping
22:42:09 emus > But, besides that, I don't see how this relates to the XSF expressing an explicit opinion. Just saying that XMPP enables privacy. at least much more any most common software. Thats an interesting point for many political organisation. I think one example was named as EFF. Instead of being hidden this can help us being more recognised. Someone asked for profits on this
22:45:55 Guus Claiming that XMPP is privacy centered is not controversial or new. It says so in very bold letters on the landing page of xmpp.org.
22:45:59 Martin > I don't think it was unreasonable to raise the question here So I ask them why they do now and not earlier due to the HongKong protests? Because murrican lifes matter more than Asian? If you consider to make a change due to A you get vulnerable to 'A is important to you it seems but you don't give a f*** about B, C and D.
22:46:09 Martin Wrong quote sorry.
22:46:30 Martin > Many other tech orgs have paused their announcements That's the one ^
22:47:07 pep. Martin, so we should blindly follow other orgs? disregarding our history
22:47:10 pep. And goals
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22:47:23 Martin How do you read that?
22:47:42 pep. Ok maybe explain what you want to say with the quote
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22:48:20 pep. Guus, I'd say it's more about assuming that these are political choices
22:48:41 Guus That's so vague
22:48:44 pep. what is
22:48:52 Guus > Guus, I'd say it's more about assuming that these are political choices
22:50:05 Martin I don't want to follow others. I consider 'other do so' a bad argument. Many other don't do news now because the black lives matters thing is so important. But why is abducting kids for boko haram, killing in China or drug wars in Mexico not so important? Who will choose what to react on? I don't want to wear that shoe as it is an impossible task so better stay out of this and just do what you always do.
22:50:30 pep. Guus: "these" being our "neutral" stance, or privacy, federation etc. (how do they even all go together? What's "neutral" doing in here)
22:53:10 Guus > Guus: "these" being our "neutral" stance, or privacy, federation etc. (how do they even all go together? What's "neutral" doing in here) Still way to abstract for me. I don't know how to put this to use for xmpp's benefit.
22:53:49 pep. It's not about XMPP it's about the XSF's stance
22:53:55 emus > Claiming that XMPP is privacy centered is not controversial or new. It says so in very bold letters on the landing page of xmpp.org. I know, but with more active work it will be actually recognised. Everyone (e.g. Apple) claims to be secure and private. We should actually explain we "really" are or how we actually try to enable this (by technology). Just saying and explaining what might can be an advantage. The "Choices" XSF blog entry is actually a good thing what I like. Is the author still active?
22:55:30 Guus Well, I'm off to bed.
22:55:42 Guus Goodnight
22:55:45 pep. night
22:55:57 emus Guus: I think pep. would be happy already if we could make professional statements things happening. E.g. Corona app discussion as trigger. Good night.
22:56:38 pep. The covid-app is another thing.. I'd rather not talk about that :x
23:01:16 emus Yes sure, I just searched for an examole for a technical public discussion. We might could give our 2ct if it would suit.
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