XSF Communications Team - 2022-04-05

The lemmy idea was accepted! MattJ: can we setup that subdomain of xmpp.net to use? Any ideas for what? I was thinking "communities." but that's rather long too, maybe something else?

Sam: c.? l.?

I feel like no one will know what the single letter means and it will be confusing, but maybe others feel differently?

IMO people follow links/searches and don't know what URLs mean anyway, unless they're family techy in which case the brevity wins, but 🤷‍♂️

'news' is shorter, though maybe not entirely accurate

poststuffabout.

Also, noting that xmpp.net is apparently contentious, there are almost certainly other domains around the community that we could use as well

getyourunofficiallemmyhere.

I can offer subdomains of goxmpp.com, superxmpp.com, and I'm sure there would be no problem with a jabber.network subdomain, and there are some joinxmpp.* ones around I think

please no news

xmpp.net seemed like a good one to me but if anyone else thinks something else would be better I'm game for it

It's not social networking in the sense that I generally think of when someone says "social network", but maybe social.xmpp.net (or whatever domain) would be good?

maybe call it what it is. forums? social is conotated with news and twitter etc?

I feel like forums are similar but different too though

I mean, they're the same in every meaningful way, but reddit/lemmy have a slightly different focus, plus the federated aspect? I can't quite put my finger on it, maybe I'm just wrong.

At least two others in the list of public instances are using "forum."

most of the ones using a subdomain are just using "lemmy." so maybe that's fine

forum.xmpp.net, lemmy.xmpp.net, social.xmpp.net? Any seems fine to me.

I think maybe communities could also work best. then its clear that this is not == XMPP but many differnet actors

community.xmpp.net sounds good to me, shall we just go with that?

and I personally dont care with the name

length

eg. community.xmpp.net/c/newsletter could be a thing, if we wanted!

community gets my vote, I think

+1

It fits in nicely with the Lemmy terminology (which calls sub-forums "communities" I think) anyways, so that's perfect.

MattJ: can you point community.xmpp.net at 51.38.185.90 in that case and I'll get the process started?

It might conflict a bit with Movim’s notion of communities, which is very much an XMPP concept.

Too late, bike shed over :)

We already decided to paint it red.

Just a datapoint, I have no opinion on that.

Jokes aside, I don't know about that, what does movim call communities?

Movim uses communities for multi-author pubsub. So it's actually pretty close to the same thing

Sam, I've added the record, but one of the nameservers for the zone seems to be lagging. I'll ping the owner.

Thanks

> Link Mauve escribió: > It might conflict a bit with Movim’s notion of communities, which is very much an XMPP concept. > Sam escribió: > Too late, bike shed over :) > We already decided to paint it red. Sorry Sam, you decided so. I am out of this atm.

and thats also what I meant by requesting to compare what we have before we deploy

That was a joke, if it actually conflicts with something we shouldn't name it that, but I don't think it actually does or will be confusing in this case.

Yeah me neither.

We just decide to use a tool from another protocol, because tools using our protocol don’t have the UI/UX for it. :)

Its a community thing. so the note is: deploy what you want to deploy... (and increase fragmentation 👍)

Sheesh, I don't think this is worth getting so worked up over. Maybe you could try offering some constructive suggestions instead of just saying how much you dislike Sam's initiative?

The alternative on the table was: approximately nothing

Well, my constructive suggestion was - great lets do it, but compare the systems and what we want to deploy (please and twice). But that was not wanted to be heard and now people come and wonder why not another system... And I also understood its a non XSF thing, so why is it being discussed here? I am really disatisifed with this process because in the end we will need to take care on it etc... So, I dont see why my dissatisfaction is not valid...

:)

I'm just doing a personal project. You don't have to join, and you can always go compare systems and make something official later. This isn't a process or an XSF thing. I only mentioned it here because I thought people in the comms room would be interested.

Your dissatisfaction is fine, it's the way you're expressing it that's a bit offputting.

Although it's also a bit weird that you're mad that someone in the XMPP community is trying to setup a new thing. I don't recall anyone getting mad when someone setup r/xmpp, or created a movim channel about XMPP, or did a video chat thing for office hours, etc.

Anyways, it's not worth discussing, I can remove chat about it from this channel if you'd like, I just thought the comms team might be interested.

I do remember people getting mad at who setup /r/xmpp. :p

Heh, fair; I suspect I can guess.

I’m sure you can.

(TBF to them, I haven't noticed any of their time sucking behavior over there; they just post a lot of links, which is the point of reddit)

(Ah perhaps, I don’t use web forums at all so I wouldn’t notice.)

Sam: Yes understood you are doing a personal project, but I wonder how many will understand its Sam's personal project in the end? I cannot be mad at r/xmpp because it was there before I did anything here I assume. And again, I dont blame people doing things. I blame if we have the chance to align why not doing it? (And that disappoints me). And if noone wants to use it in the end, what have we won? And its not that I liked simply creating a YT channel or office hours without discussion the similar way back then as I remember. I refused to critize the way that has been processed at that time. But this time I do critize the attitude. What of my saying ecactly did offputt you or was inappropiate? Asking so, I can understand better.

The thing that bothers me is that this is what happens any time anyone in the XMPP community tries to start a project or advocate for XMPP. We can't get volunteers in part because the community is so offputting. In general if someone says "I am making am XMPP thing, anyone want to help?" you don't have to help, but instead of saying "no, this is bad, jump through hoops instead if you want to do this" you might try "Have you considered using Discord instead?" and actually providing alternatives instead of just trying to impose some sort of process on it.

emus: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/1116

Sam, feel free to message me directly or start a MUC about this project, I respect that it's not really a commteam thing (even if commteam could end up making use of it)

Yah, we should probably end the discussion here, as soon as the instance is setup I'll message a few places and let people know it exists, and if anyone wants to be involved or be an admin or anything, feel free to reach out to me of course!

Sam, I follow your argumentation until "no, this is bad, jump through hoops instead if you want to do this". I never said this. I asked for review of alternatives and discussion before deployment. And calling this offputting is also a bit harsh. And responding to this kind of saying "No I don't want to, I just want my thing" does also offput me because I wonder - is my point actually heard? Why we cannot at least collect names of alternatives before we do something together. This is not how I understand of community work. You want to deploy a system for the community, so maybe lets at least try to get some input? But here my impression is that you had your system in mind, regardless of what the others may want or suggest. Which is also fine, but putting it here and then not even letting space to elaborate (which was and is my impression until now)... well, where do wanna go in the future like this? What's the idea of how we are working here? This is what offends me in the end, too - considering my perspective to elaborate with people and actually get input on ideas before going crazy. And in general, my intention and thoughts are when I hear such things are: - Is it inventing the wheel again? Do we have solutions already? What options do we have? - Ok, then let's try to arrange etc. to get together more resources and not making it a shortterm project which dies after 2 months. I think it is not asking for too much in a diverse community. And this is why I think asking for review of options or "imposing some process/organization" is alright. But yes, if there is anything else to discuss we can direct message.

I am happy to elaborate on the thing I'm working on, if I gave the impression that I don't even want to talk about it I'm sorry. What I'm *not* happy to do is change my project because I'm not using your favorite software. Yes, I had a thing in mind, I am doing it myself one way or another. I didn't *need* to get anyone else here involved at all, I just thought you might be interested.

This is the same as when someone posts a new client and immediately gets a dozen messages saying "why didn't you use <my favorite programming language>?" or "Why is this QT instead of GTK?" or something, in my opinion, and it's extremely offputting and just makes people not want to try new things or spin up new projects.

It is absolutely fine if you want to go create some phpBB forums or evaluate 10 alternatives and pick one or whatever, feel free to go do that, but don't interrupt my project and ask that I do it your way.

Yes, I see that Sam. It's not "my favorite software". I asked for review of alternatives and other options in general as you were reaching out for a wider audience (in my impression). And as I try to serve a wider and diverse audience to my very best, I think it was rather clear I ask for this - especially in this chat - and as I thought you wanted to deploy with some more backup (and that would have been great for your good idea in general...) Well, you deploy on xmpp.net. Even its for community projects, how many more XMPP forums do you expect to be out there? What you do will be the "XMPP Forum" for 99% of the potential users now. That's why I only asked to hold on for a second and review with some sensitivity. (And at least the advantages, why this is such a good system could have been told) So, you seem to prefer to have your thing in mind and want to get them deployed no matter what. But when asking for input on such topic with this attitude I wonder if this is what ideation and collaboration should be... but maybe I have a misconception. That's definitively not the attitude I try to develop and propagate.

Newsletter: Anymore comments? time would be now

Maybe I don't understand the problem then; is the problem that it's on xmpp.net? I don't think it's going to get the adoption you seem to be suggesting, I doubt most people even want forums, but it would be nice if it did.

Anyways, doesn't matter, I am launching a Lemmy instance. Lemmy specifically. I am not interested in reviewing other alternatives, it's a lemmy instance that I want to run. It doesn't have to be on XMPP.net, and you don't have to help with it, but I am not looking to run something else or evaluate other things. It's as simple as that.

Sam: Well, I also had the idea. I just don't knew what forum software is good. That's why I wanted to hear some opinions or compare feature or what ever. Sounds maybe more, than what I was asking for

I mean, others are welcome to compare and launch their own thing, but I'm not interested in launching general forum software, my project is to launch a lemmy instance in particular. If someone else wants the best general forum stuff they are welcome to do a comparison of phpBB and Discord or whatever and launch whatever they see fit.

Yeah, I think that's just high risk of fragmenting and confusing everyone and just not good management in my opinion. And it could be sorted out easily or show how much potential acceptance is there. But I assume I have to high expectations to this

And I don't think that's true.

ok

If nobody uses this there is nothing lost; if everybody uses it, great, who cares if technically some other non-federated alternative would have been slightly better? There is literally no risk to trying this and it's something I've wanted to use for my own projects for a while. So instead of bike shedding, I'm just going to do it.

If a few people use it and a few people setup and use a discord (for example): great, there's still nothing lost and the fragmentation literally doesn't matter and isn't any worse than having some people on reddit today and some people on mastodon and some people on movim, for example.

Sam: there's a risk of concluding _"nobody used it 'cause they're haters"_

Licaon_Kter: I didn't understand that, sorry?

Who would conclude that and would it matter if they did? I mean, maybe everyone else hates lemmy, that's fine, then we try something else later if this is an idea we want

Well, maybe everyone says "yes please lets go for lemmy". Then why not deploy it with some more official backup?

Sam: fwiw jonas took over the xmpp.link domain I had. I don't know if he's got plans for it, maybe worth asking

Nothing at all, feel free to go do that. In the mean time, I have a personal project where I'm launching a lemmy instance, if the XSF wants to do something with it later they're welcome to it.

huh, TIL: ".link" nice.

Sam: > I didn't understand that, sorry? You said... > This is the same as when someone posts a new client and immediately gets a dozen messages saying "why didn't you use <my favorite programming language>?" or "Why is this QT instead of GTK?" or something, in my opinion, and it's extremely offputting and just makes people not want to try new things or spin up new projects. ...

oooh, I see, the author of the software might conclude that because they got those sorts of messages? Yah, it's one of the reasons it's bad that this sort of feedback happens a lot instead of actual feedback about the parts of the client that matter

I remember being at FOSDEM back in the before times when travel was safe and hearing a cool talk about Telepathy development or something. I had a question I wanted to ask, and then some person in the audience asked "why didn't you do all this work on libpurple instead of using a terrible thing like telepathy?". I didn't get to ask my question because they argued with the presenter for half the Q&A session. I was furious, presumably the presenter felt bad, etc. Not great.

Well, sorry if I made you felt bad in the end. I felt also ignored and got really disappointed, too. See from an organizational, resource and communicating perspective. Here I think it is alright to ask this and I will continue to ask for this if ideas are getting raise topics here. Yeah, we all want to just wanna do our thing... We had one single reviewer from the community so far. I seriously asked this month to support on PR and release preparation because I had issues to keep up this month - but here I'm sitting again doing most of it. And then we wonder why I ask where to put resources and being frustrated if people go for their own low-hanging fruits only and then telling me to shut up if I question their attempts...

These are the contributors for this newsletter: anyone missing?

Adrien Bourmault (neox), anubis, Anoxinon e.V., Benoît Sibaud, cpm, daimonduff, emus, Ludovic Bocquet, Licaon_Kter, MattJ, nicfab, Sam Whited, TheCoffeMaker, wurstsalat, Ysabeau, Zash

this and the last one

emus, 👌️

Oh that makes me think I published stuff on my blog this month (April), so next newsletter? But maybe it's fine for this just to go on the planet. There's the poezio release also coming this month.

emus: I wrote a line about jmp newsletter in the pad for this newsletter

pep. I should remove it? I meant only names who helped. it is not easy to distingush who helped when, so translators I usually look also the last month. News are collected monthly basis

singpolyma I will add your name

emus: sorry I wasn't reacting to your message

Do you mean you added the article? I wasn't aware

Checking github

okay, hmm now I am confused too 😀 everything from March goes in. Everything from April next release

pep. ^

Yeah it's for April then, sorry to be confusing :)

> [Poezio `0.13.2`](https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/-/tags/v0.13.2) has been released with a fix for the newest slixmpp.

Ah, right there's this release

It's just so that it doesn't break with the new slix though, the real one is coming :)

Maybe remove it if it's not too much a hassle

this is what will be in todays newsletter release, ok? next one you can add it to the pad already

https://yopad.eu/p/xmpp-newsletter-365days

add your name as well in the contributor section if you want to be named ✏

I'm not on the computer right now, I can be in a few minutes

ok, are you sure?

to remove?

Nah my name doesn't have to be in there

Yeah, 0.14 will have a blog article etc.

ok, please add pictures if possible 🙂

Hehe

Final call

## Editorial closing of the XMPP Newsletter March 2022 release - Many thanks to everyone!!! This release to **Adrien Bourmault (neox), anubis, Anoxinon e.V., Benoît Sibaud, cpm, daimonduff, emus, Ludovic Bocquet, Licaon_Kter, MattJ, nicfab, Sam Whited, singpolyma, TheCoffeMaker, wurstsalat, Ysabeau, Zash** for their help in creation, review and translation! - ❤️ 🎆️ Next release is next year on 5th of May 2022! Have a good time until then and see you soon! ✏

Nice; congrats!

Thanks!

٩(◕‿◕｡)۶

Typo? /next year/next month > - ❤️ 🎆️ Next release is next year on 5th of May 2022! emus:

omg ^^ but it is not the newsletter

https://xmpp.org/2022/04/the-xmpp-newsletter-march-2022/

There was once such a typo, lol

LK what do you mean?

Any gramma issues in this? The #XMPP Newsletter for March '22 is out! Many thanks to all the contributors! Read about the last month activities in the XMPP community and specification developments (#XEP)! Enjoy reading! 📰 ☕ https://xmpp.org/2022/04/the-xmpp-newsletter-march-2022/

hey, so March has already been merged with poezio 0.13.2 in it?

Or can I removed it still?

I did remove it: https://xmpp.org/2022/04/the-xmpp-newsletter-march-2022/ See you mail also

pep. ok?

Thanks :)

Toot: https://fosstodon.org/web/@xmpp/108081220463585550 Tweet: https://twitter.com/xmpp/status/1511432207818280970

Looks like the GoJara plugin for Openfire link is broken, FYI

emus: the actual email will reach us when?

When I dealt with the new setup. I am on it righ now

Oh

singpolyma - may you have some time to support regarding mailman? I wonder how I can best send the mail to the maillist and have at least a bit of nice formatting and not plain text only

emus: oh, hmm. I think mailman can support HTML email. I've never used it that way, but if you send one I think it will pass it through

Can you copy the newsletter page into a mail draft? At least that is how I am trying to do it via protonmail?

Yeah, with an HTML supporting email client cut-paste should preserve most formatting

The only thing that does not work are images. They are not shown at all. Shall I leave it like this for the moment?

The other format is "okay" note alike the website and Tinyletter. but one can still read nicely I think

https://jabbers.one:5281/upload/uaDAiBEXbD2sd1mQ/6ad1025d-c7ee-4eeb-beab-4f6520e14f8c.png

I will send it without pictures ok?

yeah, images in an email are possible but doing it in a privacy respecting way is even more work I think, depends on client support etc

ok

Okay, wish me luck and check your mailbox

Licaon_Kter - anything in your mailbox?

> Looks like the GoJara plugin for Openfire link is broken, FYI Was fixed too?

> Licaon_Kter - anything in your mailbox? Nope

come with the next website deployment

must have been send

https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/newsletter/2022/000000.html

No one else on the maillist received anything?

Does the static site generator you're using has a way to run hooks btw? For example there could be a thing that also publishes (and updates) on microblog whenever an article is published

I don't know if there's such an app but "it shouldn't be that hard"?

Would be good to dogfood a bit

> pep. escribió: > Does the static site generator you're using has a way to run hooks btw? For example there could be a thing that also publishes (and updates) on microblog whenever an article is published wurstsalat:

pep.: what means dogfooding?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dogfood#Verb

Using our own stuff

emus, using our own tools to improve them :)

there is hugo server

command if you mean this?

Ok I'll have a look at hugo, I also use it but I've never at a look at hooks

Im not sure what you mean my hooks. You want to preview?

By hook I mean, a script that hugo would run when we generate the website, passing it arguments as well

And that script we would make it publish to microblog

ah okay. well, I have not done the setup so I likely cannot answer. You mean push it something like movim?

No, but yes. I mean no, we'd just push it to XMPP, but yes that's "something like Movim" :)

ok, well I think more automation would be nice. also to create the monthly new PRs. But I dont know how. Lets wait what wurstsalat says if that works. maybe its could be a github action too?

Maybe it could be a github action too, dunno.

I'll have a quick look at hugo

pep.: can you create a PR and describe your idea. I think wurstsalat will pick up on this later, at least comment what can work

sorry, I meant issue

Yeah sure, I'll do that :)

cool!

pep.: I don't know about hooks, but the page is prepared and built using `make publish` (including various commands). What you're after would probably be something like "if new article -> post there". Dunno if the RSS feed would be enough for that?

But it sounds like that a merge could trigger this somehow too

Sure, there is a Github action for linting, but there could be others as well

wurstsalat, hmm yeah I guess we don't exactly need hugo hooks, dunno. Even though we might have benefited from hugo converting stuff to html. Maybe we can just run the thing afterwards

We'd also need to be able to update articles

Are the articles written in markdown?

Because if the flavour is pretty normal any other tool can probably do the HTML compile. Pandoc etc

Yeah I guess. though we might want to keep the theme?

I mean we can publish both formats