XMPP Council - 2010-08-16

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  7. mlundblad is there a meeting today?
  8. stpeter as I understand it, yes
  9. stpeter and hi :)
  10. mlundblad hi :)
  11. mlundblad Olivier Crête spoke about someone formalising the psuedo-udp ft stuff from google as a "standard" jingle spec. is this in the XSF's inbox?
  12. stpeter not in the inbox yet
  13. stpeter well
  14. mlundblad I have somewhat mixed feelings about that...
  15. stpeter there is http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/jingle-httpft.html
  16. mlundblad yeah
  17. mlundblad I was under the impression that this would meerly be a jingle transport spec.
  18. stpeter ah
  19. mlundblad not sure, though...
  20. stpeter that one
  21. stpeter yeah, there's been talk about documenting that, but no action
  22. mlundblad maybe I'm slanting towards thinking that might be a good idea, compared to ice-tcp
  23. mlundblad but maybe not...
  24. stpeter the http-over-pseudo-tcp-over-udp stuff is kind of crazy, but that doesn't mean it's bad :)
  25. mlundblad I think maybe the http stuff is overkill, though
  26. mlundblad another crazy thing though, psuedo-tcp-over-udp-over-a-tcp-relayed-turn-candidate...
  27. mlundblad yikes
  28. stpeter heehee
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  34. ralphm hi
  35. Kev Evening Ralph.
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  37. stpeter hiya
  38. stpeter brb
  39. ralphm warming up my foods
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  41. stpeter me too :)
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  43. Kev Right, Hello meetingtime
  44. ralphm Hooray!
  45. Kev Matt and Remko are both online, just getting them to join.
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  48. stpeter gosh I love these people who go on vacation for a month -- how is that possible?
  49. Kev Sounds nice doesn't it? :)
  50. ralphm stpeter: come live in europe
  51. stpeter I did take a two-week vacation back in 1994, that was quite relaxing :P
  52. Kev Right.
  53. Kev So.
  54. Kev Stop. Meeting time.
  55. Kev 1) Roll call.
  56. Kev Fritzy, Kev, MattJ, ralphm, remko.
  57. ralphm goes dmm, dm, dm, dm
  58. Kev 2) Agenda bashing anyone?
  59. MattJ Not here
  60. remko nope
  61. Kev Ok then.
  62. Kev 3) ProtoXEP - XMPP on Mobile Devices http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/mobile.html Accept as Experimental?
  63. ralphm yes, interesting matter
  64. remko indeed
  65. Kev I'm not objecting.
  66. Kev Fritzy / Matt?
  67. Kev Commenting on list's fine if you've not read it.
  68. MattJ No objection here, I'm glad someone finally wrote it up :)
  69. stpeter yep, that looks helpful
  70. stpeter plus I love it when someone other than me writes specs :)
  71. MattJ :)
  72. Kev stpeter: Well, Matt and I have a big stack waiting for limelight :)
  73. ralphm MattJ: how's that my-client-doesn't-support-SIFT-but-I-still-want-it feature?
  74. MattJ ralphm, which was that?
  75. MattJ or you mean the intelligent presence buffering?
  76. ralphm yeah, but such that I can tell my server to do it for a particular resource. Like 'Maemo'
  77. MattJ or a given disco identity? :)
  78. ralphm sure!
  79. Kev Ok, I think Fritzy's gone AFK, so moving on.
  80. Kev 4) ProtoXEP - Digital Signatures in XMPP http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/dsig.html Accept as Experimental?
  81. ralphm +1, I'm curious about the TBDs
  82. remko no objection
  83. Kev Heh, you like it more than I do.
  84. MattJ Why is it necessary to encode the contents like that?
  85. Kev I'm not convinced about signed messages being illegible to non-signing clients - i.e. you could never send signed messages to a MUC.
  86. MattJ Even e2e had some normalization routines, presumably for the same reasons
  87. stpeter I wonder if anyone will sign their XMPP stanzas, given that precious few seem to sign their email messages and that technology has been around for a long time
  88. Kev stpeter: Well, in email I can still read your mails.
  89. Kev Even though I don't process and verify the signatures.
  90. ralphm MattJ: from what I've been told, normalization like in XMLSig is quite horrible
  91. Kev That's not true here.
  92. remko kev: indeed
  93. remko kev: that doesn't really sound very good
  94. stpeter nods
  95. remko it's probably a workaround for the whitespace etc.
  96. remko but still, there shoudl be a better one
  97. MattJ ralphm, e2e did seem to manage, minus one case in the XEP that suggested stripping whitespace in a given instance was enough normalization
  98. Kev Well, I quite like the copy-and-sign approach, where you encode, like this, what you signed so it's there for verifying clients, and other clients get it in plaintext.
  99. Kev But I'm not winning this argument with Kurt, so I'm abstaining on this non-vote.
  100. stpeter IMHO it's early days for signing
  101. stpeter heck, it's still early days for encryption!
  102. remko stpeter: true
  103. Kev So, where are we?
  104. ralphm Well, I'm ok with it being a XEP, not necessarily thinking this is the best approach.
  105. Kev Remko and Ralph are +1, Matt was ...?
  106. Kev and Fritzy's AFK :)
  107. MattJ +1 to publishing
  108. Kev That actually raises an interesting question - if a Council member is in the room, but AFK, for a meeting, does that count as present?
  109. MattJ But I 1) think it needs some discussion going forward 2) don't think it's going to see implementations like this
  110. remko i agree with matt
  111. stpeter if a tree falls in the forest...
  112. ralphm Kev: does that actually matter?
  113. stpeter nods to MattJ
  114. Kev ralphm: Well, stats are kept on people's voting and attendance history, so people can do sensible things with voting in Sept/Oct.
  115. Kev Whether people use them is another matter, but they're there.
  116. Kev Anyway.
  117. MattJ I could easily leave my client idle here 24/7 then :)
  118. Kev MattJ: Right.
  119. Kev 5) Winding down Council. Anything we want/need to do before the end of term?
  120. Kev Peter'd like us to get some file transfer headway made.
  121. MattJ I've nothing to say that we didn't discuss on list
  122. MattJ Archiving, etc.
  123. Kev Yes, well, I'm happy to push my specs out if you are yours :)
  124. ralphm file transfer would be nice indeed
  125. MattJ FWIW I have some comments on Jingle (it's a pain to implement)
  126. ralphm MattJ: in general?
  127. stpeter Kev: well, given that I promised to review the reviews of file transfer, I have action items I can take
  128. Kev stpeter: Jolly good, nothing for me to do yet, then.
  129. Kev 7) Date of next meeting.
  130. Kev Next Monday, assuming we have things to discuss?
  131. ralphm yes
  132. stpeter :)
  133. MattJ ralphm, well I'm implementing Jingle File Transfer, the main Jingle spec defines a lot of things vaguely that aren't followed up on in JFT
  134. remko +1
  135. Kev 8) Any other business?
  136. MattJ The spec was clearly split into signalling/RTP at some point, the split wasn't quite right IMHO
  137. stpeter MattJ: "the spec" = 166?
  138. ralphm MattJ: ah, so the specs are unclear? Not necessarily bad?
  139. MattJ stpeter, yes
  140. MattJ ralphm, I think (hope) mostly just unclear
  141. stpeter Kev: Council members need to decide if they are going to stand for consideration again, I suppose
  142. MattJ For example...
  143. MattJ http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0166.html#session-negotiation
  144. MattJ This section has no protocol description at all
  145. Kev stpeter: I'll be seeing if there are enough sensible candidates other than me, and deciding then.
  146. MattJ Yet negotiation is surely the most significant part of Jingle :)
  147. stpeter MattJ: heh
  148. Kev I do think I've been on Council a while, and people should step down after that long if there are sensible replacements.
  149. stpeter MattJ: in general, I think we've been defining Jingle via examples such as XEP-0167
  150. Kev Ok, I'm taking this as no more other more business.
  151. MattJ Kev, turning that around... isn't that up to the members to decide?
  152. stpeter MattJ: I "discovered" some things about Jingle by writing the file transfer specs
  153. remko i'm steppnig down, because of lack of time to focus appropriately
  154. MattJ stpeter, as one of the few developers that doesn't develop implementations purely by reading examples, that's awkward :)
  155. Kev MattJ: possibly.
  156. Kev Right, I'll write up some minutes, probably tomorrow.
  157. Kev Thanks all.
  158. MattJ Thanks Kev
  159. Kev bangs the gavel.
  160. ralphm MattJ: hehe. Maybe you can provide some examples to be added to the spec?
  161. stpeter MattJ: by examples I meant "RTP is one example of how we'd use Jingle, but file transfer is another example / use case"
  162. MattJ ralphm, I wish I could, but I literally have no idea what that part of the protocol is meant to be like
  163. stpeter MattJ: the same is true on the transport side (UDP, TCP, etc.)
  164. ralphm MattJ: I actually think this part is intentionally vague
  165. MattJ 166 describes all these commands, content-add, content-replace, etc... without saying how to use them or what they mean
  166. MattJ Ok, if it's intentionally vague then it should say so
  167. stpeter it is intentionally vague, but as we have more applications we could strengthen the core spec
  168. MattJ and the file transfer XEP should explicitly say what each command means
  169. MattJ But it doesn't
  170. MattJ Meaning at the moment I am basically implementing by 1) example 2) interop with Gajim's new code
  171. mlundblad two-week vacation?
  172. mlundblad I had a short vacation this year, only four weeks :D
  173. ralphm stpeter: for most of these things, doesn't the actual profile decide the protocol bits going in these actions?
  174. stpeter ralphm: yes
  175. stpeter ralphm: although I agree with Matthew that we could be clearer in 166
  176. stpeter mlundblad: :P
  177. ralphm stpeter: I'm unsure how to then make it more clear except by writing a fictional profil
  178. ralphm e
  179. stpeter right
  180. stpeter that's how I learned :)
  181. ralphm didn't we try that?
  182. stpeter it's like writing a novel, the characters take on a life of their own :)
  183. MattJ http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0234.html doesn't mention any of the Jingle commands
  184. ralphm XEP-0208, I think
  185. MattJ I take it back... it mentions transport-info
  186. MattJ and then links to an example that uses session-info
  187. stpeter ok those are all good points
  188. MattJ The box under example 1
  189. stpeter in part file transfer is much simpler than voice and video, so it has no need for many of the Jingle commands
  190. stpeter however
  191. mlundblad transport-replace
  192. stpeter I think it would be good to say that
  193. mlundblad but that is in s5b, I think
  194. stpeter Kev: do we have definitive feedback on the message threads XEP?
  195. MattJ stpeter, I agree... which is why I suggested the split in the XEPs was in the wrong place
  196. stpeter Kev: perhaps we need to chat about that and figure out what changes are needed
  197. Kev We've got feedback from Matt, does that count?
  198. ralphm sure it does
  199. Kev MattJ: You're the definitive voice of XMPP. Congratulations :)
  200. MattJ \o/
  201. stpeter heehee
  202. stpeter the other point about file transfer was that we want to get feedback from the GSoC implementers
  203. MattJ Now if only I could finish this overdue work so I can catch up with other spec reviews
  204. stpeter MattJ: yeah, understood
  205. stpeter oh and I have more XMPP WG feedback to address, too
  206. stpeter fun
  207. Kev stpeter: I'm happy to have a work through threads with you if you like, but not tonight.
  208. stpeter at least I'm adding acknowledgements so that all you helpful reviewers receive some credit
  209. Kev Ta muchly.
  210. Kev My name in lights :)
  211. stpeter Kev: sure, perhaps tomorrow or Wednesday or whatever
  212. Kev Right, AFK.
  213. stpeter Mondays can be crazy, I know :)
  214. Fritzy Mondays suck.
  215. stpeter heh
  216. stpeter MattJ: thanks for your helpful feedback -- I sense some revisions on the way
  217. MattJ You're welcome :)
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