KevI've actually read the protoXEPs in advance, it must be a Monday :)
Fritzy:)
Kevstpeter: I gave waqas r/o access to the repo, btw, when he asked earlier. Said he didn't need r/w yet.
stpeterok
stpeterWFM
Tobiaswhat's r/o?
Kevread/only
Tobiasahh :)
MattJhas joined
MattJDoesn't everyone have read access?
KevNot through ssh.
KevAnd we've not set up a public mirror yet afaik.
TobiasKev: gitosis only manages access to the repo, right?
KevYes.
KevWhy or what were you wondering about?
Tobiassince we seem to have no git savvy email post commit hook notification expert around i'm making myself one :)
KevDoes such a thing not exist already?
Tobiasit does
Tobiasit just needs to be activated by someone :)
Tobiask..i wonder if that work
Tobias*works
Koodahas joined
stpeterof the Council members, I see Ralph and Remko online, with Matthew being awat
stpeteraway even
FritzyI'm here too
KevYep, got 15mins though.
stpeterjust noting :)
ralphmhas joined
stpeterwanders off for tea
ralphmslowly gets back into action after a well-deserved-but-way-too-short holiday
KevMine was a week.
KevWell, 4 days away.
ralphmyeah, mine was 7 workingdays
ralphmincluding today
ralphmbut we had a colo outage over the weekend
ralphmso...
MattJis back
MattJTimed dinner just right :)
stpeterheh
KevJust enough time for me to brb before 7.
KevAnd we're on.
MattJHas anyone poked Remko?
KevI've reminded him at 14 minutes and 0 minutes.
MattJFair enough
KevI expect he'll be along, he acked the 14minute reminder.
remkohas joined
remkohowdy
KevThere.
MattJYay :)
Kev1) Roll call.
KevSausage bap.
Fritzyhere
KevAlso: all here.
Fritzy<presence />
Kev2) Agenda bashing.
ralphmwoot!
stpeterwanders back in
MattJNone
Fritzycurrent agenda is ok
remkonone
Kev3) ProtoXEP - Spim Markers and Reports:
http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/spim.html
KevAccept as a XEP?
waqashas joined
KevI had various comments to make about this, but nothing to stop us throwing it up as Experimental.
FritzyI have a lot of problems with it
ralphmoh, the evil bit
MattJwaits to hear Fritzy's problems
ralphmI thought we already had a spec for that
Kevralphm: Yes.
FritzyI'm going to vote -1 and email to the list my comments
KevOk - this is substantial stuff that can't be sorted out while it's on the vine, then?
FritzyWell, sure -- let me go stream of thought
ralphmhttp://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0076.html
stpeterheh
KevI'd rather we had something we could put in the minutes as a reason for rejecting it :)
ralphmI see many things wrong with this spec even at a glance
FritzyI don't like the filters extending the presence stanza
ralphmlike abusing presence for pubsub
MattJralphm, eh?
ralphmFritzy: fools seldom differ
Fritzy?
ralphmMattJ: like example 3
ralphmthis is clearly a horrible way to do things
MattJralphm, I don't see why... it's not abusing presence for pubsub
MattJThose tags could be on a message stanza too
FritzyAlso, I don't see how a complaint actually associates itself with what it is complaining about -- maybe I'm missing something here?
ralphmit is, it is soliciting a subscription for stuff through presence
MattJFritzy, the "key" attribute
stpeterOT hmph, did we not add this meeting to the calendar?
MattJstpeter, if you didn't and I didn't then I guess not
stpeteroops
FritzyMattJ: the key is associated with the subscription to the filter -- not the stanza it is complaining about
FritzyMattJ: or am I really missing something big here?
MattJralphm, no, you're missing it...
MattJralphm, that's a normal subscription request from one user to another user
MattJThe <report> elements are to tell the recipient where to report spim to
waqasstpeter: I'd also request notifications posted on identi.ca for council meetings. I always miss the meetings.
MattJThey are inserted by the filters as the stanza passes through
ralphmMattJ: I understand that
Kevwaqas: I'm not opposed to that. Although I'd rather I didn't have to remember it.
MattJFritzy, subscription to the filter?
KevSomething for AOB.
ralphmanyway
dwdhas joined
FritzyI don't see what the complaint is for since it only contains to the key to the filter subscription.
MattJWhat filter subscription?
Fritzyexample 3
dwd[log URI?]
MattJFritzy, Read what I said to ralphm above
MattJYou and he need to read the XEP again I suspect :)
ralphmI believe we once figured out a way to discover special addresses at servers
ralphme.g. for reaching admins and what not
Fritzyah
Fritzyok
FritzyI get that now
ralphmI think that should cover it
MattJFritzy, to be clear that stanza is just an example, it could also be a <message>
Fritzyso you're complaining about a specific jid
MattJObviously if 2 *council members* don't understand this then the XEP needs clarifying :)
KevFor what it's worth, I didn't think this was anything like as bad as you two do.
TobiasMattJ: or the xep needs to wait for a new council ;)
MattJNo, I like it... it's simple, and fits well with the other XEPs we have
FritzyMattJ: or wait, you're complaining about the stanza that is marked with a key.
MattJFritzy, yes, now you're getting it :)
ralphmMattJ: maybe you are right. I am still unsure about the usefulness.
Fritzysounds useful to me... if a bit noisy
MattJFor example, reports could lower entity reputation, they could automatically add to block lists, etc.
KevI'll agree with it being noisy, but I think you need that if you want this level of control.
MattJFritzy, if you read further it says to only include these tags in certain stanzas
Fritzyright, I see that.
MattJLike initial subscription requests, or messages from people not in your roster
MattJSo yes, it's "noisy", but only where it has to be
FritzyThere might also be a need to optionally have a form for complaints from specific filters to make it more useful.
MattJThe alternative would be to drop per-stanza reporting, but that has issues
Fritzyso you could explain what you're complaining about
Fritzyor suggest an action
ralphmI think the marking bit is ok, but I'm not very sure about soliciting reports on individual stanzas
MattJYes, I think Dave may have suggested something like that on the list
KevOk, so, cutting this short.
KevAre Fritzy and/or Ralph still -1?
stpeterusing <presence type='subscribe'/> seems odd for this purpose...
MattJstpeter, not you too... :)
KevI picked a good day to take time out to read the proposals at length, I think :)
MattJstpeter, that is a normal subscription request from one user to another user
MattJKev, likewise :)
stpeteranyway I can post to the list about it
KevSo, the proposal clearly needs clarification.
ralphmMattJ: the problem is not in the fact that it is presence, it is the fact that every stanza is littered with lists of filters that you could report a stanza to as 'spim'.
MattJstpeter, the "filters" inject these tags so that the recipient can know where to report the stanza to
Fritzystpeter: it isn't using -- it's just marking that to show how to complain about
dwdFWIW, my general thought was that it's an interesting start, we need something like this, and this is a solidly documented proposal.
KevThe question is if Fritzy and Ralph are still vetoing it.
MattJdwd, I agree
KevThere are much less well-written protoXEPs.
MattJis +1
ralphmdwd: true
KevSeveral are sitting in my outbox.
dwdThe details could be a lot better, but it's a step in the right direction and a solid base.
ralphmdwd: would you implement something like this?
stpeterhowever, I am almost always in favor of publication to get discussion going, put the spec into source control, etc.
ralphmMattJ: ?
Kevralphm: I'd strongly consider it (client)
MattJralphm, yes?
stpeternot that I have vote at the moment :)
KevOk, this item is going on much too long.
ralphmI am trying to get a feel of the demand for something like this
KevFritzy: Are you still -1?
Kevralphm: Are you still -1?
MattJralphm, I'd implement it
MattJFor sure
FritzyI'm no longer vetoing it for experimental, but I think it warrants some cleanup and discussion.
dwdI suspect some of our partners may be interested. I suspect we might be too. With some evolution, obviously.
KevSpam filtering is something that would really interest me to implement server-side.
ralphmI'm 0
dwdFritzy, Oh, for sure.
MattJWe've accepted far worse protoXEPs... :)
KevAppeals to my past life as a labrat.
KevOk, excellent.
MattJYay
dwdKev, Just *don't* mention it to David...
KevThe XEP Editor can publish, and we'll free-for-all on the standards list.
KevI object to the formatting of example 3 breaking the XML highlighter, but am in favour.
MattJOnly time has stopped me implementing this
KevI've already complained to one of the authors about that :)
ralphmdwd: I'm curious about idleness and disconnects
dwdThis is Fippo's write-up of my suggestion of resolving Justin's issue as raised in 2003 or something.
FritzyDefinitely +1
Fritzywe need to get somethign out there that solves this.
Kevremko:?
remko+1
ralphmdwd: did you think about that yet?
dwdralphm, I believe that's unaffected. Indeed, I think it's much easier to manage idleness and 198 and things with bidi.
Kev5) New term applications reminder.
dwdralphm, For a start, doing ping-checks across S2S is a PITA.
MattJReminded, thanks :)
dwdralphm, (without bidi)
stpeternotices that Kev is in 30-minute-meeting mode
KevJust a reminder to anyone thinking of reapplying or applying that the application period will close in a touch over a week.
remkook
Kevstpeter: Kev is *always* in 30min meeting mode.
KevOr ideall 20.
MattJdwd, it's not when you have send_iq() :)
Kev6) Date of next meeting.
KevFritzy: Mondays are difficult for you - when is less difficult?
dwdMattJ, No, because the response still comes back over a different socket.
MattJdwd, doesn't matter... it means the one you sent on is fine
FritzyTues-Fri any other time is less difficult
KevFritzy: Any *other* time?
KevImplying this time is bad any day?
dwdMattJ, Track that over a cluster...
MattJdwd, I shall do some day :)
FritzyMonday afternoon or Tues-Fri any time.
ralphmFritzy: UTC times, please
KevLater than this is a nuisance for me, and I suspect other .eu people, although I could manage an hour later ok I think.
Fritzy+2 hrs than this or Tues-Fri
waqashas left
FritzyI'm fine with next Monday same time though
Fritzyjust as a tendency
ralphm:-)
FritzyI often have meetings on Monday morning
KevOk.
Fritzyand other catch-up
stpeteris it worth working this out before the new Council is elected?
KevWell, does anyone have difficulty with Tuesday, at the same time?
ralphmstpeter: my thought
Fritzystpeter: yeah, I'm fine with working this out in the next council if I'm still on
ralphmlets just finish the term with this slot
Kevstpeter: There are enough weeks left that if 20% of Council can't make the meetings, it's probably worth sorting IMO.
stpeter(if there is a new Council considering that http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2010 is empty!)
ralphmwoops
MattJ:D
ralphmcopy/pastes
Fritzyhaha
Kevstpeter: My app's written, but not linked.
stpeterdarn, I was hoping to be elected the Council-of-One :)
Fritzylet's just do Monday next week for now
Fritzysame time same bat-channel
KevOk.
remkook
KevAny other business?
ralphmstpeter: you're running?
KevCalendaring and microblogs from waqas.
Fritzyyay
ralphmoh
ralphmapplication for fosdem
Kevk.
KevSo, Matt - are you still (generally) doing the calendar entries?
ralphmwe want the full shebang again?
stpeterralphm: I was going to if no one else did, that way I could dispense with all this democratic-process nonsense :)
Kevralphm: Let's do the other first.
ralphmKev: ok
MattJKev, I was, then stpeter was... that got me out of the habit :)
MattJI can start reminding myself again
KevOk.
KevWho wants to announce on identi.ca?
ralphmwait what?
KevIs there an XSF account?
MattJstpeter is busy enough that we should ban him from trivial things like editing calendars
KevDo we want to do this?
stpeterif it's in the calendar, people will tend to remember it
MattJThere is an XSF account
stpeterKev: there is
FritzyI believe there is an XSF account on identi.ca
ralphmdo what?
KevAnnounce meetings on identi.ca - it was waqas's suggestion earlier.
ralphmah
ralphmsure
ralphm+1
KevI'm happy to delay such changes to process until the new Council take over.
stpeterattendance goes up if we announce it 15 minutes before the meeting
Fritzyxmpp uris!
ralphmKev: nah
KevBut we can start doing it now
Kevwho wants to do it?
ralphmKev: you!
stpeterI find myself not paying attention to identi.ca anymore :(
KevI guess the Chair can do it, but he's likely to forget.
MattJHow about... I take it on, but I'll write a bot
Kevstpeter: I've disabled the XMPP bot now, too distracting.
ralphmMattJ: haha
stpeter+1 to bot
KevMattJ: perfect, ta.
KevOk.
KevFOSDEM:
KevRalph :)
ralphmright
KevYour 2 minutes start now.
stpeterMattJ: poke me if you need the password for the XSF account
ralphmit's that time of year again to apply for a devroom and a booth
MattJstpeter, I think I know it, thanks
ralphmat FOSDEM
stpeterk
ralphm5/6 feb 2011
Kevralphm: I'm inclined to say we want the status quo.
ralphmok
Kevdevroom was overflowing last year.
stpeteryeah that was fun
ralphmDid I do the application this year?
MattJHeh
ralphmI forgot
ralphmI can do it this time, again
stpeteryes you did
stpeterat least, I didn't :)
ralphm:-)
KevI think this is probably Board, rather than Council, mind.
MattJralphm, you could always ask the assistance of the communications team if you need it :)
stpeterBoard meeting on Tuesday of this week
stpeterwe could discuss there
Tobiasdwd: a little late, just had to add an A record, but here are the logs :P http://logs.xmpp.org/muc_log/muc.xmpp.org/council/100920/
ralphmKev: nah, it has always been done by me, basically
stpeterxmpp:xsf@muc.xmpp.org?join
stpeterit's in the calendar, too
ralphmwith no particular strong binding to the xsf
FritzyCan bidi be extended to include dwd's multi-domain per s2s connection with signatures?
Tobiasset the topic toXMPP Council Room | http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Radar | http://logs.xmpp.org/muc_log/muc.xmpp.org/council/
stpeterralphm: right
ralphmalthough we always went as such
stpeterralphm: and I'm fine with that!
Tobiasset the topic toXMPP Council Room | http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Radaras
MattJTobias, sensible URLs for the logs? You deserve a bonus :)
MattJTobias, I couldn't get that working
TobiasMattJ: i didn't do nothing :)
Tobiasjust had the record added :D
ralphmjust more of a reminder, and I'm wondering if we plan to do a summit again
Kevralphm: Well, if we get a room, I'm happy.
TobiasMattJ: config and all was already there
MattJWe're doing a summit if we can get somewhere with windows, I think
KevI'd hope we'd do a summit again, although that needs (probably Board) volunteers to arrange.
ralphmMattJ: +1
KevRight, windows would be nice. Internets even nicer.
MattJWe've been underground far too long :)
stpeterI've heard that I can get a free meeting room at a Cisco location near the airport (not in the center)
Kevstpeter: I think that's worth strongly considering.
stpeterbut I need to ask and get that organized
stpeterto see if it's doable
KevCould someone ask Board to discuss this tomorrow, please?
stpeteryes
TobiasMattJ: but i guess it would be nice to eliminate the the mud_log/muc.xmpp.org parts..it blows the whole thing up and there aren't any other muc components running
KevTa.
MattJTobias, +1
stpeterBoard meetings are open, BTW
KevI think we're out of agenda items then, unless there's AOAOB.
MattJI'm done
Kevstpeter: I'll be trying to remember to attend.
KevI'll knock out the minutes tomorrow morning, probably.
ralphmhands the gavel
KevOk, we're done then
Kevbangs the gavel.
KevThanks all.
MattJThanks
ralphmhooray
FritzyKev/stpeter: has there been any progress made on multi-domain and single cert + signatures per s2s connection?
remkothanks
stpeterKev: added to http://typewith.me/EyJg4G3XSr
ralphmoh, fosdem also requests ideas for main track speakers
Kevstpeter: ta.
Fritzyaka: the gtalk problem
ralphmnot something I've done, but if anyone wants to speak...
stpeterFritzy: see http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barnes-xmpp-dna-00
Fritzystpeter: thanks
stpeterFritzy: there is also http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xmpp-dna-00 (expired), but the doc from Richard Barnes incorporates discussion at the meeting in Maastricht in late July
Fritzycool
MattJralphm, I'd likely forget to take my coat off ;)
stpeterKev: will you have time to write up minutes for this meeting? any other volunteers?
KevIsode are fairly kind people, I'll do it tomorrow morning.
KevUnless someone else has a burning desire to get involved!
stpeter:)
stpeterI might find time to do it this evening (Mountain Time)
stpeterbut not before then
stpeterbrb
Fritzystpeter: thanks!
Kevstpeter: If you want to beat me to it, feel free.
Tobiask..would be handy if one of those *admin folk* would add this to the topic line: http://logs.xmpp.org/council
MattJset the topic toXMPP Council Room | http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Radar | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council
MattJIt's not happy with that... the URLs it directs to are wrong
Tobiasworks for me
KevNot for me.
Tobiashttp://logs.xmpp.org/100714/ <-- this is wrong indeed :)
KevYou end up trying http://logs.xmpp.org/100920/council/council/council/council/council/council/
KevBefore deciding that no matter how many times you press it, it won't work.
stpeterheh
TobiasKev: what did you do to get that?
MattJI'll probably look at that, the person who wrote the code originally has gone AWOL :)
KevClicked today's tade, then clicked council
Kevthen clicked council
Kevthen clicked council
Kevetc.
ralphmFOSDEM this year marks a preference for 'encompassing topics'
ralphmshall I suggest related, open protocols as a possible grander theme?
KevIsn't that always our grander theme?
TobiasKev: the link seems to have to have a / at the end
Tobiasmind changing that in the topic?
ralphmKev: sure, but we've always 'marketed' the room as xmpp specific
KevAh, I see.
ralphmeven though our community is clearly broader in interest
KevWell, we could do extensible social stuff.
Tobiasset the topic toXMPP Council Room | http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Radar | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/
ralphmthey might then opt to have a bigger room and hook us up with other open protocols people
ralphmwhich I think is nice
ralphm(and we do the summit, too)
KevI think our tie to open social stuff is more useful than our tie to generic open protocols.
Kevopen social protocols works.
ralphmnod
ralphmthat'd be the thing
ralphmmost of the talk on open protocols revolves around this topic anyway
KevWell, they should all be using XMPP, so sure :D
ralphmoauth, openid, discovery thingies, etc.
ralphmhaha
TobiasKev: mind adding a / to the log url at top?
ralphmapplication done
MattJset the topic toXMPP Council Room | http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Radar | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/
Tobiasthanks kev
MattJnp
stpeterwanders off to run an errand...
MattJTobias, without '/' should probably redirect
MattJI'll add that to the tracker
MattJ(prosody-modules tracker, that is)
Tobiasok :)
Tobiassince i tried that and failed pretty fast and though i should give up pretty fast too
Tobias:P
MattJ:)
ralphmhas left
TobiasMattJ: do you have admin access to the MLs?
KevI do.
MattJNo, thankfully
TobiasKev: could you tell me if there's something in xmpp-commit moderation queue?
KevPeter normally manages them, mind.
Tobiassince i pushed something to the repo and it was supposed to send a mail to there
Kevwhat's the mailing list address?
Kevxmpp-commit@xmpp.org?
KevGottit, nevermind.
Tobiask
KevNow, let's work out what the password is.
KevI don't see any pending mails.
Tobiasstrange
Tobiasi've added the mailinglist = foo stuff to the hook section of the repo config
Tobiasand enabled the post-receive hook
mlundbladhas joined
mlundbladwas there a council meeting tonight?
remkoyes
Tobiasremko: btw: did you get your prosody issues sorted out?
remkomattj is on it, as always
remkoit's related to xep-198
Tobiasah.ok
MattJremko, btw... I found no broken hashes in my contact list
MattJWell, actually I found 2... let me send that email, I'm getting like waqas :)
remkoyou found no broken hashes, but actually 2?
remkothat doesn't sound like 'no' to me :)
Tobiasmore noish :)
remkoyes, my contact list is also clean, but the latest adium beta has a bug
remkoand i suspect jabbim and jabber2jabber as well
Tobiaslatest? the one released yesterday?
remkooh darn, was there a release yesterday?
Tobiasyup
Tobias1.4b19
remkoah yes, it was a beta
remkoactually, i even tried the nightly, same problem
Tobiask
remkoand jabber2jabber uses gloox i'm told
remkoso that seems to be aligned with mattj's mail
MattJYes... Spectrum also uses gloox, and it's likely the same issue
MattJsince someone found that Spectrum contacts report as invalid also
MattJIt generates a correct hash, but doesn't add any features to the disco results when a node is included
remkojabber2jabber uses spectrum
remkoright, adium has a similar problem
remkoit hashes correctly, but doesn't update the hash if you add some features
MattJAh
remkothat's the price you pay for caching ;-)
remkobugs
remko:)
remkoanyway, i'm off, ttyl
remkohas left
MattJProsody caches it too, but it regenerates for every new feature added/removed :)
XMPP Council - 2010-09-20