XMPP Council - 2010-09-20

hiya

Evening.

how goes it?

43minutes by my watch :)

time check verified, sir!

I've actually read the protoXEPs in advance, it must be a Monday :)

:)

stpeter: I gave waqas r/o access to the repo, btw, when he asked earlier. Said he didn't need r/w yet.

ok

WFM

what's r/o?

read/only

ahh :)

Doesn't everyone have read access?

Not through ssh.

And we've not set up a public mirror yet afaik.

Kev: gitosis only manages access to the repo, right?

Yes.

Why or what were you wondering about?

since we seem to have no git savvy email post commit hook notification expert around i'm making myself one :)

Does such a thing not exist already?

it does

it just needs to be activated by someone :)

k..i wonder if that work

*works

of the Council members, I see Ralph and Remko online, with Matthew being awat

away even

I'm here too

Yep, got 15mins though.

just noting :)

Mine was a week.

Well, 4 days away.

yeah, mine was 7 workingdays

including today

but we had a colo outage over the weekend

so...

Timed dinner just right :)

heh

Just enough time for me to brb before 7.

And we're on.

Has anyone poked Remko?

I've reminded him at 14 minutes and 0 minutes.

Fair enough

I expect he'll be along, he acked the 14minute reminder.

howdy

There.

Yay :)

1) Roll call.

Sausage bap.

here

Also: all here.

<presence />

2) Agenda bashing.

woot!

None

current agenda is ok

none

3) ProtoXEP - Spim Markers and Reports: http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/spim.html

Accept as a XEP?

I had various comments to make about this, but nothing to stop us throwing it up as Experimental.

I have a lot of problems with it

oh, the evil bit

I thought we already had a spec for that

ralphm: Yes.

I'm going to vote -1 and email to the list my comments

Ok - this is substantial stuff that can't be sorted out while it's on the vine, then?

Well, sure -- let me go stream of thought

http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0076.html

heh

I'd rather we had something we could put in the minutes as a reason for rejecting it :)

I see many things wrong with this spec even at a glance

I don't like the filters extending the presence stanza

like abusing presence for pubsub

ralphm, eh?

Fritzy: fools seldom differ

?

MattJ: like example 3

this is clearly a horrible way to do things

ralphm, I don't see why... it's not abusing presence for pubsub

Those tags could be on a message stanza too

Also, I don't see how a complaint actually associates itself with what it is complaining about -- maybe I'm missing something here?

it is, it is soliciting a subscription for stuff through presence

Fritzy, the "key" attribute

OT hmph, did we not add this meeting to the calendar?

stpeter, if you didn't and I didn't then I guess not

oops

MattJ: the key is associated with the subscription to the filter -- not the stanza it is complaining about

MattJ: or am I really missing something big here?

ralphm, no, you're missing it...

ralphm, that's a normal subscription request from one user to another user

The <report> elements are to tell the recipient where to report spim to

stpeter: I'd also request notifications posted on identi.ca for council meetings. I always miss the meetings.

They are inserted by the filters as the stanza passes through

MattJ: I understand that

waqas: I'm not opposed to that. Although I'd rather I didn't have to remember it.

Fritzy, subscription to the filter?

Something for AOB.

anyway

I don't see what the complaint is for since it only contains to the key to the filter subscription.

What filter subscription?

example 3

[log URI?]

Fritzy, Read what I said to ralphm above

You and he need to read the XEP again I suspect :)

I believe we once figured out a way to discover special addresses at servers

e.g. for reaching admins and what not

ah

ok

I get that now

I think that should cover it

Fritzy, to be clear that stanza is just an example, it could also be a <message>

so you're complaining about a specific jid

Obviously if 2 *council members* don't understand this then the XEP needs clarifying :)

For what it's worth, I didn't think this was anything like as bad as you two do.

MattJ: or the xep needs to wait for a new council ;)

No, I like it... it's simple, and fits well with the other XEPs we have

MattJ: or wait, you're complaining about the stanza that is marked with a key.

Fritzy, yes, now you're getting it :)

MattJ: maybe you are right. I am still unsure about the usefulness.

sounds useful to me... if a bit noisy

For example, reports could lower entity reputation, they could automatically add to block lists, etc.

I'll agree with it being noisy, but I think you need that if you want this level of control.

Fritzy, if you read further it says to only include these tags in certain stanzas

right, I see that.

Like initial subscription requests, or messages from people not in your roster

So yes, it's "noisy", but only where it has to be

There might also be a need to optionally have a form for complaints from specific filters to make it more useful.

The alternative would be to drop per-stanza reporting, but that has issues

so you could explain what you're complaining about

or suggest an action

I think the marking bit is ok, but I'm not very sure about soliciting reports on individual stanzas

Yes, I think Dave may have suggested something like that on the list

Ok, so, cutting this short.

Are Fritzy and/or Ralph still -1?

using <presence type='subscribe'/> seems odd for this purpose...

stpeter, not you too... :)

I picked a good day to take time out to read the proposals at length, I think :)

stpeter, that is a normal subscription request from one user to another user

Kev, likewise :)

anyway I can post to the list about it

So, the proposal clearly needs clarification.

MattJ: the problem is not in the fact that it is presence, it is the fact that every stanza is littered with lists of filters that you could report a stanza to as 'spim'.

stpeter, the "filters" inject these tags so that the recipient can know where to report the stanza to

stpeter: it isn't using -- it's just marking that to show how to complain about

FWIW, my general thought was that it's an interesting start, we need something like this, and this is a solidly documented proposal.

The question is if Fritzy and Ralph are still vetoing it.

dwd, I agree

There are much less well-written protoXEPs.

dwd: true

Several are sitting in my outbox.

The details could be a lot better, but it's a step in the right direction and a solid base.

dwd: would you implement something like this?

however, I am almost always in favor of publication to get discussion going, put the spec into source control, etc.

MattJ: ?

ralphm: I'd strongly consider it (client)

ralphm, yes?

not that I have vote at the moment :)

Ok, this item is going on much too long.

I am trying to get a feel of the demand for something like this

Fritzy: Are you still -1?

ralphm: Are you still -1?

ralphm, I'd implement it

For sure

I'm no longer vetoing it for experimental, but I think it warrants some cleanup and discussion.

I suspect some of our partners may be interested. I suspect we might be too. With some evolution, obviously.

Spam filtering is something that would really interest me to implement server-side.

I'm 0

Fritzy, Oh, for sure.

We've accepted far worse protoXEPs... :)

Appeals to my past life as a labrat.

Ok, excellent.

Yay

Kev, Just *don't* mention it to David...

The XEP Editor can publish, and we'll free-for-all on the standards list.

yeah, so when will this be in M-link?

;)

dwd: Could get interesting.

4) ProtoXEP - Bidirectional Server-to-Server Connections. http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/bidi.html

Accept?

+1

+1

I object to the formatting of example 3 breaking the XML highlighter, but am in favour.

Only time has stopped me implementing this

I've already complained to one of the authors about that :)

dwd: I'm curious about idleness and disconnects

This is Fippo's write-up of my suggestion of resolving Justin's issue as raised in 2003 or something.

Definitely +1

we need to get somethign out there that solves this.

remko:?

+1

dwd: did you think about that yet?

ralphm, I believe that's unaffected. Indeed, I think it's much easier to manage idleness and 198 and things with bidi.

5) New term applications reminder.

ralphm, For a start, doing ping-checks across S2S is a PITA.

Reminded, thanks :)

ralphm, (without bidi)

Just a reminder to anyone thinking of reapplying or applying that the application period will close in a touch over a week.

ok

stpeter: Kev is *always* in 30min meeting mode.

Or ideall 20.

dwd, it's not when you have send_iq() :)

6) Date of next meeting.

Fritzy: Mondays are difficult for you - when is less difficult?

MattJ, No, because the response still comes back over a different socket.

dwd, doesn't matter... it means the one you sent on is fine

Tues-Fri any other time is less difficult

Fritzy: Any *other* time?

Implying this time is bad any day?

MattJ, Track that over a cluster...

dwd, I shall do some day :)

Monday afternoon or Tues-Fri any time.

Fritzy: UTC times, please

Later than this is a nuisance for me, and I suspect other .eu people, although I could manage an hour later ok I think.

+2 hrs than this or Tues-Fri

I'm fine with next Monday same time though

just as a tendency

:-)

I often have meetings on Monday morning

Ok.

and other catch-up

is it worth working this out before the new Council is elected?

Well, does anyone have difficulty with Tuesday, at the same time?

stpeter: my thought

stpeter: yeah, I'm fine with working this out in the next council if I'm still on

lets just finish the term with this slot

stpeter: There are enough weeks left that if 20% of Council can't make the meetings, it's probably worth sorting IMO.

(if there is a new Council considering that http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2010 is empty!)

woops

:D

haha

stpeter: My app's written, but not linked.

darn, I was hoping to be elected the Council-of-One :)

let's just do Monday next week for now

same time same bat-channel

Ok.

ok

Any other business?

stpeter: you're running?

Calendaring and microblogs from waqas.

yay

oh

application for fosdem

k.

So, Matt - are you still (generally) doing the calendar entries?

we want the full shebang again?

ralphm: I was going to if no one else did, that way I could dispense with all this democratic-process nonsense :)

ralphm: Let's do the other first.

Kev: ok

Kev, I was, then stpeter was... that got me out of the habit :)

I can start reminding myself again

Ok.

Who wants to announce on identi.ca?

wait what?

Is there an XSF account?

stpeter is busy enough that we should ban him from trivial things like editing calendars

Do we want to do this?

if it's in the calendar, people will tend to remember it

There is an XSF account

Kev: there is

I believe there is an XSF account on identi.ca

do what?

Announce meetings on identi.ca - it was waqas's suggestion earlier.

ah

sure

+1

I'm happy to delay such changes to process until the new Council take over.

attendance goes up if we announce it 15 minutes before the meeting

xmpp uris!

Kev: nah

But we can start doing it now

who wants to do it?

Kev: you!

I find myself not paying attention to identi.ca anymore :(

I guess the Chair can do it, but he's likely to forget.

How about... I take it on, but I'll write a bot

stpeter: I've disabled the XMPP bot now, too distracting.

MattJ: haha

+1 to bot

MattJ: perfect, ta.

Ok.

FOSDEM:

Ralph :)

right

Your 2 minutes start now.

MattJ: poke me if you need the password for the XSF account

it's that time of year again to apply for a devroom and a booth

stpeter, I think I know it, thanks

at FOSDEM

k

5/6 feb 2011

ralphm: I'm inclined to say we want the status quo.

ok

devroom was overflowing last year.

yeah that was fun

Did I do the application this year?

Heh

I forgot

I can do it this time, again

yes you did

at least, I didn't :)

:-)

I think this is probably Board, rather than Council, mind.

ralphm, you could always ask the assistance of the communications team if you need it :)

Board meeting on Tuesday of this week

we could discuss there

dwd: a little late, just had to add an A record, but here are the logs :P http://logs.xmpp.org/muc_log/muc.xmpp.org/council/100920/

Kev: nah, it has always been done by me, basically

xmpp:xsf@muc.xmpp.org?join

it's in the calendar, too

with no particular strong binding to the xsf

Can bidi be extended to include dwd's multi-domain per s2s connection with signatures?

XMPP Council Room | http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Radar | http://logs.xmpp.org/muc_log/muc.xmpp.org/council/

ralphm: right

although we always went as such

ralphm: and I'm fine with that!

XMPP Council Room | http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Radaras

Tobias, sensible URLs for the logs? You deserve a bonus :)

Tobias, I couldn't get that working

MattJ: i didn't do nothing :)

just had the record added :D

just more of a reminder, and I'm wondering if we plan to do a summit again

ralphm: Well, if we get a room, I'm happy.

MattJ: config and all was already there

We're doing a summit if we can get somewhere with windows, I think

I'd hope we'd do a summit again, although that needs (probably Board) volunteers to arrange.

MattJ: +1

Right, windows would be nice. Internets even nicer.

We've been underground far too long :)

I've heard that I can get a free meeting room at a Cisco location near the airport (not in the center)

stpeter: I think that's worth strongly considering.

but I need to ask and get that organized

to see if it's doable

Could someone ask Board to discuss this tomorrow, please?

yes

MattJ: but i guess it would be nice to eliminate the the mud_log/muc.xmpp.org parts..it blows the whole thing up and there aren't any other muc components running

Ta.

Tobias, +1

Board meetings are open, BTW

I think we're out of agenda items then, unless there's AOAOB.

I'm done

stpeter: I'll be trying to remember to attend.

I'll knock out the minutes tomorrow morning, probably.

Ok, we're done then

Thanks all.

Thanks

hooray

Kev/stpeter: has there been any progress made on multi-domain and single cert + signatures per s2s connection?

thanks

Kev: added to http://typewith.me/EyJg4G3XSr

oh, fosdem also requests ideas for main track speakers

stpeter: ta.

aka: the gtalk problem

not something I've done, but if anyone wants to speak...

Fritzy: see http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barnes-xmpp-dna-00

stpeter: thanks

Fritzy: there is also http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xmpp-dna-00 (expired), but the doc from Richard Barnes incorporates discussion at the meeting in Maastricht in late July

cool

ralphm, I'd likely forget to take my coat off ;)

Kev: will you have time to write up minutes for this meeting? any other volunteers?

Isode are fairly kind people, I'll do it tomorrow morning.

Unless someone else has a burning desire to get involved!

:)

I might find time to do it this evening (Mountain Time)

but not before then

brb

stpeter: thanks!

stpeter: If you want to beat me to it, feel free.

k..would be handy if one of those *admin folk* would add this to the topic line: http://logs.xmpp.org/council

XMPP Council Room | http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Radar | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council

It's not happy with that... the URLs it directs to are wrong

works for me

Not for me.

http://logs.xmpp.org/100714/ <-- this is wrong indeed :)

You end up trying http://logs.xmpp.org/100920/council/council/council/council/council/council/

Before deciding that no matter how many times you press it, it won't work.

heh

Kev: what did you do to get that?

I'll probably look at that, the person who wrote the code originally has gone AWOL :)

Clicked today's tade, then clicked council

then clicked council

then clicked council

etc.

FOSDEM this year marks a preference for 'encompassing topics'

shall I suggest related, open protocols as a possible grander theme?

Isn't that always our grander theme?

Kev: the link seems to have to have a / at the end

mind changing that in the topic?

Kev: sure, but we've always 'marketed' the room as xmpp specific

Ah, I see.

even though our community is clearly broader in interest

Well, we could do extensible social stuff.

XMPP Council Room | http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Radar | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/

they might then opt to have a bigger room and hook us up with other open protocols people

which I think is nice

(and we do the summit, too)

I think our tie to open social stuff is more useful than our tie to generic open protocols.

open social protocols works.

nod

that'd be the thing

most of the talk on open protocols revolves around this topic anyway

Well, they should all be using XMPP, so sure :D

oauth, openid, discovery thingies, etc.

haha

Kev: mind adding a / to the log url at top?

application done

XMPP Council Room | http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Radar | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/

thanks kev

np

Tobias, without '/' should probably redirect

I'll add that to the tracker

(prosody-modules tracker, that is)

ok :)

since i tried that and failed pretty fast and though i should give up pretty fast too

:P

:)

MattJ: do you have admin access to the MLs?

I do.

No, thankfully

Kev: could you tell me if there's something in xmpp-commit moderation queue?

Peter normally manages them, mind.

since i pushed something to the repo and it was supposed to send a mail to there

what's the mailing list address?

xmpp-commit@xmpp.org?

Gottit, nevermind.

k

Now, let's work out what the password is.

I don't see any pending mails.

strange

i've added the mailinglist = foo stuff to the hook section of the repo config

and enabled the post-receive hook

was there a council meeting tonight?

yes

remko: btw: did you get your prosody issues sorted out?

mattj is on it, as always

it's related to xep-198

ah.ok

remko, btw... I found no broken hashes in my contact list

Well, actually I found 2... let me send that email, I'm getting like waqas :)

you found no broken hashes, but actually 2?

that doesn't sound like 'no' to me :)

more noish :)

yes, my contact list is also clean, but the latest adium beta has a bug

and i suspect jabbim and jabber2jabber as well

latest? the one released yesterday?

oh darn, was there a release yesterday?

yup

1.4b19

ah yes, it was a beta

actually, i even tried the nightly, same problem

k

and jabber2jabber uses gloox i'm told

so that seems to be aligned with mattj's mail

Yes... Spectrum also uses gloox, and it's likely the same issue

since someone found that Spectrum contacts report as invalid also

It generates a correct hash, but doesn't add any features to the disco results when a node is included

jabber2jabber uses spectrum

right, adium has a similar problem

it hashes correctly, but doesn't update the hash if you add some features

Ah

that's the price you pay for caching ;-)

bugs

:)

anyway, i'm off, ttyl

Prosody caches it too, but it regenerates for every new feature added/removed :)

Heh