stpeterI told linuxwolf about the address for this room, I think he was still going to the old one :)
KevI checked with Ralph earlier that he'd be here, and Fritzy confirmed on-list, so I think we'll be good to go.
stpeterrock'n'roll
linuxwolfat least this week (-:
KevYes, I'm happy with Wednesdays in general, Tuesday was just a little preferable.
linuxwolfyeah, it's also preferred around my office for sprint kick-offs
linuxwolfand since I must be at one, and should be all four…yeah, it's a long long day (-:
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KevOne to go.
stpeterah, I see a left-handed emoticon, linuxwolf must be here ;-)
linuxwolfd-:
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stpeterSwift shows icons as primary and names as secondary
MattJPresent
ralphm(-8
KevWhere? Gimme.
Fritzyyay for presents!
MattJYou'll have to wait :)
stpeterpours some tea and starts up some Bach
Fritzyoh, good idea
MattJI wish I'd recorded stpeter at the 2008 Brussels summit saying "Presence for everyone"
stpeterhaha, did I say that?
FritzyI thought that was dwd.
MattJYou did
linuxwolfheh
MattJYou wrote it on the board too, presents for bots and for components, and for servers :)
KevUse your powers only for good, linuxwolf.
FritzyMattJ: that was Cridland.
FritzyI was there.
Kevhas left
KevOk, the clock turns 4.
MattJI've never confused stpeter with dwd before :)
linuxwolfok, focus
stpeter:)
KevWelcome Council of '10-'11.
Fritzyhaha, ok. Well, maybe Peter was in on it too. :)
MattJWelcome Kev
KevAgendaness:
Kev1) Roll call
KevAll here.
Kev2) Agenda bashing.
KevAny?
KevActually.
KevThat should be 3)
Kev2) Selecting a chair.
stpeterdon't we start at zero? :P
FritzyDo you like being chair, Kev?
ralphm0. Hello!
linuxwolf+1 for Kev
ralphm+1
FritzyDoes anyone else want a shot?
KevFritzy: I like 30minute meetings, and I don't mind doing it, so the two go quite well.
linuxwolfno thanks, I run enough meetings (-:
MattJIf Kev's happy for chair, I'm +1
Fritzy+1 for Kev
KevTa.
MattJUnanimous, congratulations Kev :)
Kev3) Agenda bashing?
MattJfor taking the job nobody else wants
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MattJNone here
KevKurt wants me to mention 258, so I'll do that later.
Kev4) Council habits and other items of clothing.
stpeterlaughs
FritzyA pun.
linuxwolfheh
KevA reminder to those who were here last year, and a re-introduction for Matt.
KevLargely these are in place so I can have my hating-meetings-going-over-30-minutes streak satisfied.
Kev* It's nice for people to turn up to meetings, or let me know if you're not
Kev* I don't think anyone has a problem with voting on-list instead of in-MUC.
Kev* We have voting periods these days, instead of chasing Council members for months to read the specs, so if you've not objected within a fortnight of a meeting with a motion to Experimental, you'll be assumed to not have objected, and if you don't vote within a fortnight of a meeting with a vote, you'll be DNV, and marked as such (and your vote is counted as +-0.
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KevI think that's largely it, anyone else?
ralphmfortunately all the /council pages are MIAA
ralphm-A
stpeterand do subscribe to http://xmpp.org/calendar/xsf-council.ics
MattJ+un?
Kevralphm: Someone on commteam should be chased.
stpeterwe have http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/the-xsf-council/
KevI need the redirect list to be given to me so I can make all the old URLs work.
stpeterso that might need to be updated
KevMattJ: hmm?
stpeterKev: indeed
stpeter^ unfortunately, not fortunately
MattJKev, nothing, ralphm said "fortunately" - it was a sarcasm or typo I think, all the same to me :)
KevAh.
KevRight.
ralphmstpeter: I mean all of the old pages. Yes, I misplaced my sarcasmicon
Kev5) Inviting authors.
ralphmgood idea
KevYes, so, there was a proposal at the end of last term that authors of XEPs being considered for advancement, or protoXEPs for acceptance, should be invited to the relevant meetings.
FritzyYeah, I like that.
KevI think this is broadly a good idea.
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MattJ+1
MattJWhose job is it? :)
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KevWe started doing this last year, and the authors were largely either people who attend anyway, or replied saying 'sorry, can't make it', but I'm happy to start trying again.
KevMattJ: I'm delighted if someone else wants to, otherwise I'll assume it's mine.
stpeterit might also help to forward the agenda to standards@
linuxwolf+1
KevRight, I was going to make agendas point 6
KevLet's do that now :)
stpeterif an author follows the list or knows that their spec is up for discussion, they might join the meeting
Kev6) Agendas
MattJSince the council list isn't open to subscribers (afaik) that would make sense
stpetercouncil is open to subscribers
KevLast year I got into the habit of sending agendas out on Monday morning on the day of a meeting, by mail to council@.
stpeterbut few subscribe
KevI've done the agenda by website in the past and consider it a nuisance, but we can go back to doing that if people want.
Fritzyemail is fine with me
bearstpeter - after your meeting can I ask if/how I can make changes to the calendar
MattJI don't mind either way as long as I can read it :)
KevSo which bits of agendaness would people like changed?
KevSending it to standards@ is fine by me, I do that with the minutes anyway.
Fritzyemail to standards or council is fine with me.
Fritzystandards might be better for transparency
KevNo-one's complained about the agenda going out on the morning of the meeting, does this bother anyone?
MattJThe only issue I have with agendas is that sometimes I don't know well enough in advance what's to be on them :)
MattJHa
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stpeterbear: sure thing, just edit the relevant events.xml file (they are sprinkled thoughout the repository), check in your changes, and run calgen.py on athena at /home/xsf/xmpp/
KevFritzy: Well, it's transparent if it's on council@, as that's archived and public subscribable, but I don't mind forwarding to standards@ for general interest.
linuxwolfsorry guys…something odd is happening with my server today
MattJIn general it's not an issue, and I appreciate it's hard to keep on top of
Kevlinuxwolf: Can't trust those server guys.
MattJDefinitely not
beari'll have to get with the infra team later to be added to git list
KevThe reason it got to Mondays was that Peter started doing Radar to make my life easier, then Peter got busy and that got updated later, so I sent agendas later.
KevNow that I'm sorting out agendas based on the XEP Editor emails Peter sends out again, I can make them earlier.
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stpeterhttp://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Radar is handy
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ralphmwell, if we are moving to Wednesday, monday should be fine
stpeterwhen it's updated :)
KevSo I'll endeavour to continue sending them out Monday morning, for the meetings later in the week.
stpeterKev: WFM!
Chris Newtonlinuxwolf, I never trust those server guys either.
MattJstpeter, when it's up to date radar is handy :)
Kevbear: Talk to me later. I'll sort it out.
MattJKev, thanks - Monday works
Fritzysudo corrupts, root corrupts absolutely.
linuxwolfheh
stpeterMattJ: yeah, whn
Fritzywhy do you keep talking to bear? I don't see him saying *anything*
KevOk, so, agenda-wise, I'll send to standards@ as well, send it earlier relatively, and copy in XEP authors.
stpetermost excellent
Fritzygravy
MattJAll good
Kev7) XEP-0258 (labels)
KevKurt'd like me to give a heads up that he's approaching ready with this, is going to tidy it up, encourage implementors to update to the latest, and then will be requesting a last call.
linuxwolf/nod
ralphmyay
MattJExcellent
linuxwolfhopefully this incarnation sticks
KevI had a discussion with him about reverting to the :0 version, with flat catalogues etc because the current version is more complex, but he persuaded me that it needs a hierachy.
MattJI have an implementation I can bring up to date then
Fritzyyou do?
dwdlinuxwolf, I think so. Given Kurt maintains ours, Kev maintains Swift's, and I maintain Gajim's, we can manage to bring those up to date.
MattJFritzy, I do, mostly :)
Kev8) Date of next meeting.
linuxwolfplus, it helps that Kurt works directly with agencies that cannot be named
dwdFritzy, Interop tested no less.
KevI'll propose Wednesdays (starting in 8 days) at 4pm UK, and see how much Matt dislikes it.
MattJYou need to disambiguate "Matt" now Kev :)
dwdlinuxwolf, Including one that has called me a subversive. :-)
linuxwolfyou'll need to clarify which "Matt" (-:
KevBother.
stpeterheh
KevMW.
MattJI'll survive for now
MattJ(at 4pm)
linuxwolfdwd: I thought you liked being called a subversive? (-:
ralphmWFM
linuxwolf+1
Fritzy+1 for Wednesdays 1600UTC
KevGreat, so next meeting'll be a week tomorrow.
MattJPerfect
KevWho wants responsibility for updating the calendar?
MattJI can do it
KevExcellent.
KevOh, and minute writing. I'm happy to continue doing that, but if someone else is dying to do so I don't mind.
stpeterthanks, Matthew!
KevNo, I didn't think so :)
MattJHeh
stpeter:P
Kev9) Any other business?
Fritzynossir
MattJralphm, what's FOSDEM status?
stpeterKev: we might want to figure out better ways of keeping the Radar page up to date
linuxwolfwhen's the IETF meeting? Next week?
Kevlinuxwolf: Yes.
stpeterlinuxwolf: yes, but no XMPP WG session
dwdAlso, is it worth raising my interop suggestion?
linuxwolfno, but I'm paying attention to kitten and hybi
stpeterhowever, I'll be presenting about internationalized JIDs at the PRECIS WG session
beari need to remember hybi wg session next week
Kevstpeter: Do you have something to suggest? Finding a volunteer to track council@ and update it sound s a good idea.
linuxwolfbear: make sure you have your flamesuit
ralphmwe have a room
ralphmon saturday
Fritzywonders why he can't see bear's messages.
stpeterKev: something to discuss
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KevI'd suggest we mail members@ asking for a volunteer to track council@ and stardards@ and update it accordingly.
ralphmI'll draft a Call for presentations soonish
MattJFritzy, bear: We'll debug after the meeting - since all 3 servers involved are Prosody :)
stpeteroh, and I've sourced a meeting room in Brussels for the Summit -- it's not in the center of town, but it's free and it should have good Internet connectivity since it's at a Cisco location
bearok
Kevstpeter: Excellent.
Kevralphm: Excellent, thanks.
Kev(And thanks for stpeter too, didn't mean to exclude)
KevSo dwd's Plan For World Domination^w^w^w^wInterop suggestion.
MattJstpeter, wonderful, thanks
KevAnything worth discussing about that?
MattJI think we just need to drum up support
KevOther than that I'm strongly in favour of just about everything he suggested.
stpeterabout interop? I'm behind on the thread I started (as usual!)
MattJI see tasks for iteam and commteam
Kevstpeter: Summary:
bearmy personal suggestion would be to just start doing it, make it visible and start letting people find their own way in
KevFirst week in December, do it online, XSF iteam set up DNS and certs, have a mailing list for people, and try and prove basic interop.
Kevbear: It's a fine suggestion, but I think it's worth getting the message out strongly and soon that XMPP interop works just fine.
KevSo I think it's worth putting the effort in to make an interop test work in the first instance.
bearkev, completely agree - I was just saying that over planning may hinder uptake
MattJAgreed, a week of focus would be worth it
linuxwolfbut we need some planning
bearI'm all for getting the interop news front and center
linuxwolfOscon was too much anarchy
dwdOh, and to repeat here, Isode providing CA software is confirmed, if wanted.
bearoscon was also the first time we did interop of any serious nature
Kevdwd: with one of my non-Isode hats on, that sounds good to the iteam :)
bearso the first week of december's interop will be just as messy until CA and DNS issues are sorted out
stpeterbear: we did interop for Jingle at FOSDEM a few years ago and that went well, plus lots of basic interop (especially s2s) at the very first Summit
bearoscon was hampered by dns, network and not having server folks on hand (I think)
KevI'm happy for the iteam to take on DNS and CA stuffs and make sure that works.
dwdThe main problem with the FOSDEM Jingle Thingle was lack of published results.
KevIf we get a list of the servers that'll be taking part.
KevSo I suggest that Board discuss this tomorrow, that they agree that it's a jolly good idea, and that the wheels get set in motion.
bearI have the domain xmpptest.com if you think it would be useful - I can move it to the xsf
stpeterOT: I love it when fellow Isoders disagree within the XMPP WG -- such a free-spirited corporate culture! ;-)
KevWe've just hit 30mins, so I'm reached meeting-discomfort :)
stpeterheh
Kevs/I'm/I've/
linuxwolfhehe
stpeterok we can discuss the interop stuff in more detail next meeting, right?
Fritzys/I've/We've/g
KevWhich reminds me that I need to submit http://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/xep-correct.html sometime.
KevYes, and bear's promised to get Board to agree to it tomorrow, so all is good :)
bear:)
KevRight, any other any other business?
Fritzystpeter: maybe a separate meeting for interop
stpeterI think we're done
stpeterFritzy: yes, could be
MattJNone here
KevJolly good. I'll write up minutes and send out. (I usually aim for <=24 hours).
linuxwolfI've got one agenda item for next meeting: focus for this term
Kevlinuxwolf: noted.
linuxwolfbut we can talk about it later and/or on list
stpeterlinuxwolf: see also my roadmap post
KevOk, thanks all.
linuxwolf@stpeter that's what I'm refering to (-:
MattJThanks Kev
Kevbangs the gavel.
linuxwolfadios amigos
stpeterit's great to see all this energy -- now we just need to sustain it :)
linuxwolflet's see what happens after the winter solstice (-:
MattJ:)
MattJbear, ok - do you see Fritzy's messages?
linuxwolf'course, that was the council from 4-5 years ago, too (-:
bearyes
MattJFritzy, what client are you using?
FritzySwift.
MattJbear, what client are you using?
FritzyI see them now.
bearSwift
bearI restarted swift
MattJFritzy, oh really? It just started?
bearafter setting my status
MattJhands it over to Kev and relaxes
bearI suspect swift reconnected after my laptop went to sleep and I was marked as hidden
FritzyI think it was user-error on my part.
bearor that ;)
linuxwolfheh
bearoh - so you had me on the ignore list .... hmmm.....
bear:)
FritzyMy ocular-grep was skipping your avatar.
KevHaha.
Fritzyor rather, not associating it with you.
linuxwolfok, on to my next meeting…ttyl
bearyea, still haven't figured out how to set that
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Kevbear: not through Swift yet. It'll be in 1.0.
bear*nod*
Fritzyavatars as primary in mucs are cool, but confusing
Fritzynot how my brain works, at least not without a real picture.
KevIf you're in a MUC where people use avatars, I find it much much more convenient.
KevIf people don't have avatars, less well.
KevSome abstracts work (e.g. I can associate MattJ and Peter by avatar fine), but I've not got bear's wired in yet.
stpeterI like Kev's 30-minute meeting policy
Fritzy:)
Fritzyit's a good one.
dwd[16:34:00] * Kev bangs the gavel.
dwd4 minutes over.
KevYeah, I blame whoever brought up interop as an AOB.
dwdstpeter, Incidentally, Isode people never disagree on the WG lists, because our participation in the IETF is always personal, thus we are not Isode people when we disagree. :-)
stpeterthat's true
dwdstpeter, OTOH, I have heard of some companies who have premeetings prior to IETF week to ensure all their participants toe the company line.
MattJ:D
stpeterCisco folks are legendary for disagreeing at IETF meetings