XMPP Council - 2010-11-02

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15:54:20 stpeter greetings!@
15:54:28 MattJ Greetings!
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15:54:35 MattJ Back in 6.5 minutes :)
15:54:51 stpeter I told linuxwolf about the address for this room, I think he was still going to the old one :)
15:55:33 Kev I checked with Ralph earlier that he'd be here, and Fritzy confirmed on-list, so I think we'll be good to go.
15:55:51 stpeter rock'n'roll
15:55:58 linuxwolf at least this week (-:
15:56:33 Kev Yes, I'm happy with Wednesdays in general, Tuesday was just a little preferable.
15:56:54 linuxwolf yeah, it's also preferred around my office for sprint kick-offs
15:57:21 linuxwolf and since I must be at one, and should be all four…yeah, it's a long long day (-:
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15:58:15 Kev One to go.
15:58:40 stpeter ah, I see a left-handed emoticon, linuxwolf must be here ;-)
15:58:46 linuxwolf d-:
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15:59:07 stpeter Swift shows icons as primary and names as secondary
15:59:21 MattJ Present
15:59:28 ralphm (-8
15:59:30 Kev Where? Gimme.
15:59:38 Fritzy yay for presents!
15:59:39 MattJ You'll have to wait :)
15:59:46 stpeter pours some tea and starts up some Bach
15:59:55 Fritzy oh, good idea
16:00:06 MattJ I wish I'd recorded stpeter at the 2008 Brussels summit saying "Presence for everyone"
16:00:16 stpeter haha, did I say that?
16:00:22 Fritzy I thought that was dwd.
16:00:24 MattJ You did
16:00:37 linuxwolf heh
16:00:52 MattJ You wrote it on the board too, presents for bots and for components, and for servers :)
16:01:01 Kev Use your powers only for good, linuxwolf.
16:01:09 Fritzy MattJ: that was Cridland.
16:01:10 Fritzy I was there.
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16:01:28 Kev Ok, the clock turns 4.
16:01:30 MattJ I've never confused stpeter with dwd before :)
16:01:31 linuxwolf ok, focus
16:01:36 stpeter :)
16:01:41 Kev Welcome Council of '10-'11.
16:01:46 Fritzy haha, ok. Well, maybe Peter was in on it too. :)
16:01:56 MattJ Welcome Kev
16:01:58 Kev Agendaness:
16:02:01 Kev 1) Roll call
16:02:04 Kev All here.
16:02:09 Kev 2) Agenda bashing.
16:02:10 Kev Any?
16:02:13 Kev Actually.
16:02:15 Kev That should be 3)
16:02:18 Kev 2) Selecting a chair.
16:02:32 stpeter don't we start at zero? :P
16:02:37 Fritzy Do you like being chair, Kev?
16:02:38 ralphm 0. Hello!
16:02:45 linuxwolf +1 for Kev
16:02:48 ralphm +1
16:02:49 Fritzy Does anyone else want a shot?
16:03:01 Kev Fritzy: I like 30minute meetings, and I don't mind doing it, so the two go quite well.
16:03:04 linuxwolf no thanks, I run enough meetings (-:
16:03:08 MattJ If Kev's happy for chair, I'm +1
16:03:12 Fritzy +1 for Kev
16:03:21 Kev Ta.
16:03:22 MattJ Unanimous, congratulations Kev :)
16:03:29 Kev 3) Agenda bashing?
16:03:32 MattJ for taking the job nobody else wants
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16:03:42 MattJ None here
16:03:58 Kev Kurt wants me to mention 258, so I'll do that later.
16:04:26 Kev 4) Council habits and other items of clothing.
16:04:32 stpeter laughs
16:04:40 Fritzy A pun.
16:04:41 linuxwolf heh
16:04:52 Kev A reminder to those who were here last year, and a re-introduction for Matt.
16:05:19 Kev Largely these are in place so I can have my hating-meetings-going-over-30-minutes streak satisfied.
16:05:44 Kev * It's nice for people to turn up to meetings, or let me know if you're not
16:05:57 Kev * I don't think anyone has a problem with voting on-list instead of in-MUC.
16:07:09 Kev * We have voting periods these days, instead of chasing Council members for months to read the specs, so if you've not objected within a fortnight of a meeting with a motion to Experimental, you'll be assumed to not have objected, and if you don't vote within a fortnight of a meeting with a vote, you'll be DNV, and marked as such (and your vote is counted as +-0.
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16:07:46 Kev I think that's largely it, anyone else?
16:07:51 ralphm fortunately all the /council pages are MIAA
16:07:52 ralphm -A
16:08:00 stpeter and do subscribe to http://xmpp.org/calendar/xsf-council.ics
16:08:02 MattJ +un?
16:08:30 Kev ralphm: Someone on commteam should be chased.
16:08:33 stpeter we have http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/the-xsf-council/
16:08:50 Kev I need the redirect list to be given to me so I can make all the old URLs work.
16:08:54 stpeter so that might need to be updated
16:08:55 Kev MattJ: hmm?
16:08:58 stpeter Kev: indeed
16:09:19 stpeter ^ unfortunately, not fortunately
16:09:21 MattJ Kev, nothing, ralphm said "fortunately" - it was a sarcasm or typo I think, all the same to me :)
16:09:26 Kev Ah.
16:09:30 Kev Right.
16:09:38 ralphm stpeter: I mean all of the old pages. Yes, I misplaced my sarcasmicon
16:09:42 Kev 5) Inviting authors.
16:10:05 ralphm good idea
16:10:16 Kev Yes, so, there was a proposal at the end of last term that authors of XEPs being considered for advancement, or protoXEPs for acceptance, should be invited to the relevant meetings.
16:10:36 Fritzy Yeah, I like that.
16:10:38 Kev I think this is broadly a good idea.
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16:10:45 MattJ +1
16:10:56 MattJ Whose job is it? :)
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16:11:07 Kev We started doing this last year, and the authors were largely either people who attend anyway, or replied saying 'sorry, can't make it', but I'm happy to start trying again.
16:11:18 Kev MattJ: I'm delighted if someone else wants to, otherwise I'll assume it's mine.
16:11:21 stpeter it might also help to forward the agenda to standards@
16:11:28 linuxwolf +1
16:11:38 Kev Right, I was going to make agendas point 6
16:11:43 Kev Let's do that now :)
16:11:43 stpeter if an author follows the list or knows that their spec is up for discussion, they might join the meeting
16:11:47 Kev 6) Agendas
16:11:51 MattJ Since the council list isn't open to subscribers (afaik) that would make sense
16:12:14 stpeter council is open to subscribers
16:12:17 Kev Last year I got into the habit of sending agendas out on Monday morning on the day of a meeting, by mail to council@.
16:12:20 stpeter but few subscribe
16:12:43 Kev I've done the agenda by website in the past and consider it a nuisance, but we can go back to doing that if people want.
16:12:57 Fritzy email is fine with me
16:12:59 bear stpeter - after your meeting can I ask if/how I can make changes to the calendar
16:13:03 MattJ I don't mind either way as long as I can read it :)
16:13:18 Kev So which bits of agendaness would people like changed?
16:13:29 Kev Sending it to standards@ is fine by me, I do that with the minutes anyway.
16:13:58 Fritzy email to standards or council is fine with me.
16:14:09 Fritzy standards might be better for transparency
16:14:26 Kev No-one's complained about the agenda going out on the morning of the meeting, does this bother anyone?
16:14:28 MattJ The only issue I have with agendas is that sometimes I don't know well enough in advance what's to be on them :)
16:14:33 MattJ Ha
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16:14:56 stpeter bear: sure thing, just edit the relevant events.xml file (they are sprinkled thoughout the repository), check in your changes, and run calgen.py on athena at /home/xsf/xmpp/
16:14:59 Kev Fritzy: Well, it's transparent if it's on council@, as that's archived and public subscribable, but I don't mind forwarding to standards@ for general interest.
16:14:59 linuxwolf sorry guys…something odd is happening with my server today
16:15:03 MattJ In general it's not an issue, and I appreciate it's hard to keep on top of
16:15:09 Kev linuxwolf: Can't trust those server guys.
16:15:14 MattJ Definitely not
16:15:39 bear i'll have to get with the infra team later to be added to git list
16:15:40 Kev The reason it got to Mondays was that Peter started doing Radar to make my life easier, then Peter got busy and that got updated later, so I sent agendas later.
16:16:06 Kev Now that I'm sorting out agendas based on the XEP Editor emails Peter sends out again, I can make them earlier.
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16:16:19 stpeter http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Radar is handy
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16:16:31 ralphm well, if we are moving to Wednesday, monday should be fine
16:16:32 stpeter when it's updated :)
16:16:35 Kev So I'll endeavour to continue sending them out Monday morning, for the meetings later in the week.
16:16:42 stpeter Kev: WFM!
16:16:51 Chris Newton linuxwolf, I never trust those server guys either.
16:17:10 MattJ stpeter, when it's up to date radar is handy :)
16:17:14 Kev bear: Talk to me later. I'll sort it out.
16:17:20 MattJ Kev, thanks - Monday works
16:17:26 Fritzy sudo corrupts, root corrupts absolutely.
16:17:30 linuxwolf heh
16:17:30 stpeter MattJ: yeah, whn
16:17:50 Fritzy why do you keep talking to bear? I don't see him saying *anything*
16:17:51 Kev Ok, so, agenda-wise, I'll send to standards@ as well, send it earlier relatively, and copy in XEP authors.
16:18:12 stpeter most excellent
16:18:19 Fritzy gravy
16:18:31 MattJ All good
16:18:32 Kev 7) XEP-0258 (labels)
16:19:03 Kev Kurt'd like me to give a heads up that he's approaching ready with this, is going to tidy it up, encourage implementors to update to the latest, and then will be requesting a last call.
16:19:14 linuxwolf /nod
16:19:34 ralphm yay
16:19:37 MattJ Excellent
16:19:42 linuxwolf hopefully this incarnation sticks
16:19:52 Kev I had a discussion with him about reverting to the :0 version, with flat catalogues etc because the current version is more complex, but he persuaded me that it needs a hierachy.
16:19:54 MattJ I have an implementation I can bring up to date then
16:20:05 Fritzy you do?
16:20:20 dwd linuxwolf, I think so. Given Kurt maintains ours, Kev maintains Swift's, and I maintain Gajim's, we can manage to bring those up to date.
16:20:23 MattJ Fritzy, I do, mostly :)
16:20:40 Kev 8) Date of next meeting.
16:20:41 linuxwolf plus, it helps that Kurt works directly with agencies that cannot be named
16:20:41 dwd Fritzy, Interop tested no less.
16:21:01 Kev I'll propose Wednesdays (starting in 8 days) at 4pm UK, and see how much Matt dislikes it.
16:21:19 MattJ You need to disambiguate "Matt" now Kev :)
16:21:23 dwd linuxwolf, Including one that has called me a subversive. :-)
16:21:27 linuxwolf you'll need to clarify which "Matt" (-:
16:21:27 Kev Bother.
16:21:47 stpeter heh
16:21:49 Kev MW.
16:21:50 MattJ I'll survive for now
16:21:54 MattJ (at 4pm)
16:21:56 linuxwolf dwd: I thought you liked being called a subversive? (-:
16:21:59 ralphm WFM
16:22:08 linuxwolf +1
16:22:13 Fritzy +1 for Wednesdays 1600UTC
16:22:28 Kev Great, so next meeting'll be a week tomorrow.
16:22:42 MattJ Perfect
16:22:52 Kev Who wants responsibility for updating the calendar?
16:23:00 MattJ I can do it
16:23:03 Kev Excellent.
16:23:30 Kev Oh, and minute writing. I'm happy to continue doing that, but if someone else is dying to do so I don't mind.
16:23:35 stpeter thanks, Matthew!
16:23:49 Kev No, I didn't think so :)
16:23:56 MattJ Heh
16:23:56 stpeter :P
16:24:02 Kev 9) Any other business?
16:24:32 Fritzy nossir
16:24:44 MattJ ralphm, what's FOSDEM status?
16:25:02 stpeter Kev: we might want to figure out better ways of keeping the Radar page up to date
16:25:03 linuxwolf when's the IETF meeting? Next week?
16:25:15 Kev linuxwolf: Yes.
16:25:18 stpeter linuxwolf: yes, but no XMPP WG session
16:25:32 dwd Also, is it worth raising my interop suggestion?
16:25:34 linuxwolf no, but I'm paying attention to kitten and hybi
16:25:37 stpeter however, I'll be presenting about internationalized JIDs at the PRECIS WG session
16:25:53 bear i need to remember hybi wg session next week
16:25:56 Kev stpeter: Do you have something to suggest? Finding a volunteer to track council@ and update it sound s a good idea.
16:26:08 linuxwolf bear: make sure you have your flamesuit
16:26:16 ralphm we have a room
16:26:20 ralphm on saturday
16:26:22 Fritzy wonders why he can't see bear's messages.
16:26:29 stpeter Kev: something to discuss
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16:26:52 Kev I'd suggest we mail members@ asking for a volunteer to track council@ and stardards@ and update it accordingly.
16:27:00 ralphm I'll draft a Call for presentations soonish
16:27:18 MattJ Fritzy, bear: We'll debug after the meeting - since all 3 servers involved are Prosody :)
16:27:19 stpeter oh, and I've sourced a meeting room in Brussels for the Summit -- it's not in the center of town, but it's free and it should have good Internet connectivity since it's at a Cisco location
16:27:28 bear ok
16:27:31 Kev stpeter: Excellent.
16:27:35 Kev ralphm: Excellent, thanks.
16:27:45 Kev (And thanks for stpeter too, didn't mean to exclude)
16:28:00 Kev So dwd's Plan For World Domination^w^w^w^wInterop suggestion.
16:28:04 MattJ stpeter, wonderful, thanks
16:28:06 Kev Anything worth discussing about that?
16:28:24 MattJ I think we just need to drum up support
16:28:31 Kev Other than that I'm strongly in favour of just about everything he suggested.
16:28:34 stpeter about interop? I'm behind on the thread I started (as usual!)
16:28:39 MattJ I see tasks for iteam and commteam
16:28:39 Kev stpeter: Summary:
16:28:41 bear my personal suggestion would be to just start doing it, make it visible and start letting people find their own way in
16:29:12 Kev First week in December, do it online, XSF iteam set up DNS and certs, have a mailing list for people, and try and prove basic interop.
16:29:30 Kev bear: It's a fine suggestion, but I think it's worth getting the message out strongly and soon that XMPP interop works just fine.
16:29:54 Kev So I think it's worth putting the effort in to make an interop test work in the first instance.
16:29:55 bear kev, completely agree - I was just saying that over planning may hinder uptake
16:30:03 MattJ Agreed, a week of focus would be worth it
16:30:07 linuxwolf but we need some planning
16:30:12 bear I'm all for getting the interop news front and center
16:30:20 linuxwolf Oscon was too much anarchy
16:30:28 dwd Oh, and to repeat here, Isode providing CA software is confirmed, if wanted.
16:30:34 bear oscon was also the first time we did interop of any serious nature
16:31:03 Kev dwd: with one of my non-Isode hats on, that sounds good to the iteam :)
16:31:04 bear so the first week of december's interop will be just as messy until CA and DNS issues are sorted out
16:31:06 stpeter bear: we did interop for Jingle at FOSDEM a few years ago and that went well, plus lots of basic interop (especially s2s) at the very first Summit
16:31:37 bear oscon was hampered by dns, network and not having server folks on hand (I think)
16:31:37 Kev I'm happy for the iteam to take on DNS and CA stuffs and make sure that works.
16:32:11 dwd The main problem with the FOSDEM Jingle Thingle was lack of published results.
16:32:11 Kev If we get a list of the servers that'll be taking part.
16:32:45 Kev So I suggest that Board discuss this tomorrow, that they agree that it's a jolly good idea, and that the wheels get set in motion.
16:32:48 bear I have the domain xmpptest.com if you think it would be useful - I can move it to the xsf
16:32:58 stpeter OT: I love it when fellow Isoders disagree within the XMPP WG -- such a free-spirited corporate culture! ;-)
16:33:02 Kev We've just hit 30mins, so I'm reached meeting-discomfort :)
16:33:06 stpeter heh
16:33:15 Kev s/I'm/I've/
16:33:19 linuxwolf hehe
16:33:20 stpeter ok we can discuss the interop stuff in more detail next meeting, right?
16:33:26 Fritzy s/I've/We've/g
16:33:34 Kev Which reminds me that I need to submit http://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/xep-correct.html sometime.
16:33:50 Kev Yes, and bear's promised to get Board to agree to it tomorrow, so all is good :)
16:33:55 bear :)
16:33:57 Kev Right, any other any other business?
16:33:57 Fritzy stpeter: maybe a separate meeting for interop
16:34:14 stpeter I think we're done
16:34:22 stpeter Fritzy: yes, could be
16:34:26 MattJ None here
16:34:35 Kev Jolly good. I'll write up minutes and send out. (I usually aim for <=24 hours).
16:34:37 linuxwolf I've got one agenda item for next meeting: focus for this term
16:34:44 Kev linuxwolf: noted.
16:34:46 linuxwolf but we can talk about it later and/or on list
16:34:50 stpeter linuxwolf: see also my roadmap post
16:35:01 Kev Ok, thanks all.
16:35:06 linuxwolf @stpeter that's what I'm refering to (-:
16:35:11 MattJ Thanks Kev
16:35:12 Kev bangs the gavel.
16:35:36 linuxwolf adios amigos
16:35:40 stpeter it's great to see all this energy -- now we just need to sustain it :)
16:36:05 linuxwolf let's see what happens after the winter solstice (-:
16:36:29 MattJ :)
16:36:38 MattJ bear, ok - do you see Fritzy's messages?
16:36:44 linuxwolf 'course, that was the council from 4-5 years ago, too (-:
16:36:44 bear yes
16:36:50 MattJ Fritzy, what client are you using?
16:36:53 Fritzy Swift.
16:36:55 MattJ bear, what client are you using?
16:36:56 Fritzy I see them now.
16:36:58 bear Swift
16:37:04 bear I restarted swift
16:37:06 MattJ Fritzy, oh really? It just started?
16:37:09 bear after setting my status
16:37:26 MattJ hands it over to Kev and relaxes
16:37:30 bear I suspect swift reconnected after my laptop went to sleep and I was marked as hidden
16:37:43 Fritzy I think it was user-error on my part.
16:37:49 bear or that ;)
16:37:59 linuxwolf heh
16:38:07 bear oh - so you had me on the ignore list .... hmmm.....
16:38:09 bear :)
16:38:12 Fritzy My ocular-grep was skipping your avatar.
16:38:17 Kev Haha.
16:38:21 Fritzy or rather, not associating it with you.
16:38:22 linuxwolf ok, on to my next meeting…ttyl
16:38:23 bear yea, still haven't figured out how to set that
16:38:25 linuxwolf has left
16:38:39 Kev bear: not through Swift yet. It'll be in 1.0.
16:38:47 bear *nod*
16:38:56 Fritzy avatars as primary in mucs are cool, but confusing
16:39:13 Fritzy not how my brain works, at least not without a real picture.
16:39:13 Kev If you're in a MUC where people use avatars, I find it much much more convenient.
16:39:33 Kev If people don't have avatars, less well.
16:39:57 Kev Some abstracts work (e.g. I can associate MattJ and Peter by avatar fine), but I've not got bear's wired in yet.
16:40:01 stpeter I like Kev's 30-minute meeting policy
16:40:11 Fritzy :)
16:40:14 Fritzy it's a good one.
16:41:36 dwd [16:34:00] * Kev bangs the gavel.
16:41:40 dwd 4 minutes over.
16:42:04 Kev Yeah, I blame whoever brought up interop as an AOB.
16:43:35 dwd stpeter, Incidentally, Isode people never disagree on the WG lists, because our participation in the IETF is always personal, thus we are not Isode people when we disagree. :-)
16:43:44 stpeter that's true
16:44:16 dwd stpeter, OTOH, I have heard of some companies who have premeetings prior to IETF week to ensure all their participants toe the company line.
16:44:22 MattJ :D
16:46:06 stpeter Cisco folks are legendary for disagreeing at IETF meetings
16:46:21 dwd stpeter, Oh, sure. I wasn't meaning Cisco.
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