XMPP Council - 2010-11-02


  1. stpeter

    greetings!@

  2. MattJ

    Greetings!

  3. MattJ

    Back in 6.5 minutes :)

  4. stpeter

    I told linuxwolf about the address for this room, I think he was still going to the old one :)

  5. Kev

    I checked with Ralph earlier that he'd be here, and Fritzy confirmed on-list, so I think we'll be good to go.

  6. stpeter

    rock'n'roll

  7. linuxwolf

    at least this week (-:

  8. Kev

    Yes, I'm happy with Wednesdays in general, Tuesday was just a little preferable.

  9. linuxwolf

    yeah, it's also preferred around my office for sprint kick-offs

  10. linuxwolf

    and since I must be at one, and should be all four…yeah, it's a long long day (-:

  11. Kev

    One to go.

  12. stpeter

    ah, I see a left-handed emoticon, linuxwolf must be here ;-)

  13. linuxwolf

    d-:

  14. stpeter

    Swift shows icons as primary and names as secondary

  15. MattJ

    Present

  16. ralphm

    (-8

  17. Kev

    Where? Gimme.

  18. Fritzy

    yay for presents!

  19. MattJ

    You'll have to wait :)

  20. stpeter pours some tea and starts up some Bach

  21. Fritzy

    oh, good idea

  22. MattJ

    I wish I'd recorded stpeter at the 2008 Brussels summit saying "Presence for everyone"

  23. stpeter

    haha, did I say that?

  24. Fritzy

    I thought that was dwd.

  25. MattJ

    You did

  26. linuxwolf

    heh

  27. MattJ

    You wrote it on the board too, presents for bots and for components, and for servers :)

  28. Kev

    Use your powers only for good, linuxwolf.

  29. Fritzy

    MattJ: that was Cridland.

  30. Fritzy

    I was there.

  31. Kev

    Ok, the clock turns 4.

  32. MattJ

    I've never confused stpeter with dwd before :)

  33. linuxwolf

    ok, focus

  34. stpeter

    :)

  35. Kev

    Welcome Council of '10-'11.

  36. Fritzy

    haha, ok. Well, maybe Peter was in on it too. :)

  37. MattJ

    Welcome Kev

  38. Kev

    Agendaness:

  39. Kev

    1) Roll call

  40. Kev

    All here.

  41. Kev

    2) Agenda bashing.

  42. Kev

    Any?

  43. Kev

    Actually.

  44. Kev

    That should be 3)

  45. Kev

    2) Selecting a chair.

  46. stpeter

    don't we start at zero? :P

  47. Fritzy

    Do you like being chair, Kev?

  48. ralphm

    0. Hello!

  49. linuxwolf

    +1 for Kev

  50. ralphm

    +1

  51. Fritzy

    Does anyone else want a shot?

  52. Kev

    Fritzy: I like 30minute meetings, and I don't mind doing it, so the two go quite well.

  53. linuxwolf

    no thanks, I run enough meetings (-:

  54. MattJ

    If Kev's happy for chair, I'm +1

  55. Fritzy

    +1 for Kev

  56. Kev

    Ta.

  57. MattJ

    Unanimous, congratulations Kev :)

  58. Kev

    3) Agenda bashing?

  59. MattJ

    for taking the job nobody else wants

  60. MattJ

    None here

  61. Kev

    Kurt wants me to mention 258, so I'll do that later.

  62. Kev

    4) Council habits and other items of clothing.

  63. stpeter laughs

  64. Fritzy

    A pun.

  65. linuxwolf

    heh

  66. Kev

    A reminder to those who were here last year, and a re-introduction for Matt.

  67. Kev

    Largely these are in place so I can have my hating-meetings-going-over-30-minutes streak satisfied.

  68. Kev

    * It's nice for people to turn up to meetings, or let me know if you're not

  69. Kev

    * I don't think anyone has a problem with voting on-list instead of in-MUC.

  70. Kev

    * We have voting periods these days, instead of chasing Council members for months to read the specs, so if you've not objected within a fortnight of a meeting with a motion to Experimental, you'll be assumed to not have objected, and if you don't vote within a fortnight of a meeting with a vote, you'll be DNV, and marked as such (and your vote is counted as +-0.

  71. Kev

    I think that's largely it, anyone else?

  72. ralphm

    fortunately all the /council pages are MIAA

  73. ralphm

    -A

  74. stpeter

    and do subscribe to http://xmpp.org/calendar/xsf-council.ics

  75. MattJ

    +un?

  76. Kev

    ralphm: Someone on commteam should be chased.

  77. stpeter

    we have http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/the-xsf-council/

  78. Kev

    I need the redirect list to be given to me so I can make all the old URLs work.

  79. stpeter

    so that might need to be updated

  80. Kev

    MattJ: hmm?

  81. stpeter

    Kev: indeed

  82. stpeter

    ^ unfortunately, not fortunately

  83. MattJ

    Kev, nothing, ralphm said "fortunately" - it was a sarcasm or typo I think, all the same to me :)

  84. Kev

    Ah.

  85. Kev

    Right.

  86. ralphm

    stpeter: I mean all of the old pages. Yes, I misplaced my sarcasmicon

  87. Kev

    5) Inviting authors.

  88. ralphm

    good idea

  89. Kev

    Yes, so, there was a proposal at the end of last term that authors of XEPs being considered for advancement, or protoXEPs for acceptance, should be invited to the relevant meetings.

  90. Fritzy

    Yeah, I like that.

  91. Kev

    I think this is broadly a good idea.

  92. MattJ

    +1

  93. MattJ

    Whose job is it? :)

  94. Kev

    We started doing this last year, and the authors were largely either people who attend anyway, or replied saying 'sorry, can't make it', but I'm happy to start trying again.

  95. Kev

    MattJ: I'm delighted if someone else wants to, otherwise I'll assume it's mine.

  96. stpeter

    it might also help to forward the agenda to standards@

  97. linuxwolf

    +1

  98. Kev

    Right, I was going to make agendas point 6

  99. Kev

    Let's do that now :)

  100. stpeter

    if an author follows the list or knows that their spec is up for discussion, they might join the meeting

  101. Kev

    6) Agendas

  102. MattJ

    Since the council list isn't open to subscribers (afaik) that would make sense

  103. stpeter

    council is open to subscribers

  104. Kev

    Last year I got into the habit of sending agendas out on Monday morning on the day of a meeting, by mail to council@.

  105. stpeter

    but few subscribe

  106. Kev

    I've done the agenda by website in the past and consider it a nuisance, but we can go back to doing that if people want.

  107. Fritzy

    email is fine with me

  108. bear

    stpeter - after your meeting can I ask if/how I can make changes to the calendar

  109. MattJ

    I don't mind either way as long as I can read it :)

  110. Kev

    So which bits of agendaness would people like changed?

  111. Kev

    Sending it to standards@ is fine by me, I do that with the minutes anyway.

  112. Fritzy

    email to standards or council is fine with me.

  113. Fritzy

    standards might be better for transparency

  114. Kev

    No-one's complained about the agenda going out on the morning of the meeting, does this bother anyone?

  115. MattJ

    The only issue I have with agendas is that sometimes I don't know well enough in advance what's to be on them :)

  116. MattJ

    Ha

  117. stpeter

    bear: sure thing, just edit the relevant events.xml file (they are sprinkled thoughout the repository), check in your changes, and run calgen.py on athena at /home/xsf/xmpp/

  118. Kev

    Fritzy: Well, it's transparent if it's on council@, as that's archived and public subscribable, but I don't mind forwarding to standards@ for general interest.

  119. linuxwolf

    sorry guys…something odd is happening with my server today

  120. MattJ

    In general it's not an issue, and I appreciate it's hard to keep on top of

  121. Kev

    linuxwolf: Can't trust those server guys.

  122. MattJ

    Definitely not

  123. bear

    i'll have to get with the infra team later to be added to git list

  124. Kev

    The reason it got to Mondays was that Peter started doing Radar to make my life easier, then Peter got busy and that got updated later, so I sent agendas later.

  125. Kev

    Now that I'm sorting out agendas based on the XEP Editor emails Peter sends out again, I can make them earlier.

  126. stpeter

    http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Radar is handy

  127. ralphm

    well, if we are moving to Wednesday, monday should be fine

  128. stpeter

    when it's updated :)

  129. Kev

    So I'll endeavour to continue sending them out Monday morning, for the meetings later in the week.

  130. stpeter

    Kev: WFM!

  131. Chris Newton

    linuxwolf, I never trust those server guys either.

  132. MattJ

    stpeter, when it's up to date radar is handy :)

  133. Kev

    bear: Talk to me later. I'll sort it out.

  134. MattJ

    Kev, thanks - Monday works

  135. Fritzy

    sudo corrupts, root corrupts absolutely.

  136. linuxwolf

    heh

  137. stpeter

    MattJ: yeah, whn

  138. Fritzy

    why do you keep talking to bear? I don't see him saying *anything*

  139. Kev

    Ok, so, agenda-wise, I'll send to standards@ as well, send it earlier relatively, and copy in XEP authors.

  140. stpeter

    most excellent

  141. Fritzy

    gravy

  142. MattJ

    All good

  143. Kev

    7) XEP-0258 (labels)

  144. Kev

    Kurt'd like me to give a heads up that he's approaching ready with this, is going to tidy it up, encourage implementors to update to the latest, and then will be requesting a last call.

  145. linuxwolf

    /nod

  146. ralphm

    yay

  147. MattJ

    Excellent

  148. linuxwolf

    hopefully this incarnation sticks

  149. Kev

    I had a discussion with him about reverting to the :0 version, with flat catalogues etc because the current version is more complex, but he persuaded me that it needs a hierachy.

  150. MattJ

    I have an implementation I can bring up to date then

  151. Fritzy

    you do?

  152. dwd

    linuxwolf, I think so. Given Kurt maintains ours, Kev maintains Swift's, and I maintain Gajim's, we can manage to bring those up to date.

  153. MattJ

    Fritzy, I do, mostly :)

  154. Kev

    8) Date of next meeting.

  155. linuxwolf

    plus, it helps that Kurt works directly with agencies that cannot be named

  156. dwd

    Fritzy, Interop tested no less.

  157. Kev

    I'll propose Wednesdays (starting in 8 days) at 4pm UK, and see how much Matt dislikes it.

  158. MattJ

    You need to disambiguate "Matt" now Kev :)

  159. dwd

    linuxwolf, Including one that has called me a subversive. :-)

  160. linuxwolf

    you'll need to clarify which "Matt" (-:

  161. Kev

    Bother.

  162. stpeter

    heh

  163. Kev

    MW.

  164. MattJ

    I'll survive for now

  165. MattJ

    (at 4pm)

  166. linuxwolf

    dwd: I thought you liked being called a subversive? (-:

  167. ralphm

    WFM

  168. linuxwolf

    +1

  169. Fritzy

    +1 for Wednesdays 1600UTC

  170. Kev

    Great, so next meeting'll be a week tomorrow.

  171. MattJ

    Perfect

  172. Kev

    Who wants responsibility for updating the calendar?

  173. MattJ

    I can do it

  174. Kev

    Excellent.

  175. Kev

    Oh, and minute writing. I'm happy to continue doing that, but if someone else is dying to do so I don't mind.

  176. stpeter

    thanks, Matthew!

  177. Kev

    No, I didn't think so :)

  178. MattJ

    Heh

  179. stpeter

    :P

  180. Kev

    9) Any other business?

  181. Fritzy

    nossir

  182. MattJ

    ralphm, what's FOSDEM status?

  183. stpeter

    Kev: we might want to figure out better ways of keeping the Radar page up to date

  184. linuxwolf

    when's the IETF meeting? Next week?

  185. Kev

    linuxwolf: Yes.

  186. stpeter

    linuxwolf: yes, but no XMPP WG session

  187. dwd

    Also, is it worth raising my interop suggestion?

  188. linuxwolf

    no, but I'm paying attention to kitten and hybi

  189. stpeter

    however, I'll be presenting about internationalized JIDs at the PRECIS WG session

  190. bear

    i need to remember hybi wg session next week

  191. Kev

    stpeter: Do you have something to suggest? Finding a volunteer to track council@ and update it sound s a good idea.

  192. linuxwolf

    bear: make sure you have your flamesuit

  193. ralphm

    we have a room

  194. ralphm

    on saturday

  195. Fritzy wonders why he can't see bear's messages.

  196. stpeter

    Kev: something to discuss

  197. Kev

    I'd suggest we mail members@ asking for a volunteer to track council@ and stardards@ and update it accordingly.

  198. ralphm

    I'll draft a Call for presentations soonish

  199. MattJ

    Fritzy, bear: We'll debug after the meeting - since all 3 servers involved are Prosody :)

  200. stpeter

    oh, and I've sourced a meeting room in Brussels for the Summit -- it's not in the center of town, but it's free and it should have good Internet connectivity since it's at a Cisco location

  201. bear

    ok

  202. Kev

    stpeter: Excellent.

  203. Kev

    ralphm: Excellent, thanks.

  204. Kev

    (And thanks for stpeter too, didn't mean to exclude)

  205. Kev

    So dwd's Plan For World Domination^w^w^w^wInterop suggestion.

  206. MattJ

    stpeter, wonderful, thanks

  207. Kev

    Anything worth discussing about that?

  208. MattJ

    I think we just need to drum up support

  209. Kev

    Other than that I'm strongly in favour of just about everything he suggested.

  210. stpeter

    about interop? I'm behind on the thread I started (as usual!)

  211. MattJ

    I see tasks for iteam and commteam

  212. Kev

    stpeter: Summary:

  213. bear

    my personal suggestion would be to just start doing it, make it visible and start letting people find their own way in

  214. Kev

    First week in December, do it online, XSF iteam set up DNS and certs, have a mailing list for people, and try and prove basic interop.

  215. Kev

    bear: It's a fine suggestion, but I think it's worth getting the message out strongly and soon that XMPP interop works just fine.

  216. Kev

    So I think it's worth putting the effort in to make an interop test work in the first instance.

  217. bear

    kev, completely agree - I was just saying that over planning may hinder uptake

  218. MattJ

    Agreed, a week of focus would be worth it

  219. linuxwolf

    but we need some planning

  220. bear

    I'm all for getting the interop news front and center

  221. linuxwolf

    Oscon was too much anarchy

  222. dwd

    Oh, and to repeat here, Isode providing CA software is confirmed, if wanted.

  223. bear

    oscon was also the first time we did interop of any serious nature

  224. Kev

    dwd: with one of my non-Isode hats on, that sounds good to the iteam :)

  225. bear

    so the first week of december's interop will be just as messy until CA and DNS issues are sorted out

  226. stpeter

    bear: we did interop for Jingle at FOSDEM a few years ago and that went well, plus lots of basic interop (especially s2s) at the very first Summit

  227. bear

    oscon was hampered by dns, network and not having server folks on hand (I think)

  228. Kev

    I'm happy for the iteam to take on DNS and CA stuffs and make sure that works.

  229. dwd

    The main problem with the FOSDEM Jingle Thingle was lack of published results.

  230. Kev

    If we get a list of the servers that'll be taking part.

  231. Kev

    So I suggest that Board discuss this tomorrow, that they agree that it's a jolly good idea, and that the wheels get set in motion.

  232. bear

    I have the domain xmpptest.com if you think it would be useful - I can move it to the xsf

  233. stpeter

    OT: I love it when fellow Isoders disagree within the XMPP WG -- such a free-spirited corporate culture! ;-)

  234. Kev

    We've just hit 30mins, so I'm reached meeting-discomfort :)

  235. stpeter

    heh

  236. Kev

    s/I'm/I've/

  237. linuxwolf

    hehe

  238. stpeter

    ok we can discuss the interop stuff in more detail next meeting, right?

  239. Fritzy

    s/I've/We've/g

  240. Kev

    Which reminds me that I need to submit http://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/xep-correct.html sometime.

  241. Kev

    Yes, and bear's promised to get Board to agree to it tomorrow, so all is good :)

  242. bear

    :)

  243. Kev

    Right, any other any other business?

  244. Fritzy

    stpeter: maybe a separate meeting for interop

  245. stpeter

    I think we're done

  246. stpeter

    Fritzy: yes, could be

  247. MattJ

    None here

  248. Kev

    Jolly good. I'll write up minutes and send out. (I usually aim for <=24 hours).

  249. linuxwolf

    I've got one agenda item for next meeting: focus for this term

  250. Kev

    linuxwolf: noted.

  251. linuxwolf

    but we can talk about it later and/or on list

  252. stpeter

    linuxwolf: see also my roadmap post

  253. Kev

    Ok, thanks all.

  254. linuxwolf

    @stpeter that's what I'm refering to (-:

  255. MattJ

    Thanks Kev

  256. Kev bangs the gavel.

  257. linuxwolf

    adios amigos

  258. stpeter

    it's great to see all this energy -- now we just need to sustain it :)

  259. linuxwolf

    let's see what happens after the winter solstice (-:

  260. MattJ

    :)

  261. MattJ

    bear, ok - do you see Fritzy's messages?

  262. linuxwolf

    'course, that was the council from 4-5 years ago, too (-:

  263. bear

    yes

  264. MattJ

    Fritzy, what client are you using?

  265. Fritzy

    Swift.

  266. MattJ

    bear, what client are you using?

  267. Fritzy

    I see them now.

  268. bear

    Swift

  269. bear

    I restarted swift

  270. MattJ

    Fritzy, oh really? It just started?

  271. bear

    after setting my status

  272. MattJ hands it over to Kev and relaxes

  273. bear

    I suspect swift reconnected after my laptop went to sleep and I was marked as hidden

  274. Fritzy

    I think it was user-error on my part.

  275. bear

    or that ;)

  276. linuxwolf

    heh

  277. bear

    oh - so you had me on the ignore list .... hmmm.....

  278. bear

    :)

  279. Fritzy

    My ocular-grep was skipping your avatar.

  280. Kev

    Haha.

  281. Fritzy

    or rather, not associating it with you.

  282. linuxwolf

    ok, on to my next meeting…ttyl

  283. bear

    yea, still haven't figured out how to set that

  284. Kev

    bear: not through Swift yet. It'll be in 1.0.

  285. bear

    *nod*

  286. Fritzy

    avatars as primary in mucs are cool, but confusing

  287. Fritzy

    not how my brain works, at least not without a real picture.

  288. Kev

    If you're in a MUC where people use avatars, I find it much much more convenient.

  289. Kev

    If people don't have avatars, less well.

  290. Kev

    Some abstracts work (e.g. I can associate MattJ and Peter by avatar fine), but I've not got bear's wired in yet.

  291. stpeter

    I like Kev's 30-minute meeting policy

  292. Fritzy

    :)

  293. Fritzy

    it's a good one.

  294. dwd

    [16:34:00] * Kev bangs the gavel.

  295. dwd

    4 minutes over.

  296. Kev

    Yeah, I blame whoever brought up interop as an AOB.

  297. dwd

    stpeter, Incidentally, Isode people never disagree on the WG lists, because our participation in the IETF is always personal, thus we are not Isode people when we disagree. :-)

  298. stpeter

    that's true

  299. dwd

    stpeter, OTOH, I have heard of some companies who have premeetings prior to IETF week to ensure all their participants toe the company line.

  300. MattJ

    :D

  301. stpeter

    Cisco folks are legendary for disagreeing at IETF meetings

  302. dwd

    stpeter, Oh, sure. I wasn't meaning Cisco.