-
Kev
So, we have nothing to discuss, but we still have a meeting scheduled.
-
Kev
I think a quick discussion of RTT would be sensible, though.
- Kev waits for 7minutes.
-
linuxwolf
I take it we only have an "unofficial" topic today? (-:
-
Kev
Oh, two, actually.
-
linuxwolf
!agenda
-
Kev
Oh, maybe I should write a bot to do that.
-
Kev
That'd be good.
- Kev makes a note.
-
linuxwolf
at one point, chatbot could do that
-
linuxwolf
or some variation of it
-
Kev
Well, I'm working (very slowly) on a new bot, so I'll add that to it when it's ready.
-
linuxwolf
heh
-
linuxwolf
I'm working very slowly on a new voting bot
-
Kev
Oh, wonderful.
-
linuxwolf
but it's built with EVIL CLOSED SOURCE EMPIRE SOFTWARE right now
-
Kev
Heh.
-
Kev
Language?
-
linuxwolf
er, was…I'll have to see if that repo survived some migrations
-
Kev
You're welcome to throw it up on top of Swiftob if it's something C++ish.
-
linuxwolf
it started Java, then moved to JavaScript…now, we'll see
-
linuxwolf
well, I need to get it through Legal first (-:
-
Kev
Well, javascript is almost Lua, and I'll be putting Lua support in shortly.
-
Kev
Ah, I hadn't understood that the code itself was evil and closed-source as well as what it was using :)
-
linuxwolf
the "joys" of working for a multi-national
-
linuxwolf
yeah, unfortunately
-
linuxwolf
the closed-source part might change…you know, eventually…maybe
-
linuxwolf
/sigh
-
Kev
Everyone has been poked.
-
Kev
6 billion people took a while, but it's been done.
-
linuxwolf
raflmao
-
Kev
There we go, right room this week :)
-
Kev
No response from Ralph to the ping, but we have quorum.
-
Kev
Autobots transform and roll out!
-
MattJ
What's on the agenda?
-
Kev
MattJ: I'm making it up as we go along, sorry.
-
linuxwolf
RTT
-
MattJ
k
-
Kev
1) Roll call
-
linuxwolf
presente
-
Fritzy
here
-
Kev
I like the idea of people replying to Roll calls, so I at least have an idea they're listening at the start :)
-
Kev
I used to always just list who was here, and then spend the meeting wondering if they were at their PCs :)
-
MattJ
I'm here, I think
-
Kev
Marverful.
-
Kev
2) Agenda bashing.
-
Kev
So, yeah, until 30mins ago I didn't think we had much agenda, but now I think we do.
-
Fritzy
oh, ok
-
Kev
So I'm making it up as we go along, it basically goes "RTT" and then "XEP-Correct"
-
linuxwolf
hehehe
-
Kev
Anyone else have things we need to talk about?
-
Fritzy
I just finished catching up on that thread.
-
Kev
I'll take that as a no :)
-
Fritzy
Kev: nothing here
-
Kev
So...
-
Kev
3) RTT
-
Kev
That thread seems to be making progress to address my concerns.
-
Fritzy
Sounds like he's going to do a revised spec.
-
MattJ
Indeed
-
Kev
They've persuaded me that all the gumph around delay transmission and stuff is useful to a subset of users.
-
linuxwolf
yes
-
Fritzy
and you pretty much summed up all of the concerns that I had (plus some). I still need to poke the thread a bit now that I've caught up.
-
Kev
And I think they've agreed to tidy up the spec, split it into Stuff You Must Have, and The Complicated Stuff.
-
linuxwolf
I do find it somewhat funny we're introducing a spec that benefits a protected class of individuals but could be a detriment to everyone else (-:
-
Fritzy
yeah, but there still isn't a super-easy base.
-
Kev
Fritzy: There is, I think.
-
MattJ
Personally I hate the idea of transmitting text as I type
-
Kev
If they agree to do replace-only as the base.
-
linuxwolf
we'll have to see what the next rev is like
-
Kev
Right, I dislike using this feature, but I can see the merit in clients supporting it in case you ever talk to a deaf person or whatever.
-
MattJ
but it seems plenty of people want it, and I'd rather we spec it through the XSF than leave them to cook up something themselves
-
Kev
I'd turn it on, despite disliking it, if I was talking to someone who'd greatly benefit.
-
Fritzy
I'd use it for Frontdesk.im
-
Fritzy
if it were simple enough to implement
-
linuxwolf
my typing abilities are atrocious enough
-
linuxwolf
(-:
-
Kev
I think there's merit in what he says, too.
-
Fritzy
because I have customers that want it
-
Kev
The basic set of operations *are* just basic deterministic string manipulations.
-
linuxwolf
I don't know that our customers would allow it in their networks…but we'll see
-
Kev
The pain is in writing the parsers and serialisers for it all.
-
Fritzy
He's not afraid to send a wall of text back at every point.
-
Kev
So, basically, I'd like people to reply on-list please, even if it's just to say that you feel your concerns are/aren't being addressed by the way the conversation's going.
-
Fritzy
ok
-
Kev
(and if they aren't, why, of course)
-
Kev
I'd like it if when they came back with a v2 spec, they'd had all the feedback they need to make it something we could accept.
-
linuxwolf
/nod
-
Kev
So, onwards
-
Kev
4) Xep-correct.
-
Kev
I wrote up http://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/xep-correct.html (could you have a quick read please, it's very short)...
-
Fritzy
reading..
-
Fritzy
(saw you mentioned it in the thread)
-
linuxwolf
I think I've seen this before...
-
Kev
some time ago, and didn't get around to filling in the blanks. Various people keep prodding me because they want it published. Is the approach acceptable to Council, and if so what's the minimum I need to do to the spec to get it past a pseudo-vote to experimental?
-
Kev
Hi Ralph.
-
ralphm
hi
-
MattJ
"Standard stuff. To come later."
-
MattJ
I mean, the approach is clearly ok
-
linuxwolf
Kev: namespace to urn:xmpp:correct:0, and but a schema in place; maybe the boiler plate about using Disco
-
MattJ
Just editorial stuff
-
Fritzy
you don't address multiple <body /> here.
-
Fritzy
which seems like it could pose a problem for multi-language messages
-
Kev
Fritzy: This is true. This is easily worded around, though.
-
MattJ
Good catch
-
linuxwolf
I wouldn't have held it up for the l10n problems
-
Kev
"Only do the replacement on the body with the same xml:lang as the one you've received"
-
MattJ
Just choose the body with the same xml:lang as the <replace>
-
linuxwolf
not to get to experimental
-
Fritzy
yeah, I think filling in the blanks is enough for experimental
-
linuxwolf
for features, just pick some not-insane values for now, and let's push it!
-
Kev
Ok, so, summary of what I need to do is 1) Add the Disco/caps examples 2) change namespace (although I think this act technically happens at the moment it become Experimental) 3) add Schema.
-
linuxwolf
+1
-
MattJ
+1
-
Fritzy
+1
-
MattJ
Though the multiple body issue is probably just a couple of sentences, so if you can... :)
-
linuxwolf
I have a BCP for resource locking I need to get cleaned up and submitted
-
Kev
I'll see how my 'free time' looks, and see if I can get it to Peter and through to the inbox in time for next week.
-
ralphm
+1
-
Fritzy
beyond experimental, you might separate the client-uses out of the protocol language in a separate section
-
stpeter
um I thought we weren't having a meeting today
-
linuxwolf
yeah, use cases versus implementation notes…but we can work through that on the lists
-
Fritzy
stpeter: I thought so too, but apparently minds were changed
-
Kev
stpeter: I don't think anyone proposed skipping it.
-
stpeter
aha
-
Fritzy
yeah, not directly
-
linuxwolf
we never said we *weren't*
-
linuxwolf
(-:
-
Kev
linuxwolf: We didn't say we weren't, and last Thursday we said we were, so ... ;)
-
linuxwolf
exacetally
-
Kev
Sure, though, I can see me sending a mail asking for agenda items could be interpreted as a meeting cancellation.
-
Kev
Probably an American vs. English thing.
-
Kev
:D
- stpeter reminds Fritzy that he needs to vote on XEP-0198 version 1.2
-
linuxwolf
<replace id='blah' xmlns='urn:xmpp:correct:0'>exactly</replace>
-
ralphm
I also assumed there wouln't be a meeting.
-
Fritzy
stpeter: I went to bed early/sick -- is it not too late?
-
Kev
I should have sent out an agenda etc. Until this afternoon, I thought we had no items and was going to propose cancelling, and by the time we were T-60minutes I didn't see the point in sending one out when we could discuss here.
-
Kev
Anyway.
-
Kev
5) Any other business.
-
Kev
Anyone?
-
MattJ
NOP
-
linuxwolf
not this week
-
Kev
To keep everyone informed, Bear's halfway through doing the GSoC application.
-
linuxwolf
hopefully in time for next
-
Fritzy
till next week
-
linuxwolf
coolio
-
stpeter
Fritzy: not too late, no
-
MattJ
We're having a harder time getting GSoC ideas together for Prosody than we had last year
-
stpeter
it seems that I missed the RTT discussion :(
-
Kev
stpeter: Oh, panic ye not, it's still ongoing :)
-
MattJ
Since last year nearly all the GSoC ideas have been started by us or community members :)
-
Kev
MattJ: New archiving? :)
-
Fritzy
stpeter: to summarize -- make sure they have enough info to make their second proposal acceptable
-
MattJ
That's hardly a whole GSoC project
-
MattJ
sadly
-
Kev
If anyone can persuade people to please submit ideas for various projects, please please do. It looks lonely with just BC and Swift up.
-
linuxwolf
MattJ: vcard-temp to vcard4 converter? (-:
-
Kev
I've poked assorted projects, Bear tells me he's been poking assorted projects too.
-
MattJ
ick
-
stpeter
as to RTT, it is important for a subset of users, and we really don't want folks to use RFC 4103 because there's no XMPP solution :)
-
linuxwolf
MattJ: vcard is like broccoli; not many people like it, but you have to have it
-
stpeter
I love broccoli!
-
Kev
stpeter: I think the discussion onlist is progressing productively. The intention is to clean up the spec and resubmit.
-
linuxwolf
stpeter: fine, then jelly beans for you!
-
Kev
6) Date of next meeting.
-
Kev
Next Wednesday?
-
MattJ
linuxwolf, I love broccoli, I don't love vcard4 :)
-
MattJ
Next Wednesday seems ok for me
-
Fritzy
+1 next wed
-
stpeter
Kev: super
-
linuxwolf
MattJ: vcard is like <insert undesirable but healthy food item here>; you don't like it, but have to have it
-
Fritzy
I'll likely miss the one after that as I'll be traveling to ITaly
-
stpeter
Kev: I've been reading Internet-Drafts, but will dive into RTT later today
-
linuxwolf
+1 for wed
-
MattJ
linuxwolf, I don't like sprouts, and I do fine without them
-
stpeter
I'm happy to see the RTT folks engaging on the list
-
Kev
Very nice, I ate lots of pizza in Italy a few weeks ago :)
-
linuxwolf
heh
-
Kev
Ok, so I think we're on for Wed then.
-
Fritzy
we'll have to talk outside of the meeting then
-
stpeter
so xep-correct is to be published?
-
stpeter
seems to be unanimous
-
Fritzy
not yet
-
MattJ
Kev is to clean up and submit it
-
Kev
stpeter: No, XEP-Correct is to have a few fixes so it's suitable for submission, then Council have agreed to publish it :)
-
MattJ
and we've pre-approved it :)
-
Fritzy
no no
-
Kev
Apart from me, I've not approved it yet :D
-
stpeter
and I saw no objections to vcard4 xep (vcard4 is another matter!) so I assume that is to be published
-
stpeter
ok
-
stpeter
Kev: :P
-
Fritzy
we've suggested that Kev should
-
stpeter
ok
- linuxwolf is feeling like a dirty loan servicer (-:
-
Kev
stpeter: Voting period on vcard4 is over, so that's approved, yes.
-
Fritzy
linuxwolf: dude, the inner circle has an agenda, man.
-
Kev
s/Voting/Thing that looks like voting, but isn't/
-
MattJ
vcard4 is to be published, but I'm unconvinced of it seeing adoption and going beyond that unless it changes, but we'll see
-
Kev
Ok, I think we're done, then.
-
stpeter
I'm giving Fritzy a grace period on 198 in case he finds anything bad
-
Kev
stpeter: Very generous :)
-
Fritzy
looking for bad right now
-
stpeter
but I'll push it out by end of day if we don't hear from him
-
linuxwolf
MattJ: please post your concerns to the lst
-
stpeter
Fritzy: many thanks
-
Kev
Ok, thanks all :)
-
linuxwolf
*list
-
stpeter
yep thanks
- Kev gangs the bavel.
- stpeter goes back to IESG telechat preparation
-
MattJ
linuxwolf, I discussed it a bit with waqas and he posted for the both of us :)
-
linuxwolf
adios, off to next meetage
- Kev adds minute-writing to his TODO
-
stpeter
heh
-
stpeter
thanks
-
stpeter
Kev: regarding message correction, I'll ping Florian because he was working on a proto-proto-xep about this once upon a time
-
Kev
Which of the assorted Florians? :)
-
stpeter
Florian Jensen
-
Kev
I did send this one out to standards@ some 6 months ago, so I imagine he's aware of it, but thanks :)
-
stpeter
ah
-
stpeter
well I poked him via IM
-
Fritzy
stpeter: section 5 "In addition, this allows entities to establish definitively which stanzas require resending and which do not, eliminating replay issues."
-
stpeter
I must've missed it 6 months ago
-
Fritzy
that seems a bit more definitive than it probably means to be
-
Fritzy
I mean, if an ack is only sent every so often, it doesn't prevent all replay
-
stpeter
well, you know which stanzas haven't been acked and therefore might need to be resent
-
stpeter
I think that text came from Dave Cridland's patch, so I'll blame him :)
-
Fritzy
haha
-
stpeter
I think this would be better: In addition, this enables entities to establish which stanzas might need to be resent.
-
Fritzy
I think that is less amiguous.
-
Fritzy
*ambiguous
-
Fritzy
I need XEP-correct
-
stpeter
:)
-
MattJ
I think the point he's trying to make is that without this, there's the chance of message duplication ("replay")
-
stpeter
right
-
stpeter
the word "replay" brings to mind replay attacks
-
MattJ
which is what convinced me in the end that XEP-0198 cannot, and should not, be split
-
MattJ
despite my original desires :)
-
stpeter
heh
-
Fritzy
stpeter: sent my vote
-
stpeter
how about this? In addition, this enables entities to establish which stanzas might need to be resent, thus reducing the likelihood that an entity will send or receive duplicate messages.
-
stpeter
s/messages/stanzas/
-
MattJ
Does it reduce the likelihood, or eliminate the possibility?
-
stpeter
well
-
Kev
Fritzy: 198 is draft, so this is in fact a real vote (i.e. your +1 is a +1, not a veto) :)
-
MattJ
I thought the latter, but I may be wrong
-
stpeter
to Fritzy's point, it might depend on how you use it
-
stpeter
eliminate is a strong word :)
-
Kev
(not a not a veto - I need XEP-correct)
-
stpeter
it's probably not good to overpromise
-
Fritzy
Kev: alright. :)
-
Fritzy
Kev: ah right,
-
Fritzy
MattJ: it depends on how it is used
-
stpeter
http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/tenth-council/ updated
-
ralphm
stpeter: cool. I also noticed that the bios on the Council page are outdated
-
stpeter
ralphm: we can give you editing privileges :)
-
stpeter
or send updates to the council@ list