XMPP Council - 2011-03-16

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09:37:13 Kev !agendaappend XEP-0237: Roster Versioning Accept version 1.2? http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0237/diff/1.1/vs/1.2rc1 http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0237-1.2.html
09:37:13 Kanchil+ Kev: Done.
09:37:23 Kev !agendaup -6
09:37:23 Kanchil+ Kev: 0) Fini.
09:37:28 Kev !agendaup
09:37:28 Kanchil+ Kev: 1) Roll call
09:37:45 Kev !agendaup -1
09:37:45 Kanchil+ Kev: 0) Fini.
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11:09:07 dwd !agenda
11:09:20 dwd Oh. It's not here.
11:09:35 dwd gives up and reads the scrollback instead.
11:09:54 Kev It is here, it just won't listen to you
11:09:55 Kev !agenda
11:09:55 Kanchil+ Kev: 1) Roll call 2) Agenda bashing 3) Proposed XMPP Extension: Jingle RTP Header Extensions Negotiation http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/rtp-hdrext.html Accept as XEP? 4) Proposed XMPP Extension: Jingle RTP Feedback Negotiation http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/rtcp-fb.html Accept as XEP? 5) Proposed XMPP Extension: Sensor-Over-XMPP http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sensors.html Accept as XEP? 6) XEP-0237: Roster Versioning Accept version 1.2? http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0237/diff/1.1/vs/1.2rc1 http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0237-1.2.html 7) Date of next meeting 8) Any other business Fini
11:10:07 dwd Interesting. I don't see it...
11:10:17 Kev Are you looking at the moderators?
11:10:41 dwd Yes. Probably it's just that I really need to update my server to a recent build. :-)
11:11:43 dwd Oh, either that or I got desynched at some point.
11:12:14 Kev Could be.
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14:43:46 stpeter ah, from my perspective today's Council meeting is shifted forward an hour -- I think European countries go forward on March 26, right?
14:44:08 Kev Sounds right for the UK.
14:44:32 stpeter great, I get to lose two hours this year because I'll be in Prague then
14:44:34 Kev I was aware the US wasn't in sync with the UK (is it even in sync with itself?), that's why I warned everyone last week :)
14:45:00 stpeter plus I lose that hour the night I arrive -- fun :)
14:45:19 stpeter ah, the glamour of international travel
14:45:55 stpeter crawls back under his rock to concentrate on document reviews for tomorrow's IESG telechat
14:46:59 Kev Enjoy :)
14:47:31 stpeter Kev: BTW I noticed http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Radar in the room subject -- perhaps I should delete that page or redirect it to http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/
14:47:52 stpeter set the topic to XMPP Council Room | http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/ | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/
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15:01:25 Kev One hour.
15:01:32 Tobias has left
15:01:32 Kev For those wondering about timezones :)
15:01:37 linuxwolf (-:
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15:54:55 stpeter hi Ralph and Fritzy!
15:55:02 Fritzy howdy
15:59:33 Kev Right, enough time to graba sammich :)
15:59:58 linuxwolf !agenda
16:00:21 linuxwolf Kanchil+ is so capricious
16:00:26 stpeter maybe Kanchil ain't feeling so plus today
16:00:31 Kev !agenda
16:00:31 Kanchil+ Kev: 1) Roll call 2) Agenda bashing 3) Proposed XMPP Extension: Jingle RTP Header Extensions Negotiation http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/rtp-hdrext.html Accept as XEP? 4) Proposed XMPP Extension: Jingle RTP Feedback Negotiation http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/rtcp-fb.html Accept as XEP? 5) Proposed XMPP Extension: Sensor-Over-XMPP http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sensors.html Accept as XEP? 6) XEP-0237: Roster Versioning Accept version 1.2? http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0237/diff/1.1/vs/1.2rc1 http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0237-1.2.html 7) Date of next meeting 8) Any other business Fini
16:00:35 Kev Seems good to me :)
16:00:40 stpeter :P
16:01:04 Kev I do have a patch to make that command "anyone" instead of "owner", but haven't deployed it.
16:01:07 Kev Anyway, it is time.
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16:01:19 Kev Fritzy, linuxwolf, ralphm: PIING :)
16:01:23 Kev !agendaup
16:01:23 Kanchil+ Kev: 1) Roll call
16:01:25 Kev I'm here
16:01:26 linuxwolf pong
16:01:34 Kev MattJ sent apologies.
16:01:39 ralphm woot
16:02:12 Kev Fritzy: you there?
16:02:55 Fritzy yeah
16:02:59 Kev Jolly good.
16:03:01 Kev !agendaup
16:03:01 Kanchil+ Kev: 2) Agenda bashing
16:03:10 Fritzy I like what we have today
16:03:32 Kev No-one, then?
16:03:34 Kev Jolly good :)
16:03:35 linuxwolf I'd like to talk about..
16:03:42 linuxwolf gah…slow down there, Tex
16:03:50 stpeter :)
16:03:50 Kev :)
16:03:56 linuxwolf moving carbons fwd (-:
16:04:22 linuxwolf that's it
16:04:23 Kev !agendaappend Moving carbons forward.
16:04:23 Kanchil+ Kev: Done.
16:04:35 Kev !agendaup
16:04:35 Kanchil+ Kev: 3) Proposed XMPP Extension: Jingle RTP Header Extensions Negotiation http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/rtp-hdrext.html Accept as XEP?
16:04:46 Kev I'm ok with this.
16:05:06 linuxwolf +1
16:05:37 Fritzy it seems fine to me +1
16:06:06 Kev ralphm: ?
16:06:37 ralphm I was wondering if sdp is used in combination with jingle
16:06:52 dwd A question - is there any mileage in having entities advertise supported RTP headers via Disco as well?
16:07:09 dwd ralphm, We basically use the same semantics as SDP but within an XML syntax, in Jingle.
16:07:47 ralphm right
16:08:37 Kev You know, CSN would be useful in MUCs sometimes...
16:08:44 linuxwolf (-:
16:08:53 stpeter dwd: sounds like a good question to ask on the jingle@ list
16:08:57 stpeter Kev: in meetings, yes
16:09:04 Fritzy dwd: I think that could be useful, and could easily be added to the spec... but I don't know the answer.
16:09:17 linuxwolf to the list!
16:09:31 Kev ralphm: Did you have an opinion on it right now?
16:09:32 Fritzy I mean, it's already there
16:09:33 ralphm I'm +1
16:09:35 Kev Ta.
16:09:56 Kev I'm assuming dwd volunteered to mail the list with the question.
16:09:58 Kev !agendaup
16:09:58 Kanchil+ Kev: 4) Proposed XMPP Extension: Jingle RTP Feedback Negotiation http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/rtcp-fb.html Accept as XEP?
16:10:06 Kev I'm similarly +1 on this.
16:10:17 linuxwolf also +1
16:10:49 Fritzy yup, along the same lines +1
16:11:42 Kev ralphm: ?
16:11:42 dwd So as this is another SDP reframed, is it worth considering making a generic SDP-in-XML specification somewhere instead?
16:12:10 dwd Otherwise someone has to "port" each new SDPism into Jingle, which seems unfortunate.
16:12:13 stpeter dwd: I don't think SDP is generically-structured enough for that to be possible
16:12:21 linuxwolf I seem to recall some attempt at that, but SDP isn't generic enough
16:12:27 linuxwolf gah…beat by the saint
16:12:30 ralphm +1
16:12:49 ralphm dwd: right, that was really my point earlier but I got distracted
16:13:00 Kev dwd: Is that volunteering to bring stuff up on list again?
16:13:09 ralphm http://www.scribd.com/doc/95534/Jingle-Multimedia-Description-Using-SDP
16:13:12 ralphm is something I found
16:13:18 dwd I never volunteer. I might assign a staff member, though.
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16:13:31 ralphm which looks horrible
16:13:33 Fritzy haha, there you go
16:13:37 linuxwolf maybe the council can volunteer dwd
16:13:39 linuxwolf (-:
16:14:09 dwd I can delegate to an underling. :-)
16:14:19 ralphm minion, is the term
16:14:19 stpeter I didn't realize dwd had minions
16:14:22 stpeter heh
16:14:24 Kev Oh, well, that's one way of wrapping SDP, I suppose.
16:14:29 linuxwolf or peon
16:14:31 dwd stpeter, Henchmen.
16:14:37 Fritzy I have authenticated linuxwolf's identity by his backwards smile
16:14:48 linuxwolf (-;
16:14:53 Kev Ok, moving on then.
16:14:55 Kev !agendaup
16:14:55 Kanchil+ Kev: 5) Proposed XMPP Extension: Sensor-Over-XMPP http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sensors.html Accept as XEP?
16:15:02 linuxwolf oof
16:15:04 Fritzy so, I have a concern
16:15:08 linuxwolf that was a hard hard read
16:15:12 Kev This one has enough problems that I'm tempted to -1 it.
16:15:14 dwd I read most of that one. At least the first 270 pages.
16:15:25 Kev Let me find them.
16:15:25 Fritzy using pubsub to send commands (actuators in this case) is a mis-use.
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16:15:34 linuxwolf agreed
16:15:44 Kev Fritzy: Actually, that's one thing that I'm not *too* worried about.
16:16:12 linuxwolf the structuring is awkward…and the differences in timestamping..and ....
16:16:13 dwd Fritzy, Erm... Perhaps. Queueing commands that should be processed by available actuators seems like a non-misuse.
16:16:15 Kev The semantics seem to fit.
16:16:16 ralphm I never considered solving this problem domain so generically
16:16:22 stpeter dwd: I'll volunteer you for the IESG, then you'll find out about reading long documents...
16:16:46 Fritzy really, this spec could be watered down to a payload schema and some basic intro.
16:16:49 linuxwolf is surprised stpeter's desk has not collapsed from the weight of printed I-Ds
16:16:59 Kev I had general XEPpish concerns. The XSD should be at the end, not upfront. The use cases shouldn't be duplicated.
16:17:14 Kev Quibbles like SHOULDs for naming, with UUIDs ,and _data/_meta.
16:17:26 Kev Wondering why it advertises iPhones particularly.
16:17:29 dwd Kev, Also there was some redundant text, like the repeated use cases.
16:17:32 stpeter Kev: right, and the timestamp stuff etc.
16:17:39 Fritzy dwd: subtle
16:17:50 Kev Extensibility should probably be through namespaced children, not through generic name/value pairs.
16:17:55 ralphm for one thing I'd assume using URIs for defining types
16:17:58 dwd Fritzy, In a brickesque manner.
16:17:58 Kev Fritzy: From the department of redundancy department.
16:17:59 linuxwolf it seems like something that could be split up
16:18:25 Kev The examples aren't actually protocol examples, so there's no easy way of following what actually happens.
16:18:36 dwd Personally I shuddered a bit at the bit where you specify the SI prefix.
16:18:41 Kev I realised after reading that I hadn't noticed a namespace anywhere.
16:18:47 Fritzy there is almost no protocol here
16:18:52 Fritzy it is just a payload schema
16:19:00 Fritzy with some naming convention advice
16:19:01 stpeter ralphm's point is a good one -- do we need such a generic approach? (and have other standards groups defined such an approach already so that we can reuse their schema?)
16:19:09 ralphm dwd: that too, I'd expect a numeric exponent
16:19:31 Kev Fritzy: Yes, but that's not a good reason not to have a couple of example stanzas, just so you can see what's happening.
16:19:35 Kev IMHO.
16:19:44 Fritzy but yeah, I really dislike the idea of sending commands over pubsub -- especially the way they are.
16:19:45 stpeter on the plus side, it does use "atto", "zepto", and "yocto" ;-)
16:19:59 linuxwolf the few examples I think I see are partial protocol
16:20:07 Kev stpeter: Yes, I was wondering if that was a plus side when I read it :)
16:20:14 linuxwolf stpeter: yeah, I didn't see that as a plus (-:
16:20:18 Kev linuxwolf: Yeah, but not whole stanzas, and not (I think) namespaced.
16:20:26 linuxwolf definitely not namespaces
16:20:36 linuxwolf s/namespaces/namespaced/
16:20:46 Kev Which makes this invalid to implement, even if you read through all the pages.
16:20:56 ralphm stpeter: tradionally, we've defined very application specific protocols, formats
16:21:10 stpeter ralphm: right
16:21:15 ralphm e.g. we used our own geo/address stuff instead of horribly long specs
16:21:21 Fritzy yeah, I'm not opposed to this being a XEP
16:21:23 ralphm and defined mappings, where needed
16:21:24 Kev I don't know, this could be cleaned up, without significant underlying changes probably, so maybe I shouldn't block it.
16:21:35 dwd One thing I did like is that none of the protocol actually defined anything new - this can be done, as I understand things, with a generic XEP-0060 service.
16:21:37 Kev I don't object to the approach, I object to the document.
16:21:46 Fritzy They should use ad-hoc commands for commands.
16:21:48 linuxwolf heh
16:21:51 Kev So I'm +/-0
16:21:59 Fritzy and Matt earns another $.25
16:22:07 ralphm dwd: we have multiple "payload format" specs, maybe this should be one
16:22:13 stpeter BTW, I've been talking of late with a number of "smart grid" / "smart energy" folks and OASIS is defining a whole raft of payload formats, which we could send over XMPP instead of their current default (which is web services)
16:22:13 linuxwolf Fritzy: tell hildjj he owes me $0.25
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16:22:27 Kev stpeter: Excellent.
16:22:31 Fritzy ralphm: agreed
16:22:54 Fritzy stpeter: I've talked to some of those types too... but it's been about a year.
16:22:55 linuxwolf sounds like we should link this XEP's authors with those folks
16:22:58 ralphm I'm still not convinced it should be defined at the XSF, though
16:23:05 stpeter (and in fact a number of people in the smart grid space are already using XMPP)
16:23:06 Kev Ok, so, what does everyone think at this stage? I'm +-0
16:23:14 linuxwolf -0
16:23:20 stpeter hey, no +/- voting :P
16:23:30 Kev -0 then :p
16:23:34 linuxwolf that's the ticket!
16:23:37 Fritzy sqrt(-1)
16:23:49 linuxwolf Fritzy has to be irrational
16:24:07 Fritzy I think this should be redrafted as an informational spec.
16:24:12 Fritzy but perhaps...
16:24:25 Kev Fritzy: Are you vetoing or not vetoing? (And ralphm the same)
16:24:34 Fritzy thinking... give me a second
16:24:39 ralphm -0
16:24:54 Fritzy I don't want to discourage them from resubmitting, but I think they should resubmit.
16:25:03 Fritzy I don't think this should go into experimental.
16:25:09 Fritzy not in the standards track
16:25:10 Kev So that's a veto, then?
16:25:12 linuxwolf so that's -1?
16:25:13 Fritzy yeah, -1
16:25:19 Kev Ok, ta.
16:25:25 stpeter units="celcius"?
16:25:33 ralphm oh, -1 then
16:25:34 ralphm :-D
16:25:35 Fritzy units=votes
16:25:44 ralphm obviously that should be Kelvin
16:25:52 Kev ralphm: I'm to assume that's flippant, yes?
16:25:59 ralphm Kev: yeah
16:26:18 Kev Fritzy: You'll need to write up an explanation to standards@, with why it's vetod, and what the path forward is then :)
16:26:20 Kev !agendaup
16:26:20 Kanchil+ Kev: 6) XEP-0237: Roster Versioning Accept version 1.2? http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0237/diff/1.1/vs/1.2rc1 http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0237-1.2.html
16:26:25 Kev +1
16:26:29 linuxwolf +1
16:26:30 Fritzy Kev, will do
16:26:52 MattJ +1 :)
16:26:58 linuxwolf whoa
16:26:58 Kev He's there!
16:26:59 Kev Kinda.
16:27:02 ralphm +1
16:27:03 MattJ Yeah, kinda
16:27:08 Fritzy +1
16:27:23 MattJ In a busy office (that isn't mine), but I managed to get them to set me up with a network connection
16:28:05 Kev !agendaup
16:28:05 Kanchil+ Kev: 7) Moving carbons forward.
16:28:05 Fritzy I'm in a castle.
16:28:11 linuxwolf heh
16:28:13 linuxwolf ok, so
16:28:33 linuxwolf I'm hearing of lots of interest, and we've had a modicum of list discuss
16:28:45 Kev linuxwolf: I have changes I want to make to this, that depend upon MattJ's as-yet-unsubmitted stuff.
16:28:52 linuxwolf Kev: right
16:29:04 Kev So I propose that Matt submits http://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/forwarding.html
16:29:05 linuxwolf I'm agreed, and ready to make the edits…once I have something to reference
16:29:05 Fritzy looks up Modicum.
16:29:08 Kev I update Carbons.
16:29:14 Kev Or you do :)
16:29:20 Kev Then we can advance it :)
16:29:24 MattJ Sure
16:29:28 linuxwolf I'm happy to update it
16:29:37 linuxwolf it == message carbons
16:29:51 ralphm so what is that the council needs to do now?
16:30:05 Kev ralphm: Council, nothing. Council members (Matt/Matt) need to do stuff :)
16:30:08 linuxwolf cajole Matthew into submitting forwarding (-:
16:30:09 Kev With MattJ first.
16:30:27 MattJ Yeah ok... perhaps I can set aside some time on Saturday
16:30:37 MattJ I've been having lots of discussions that I need to incorporate
16:30:43 linuxwolf /nod
16:30:47 Kev MattJ: Oh, changes to this?
16:31:03 linuxwolf I have some security concerns with as currently defined, but will wait until you have the update
16:31:06 MattJ reads Kev's changes to recall
16:31:10 linuxwolf s/with as/with it as/
16:31:12 stpeter in time for next week's meeting I hope to review XEP-0065 one more time and perhaps request a vote on the revisions
16:31:22 Kev stpeter: Ok, great.
16:31:34 stpeter (trying to finish off the file transfer stuff)
16:31:34 linuxwolf ooo…I'm just about down with a first draft BCP on resource locking
16:31:36 linuxwolf (finally)
16:31:41 Kev Great.
16:31:48 MattJ 65? I need to update my implementation for that
16:31:50 Kev So, we're done with this, I think.
16:31:52 Kev !agendaup
16:31:53 Kanchil+ Kev: 8) Date of next meeting
16:32:01 Kev Next Wednesday 1600 GMT?
16:32:06 MattJ Kev, the lacking thing in MAM/forwarding is specifying an archive-unique id for the message
16:32:07 Fritzy I'm good with that. +1
16:32:15 MattJ +1 for next week
16:32:15 linuxwolf sure
16:32:24 Kev MattJ: I thought that'd go in MAM, but it can go in forwarding I guess. That makes sense.
16:32:39 stpeter MattJ: please have a look at http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0065-1.8.html and http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0065/diff/1.7/vs/1.8rc3 :)
16:32:49 MattJ stpeter, thanks
16:33:01 MattJ I also wanted to implement the Jingle IBB stuff at the same time
16:33:11 MattJ Currently Verse only does Jingle+proxy65
16:33:14 Kev Ok.
16:33:16 Kev !agendaup
16:33:16 Kanchil+ Kev: 9) Any other business
16:33:18 Kev Anything else?
16:33:21 MattJ Nay
16:33:28 Fritzy 0
16:33:30 linuxwolf world peace?
16:33:37 Kev linuxwolf: Thanks for volunteering.
16:33:40 Fritzy whirled peas
16:33:50 linuxwolf I'd just nuke'em all
16:33:51 ralphm Fritzy: peashake?
16:33:59 stpeter calendar updated
16:33:59 Kev Ok, then I guess we're done.
16:34:00 linuxwolf humus?
16:34:02 Kev stpeter: Thanks.
16:34:03 MattJ Thanks stpeter
16:34:06 Kev I'll do minutes tomorrowish.
16:34:10 Kev I think we're done then
16:34:10 Fritzy rad
16:34:13 Kev Thanks all
16:34:14 Fritzy thanks
16:34:16 Kev bangs the gavel
16:34:16 linuxwolf waits fwding
16:34:19 stpeter has had no time to work on an April 1 spec, maybe next year...
16:34:21 Kev !agendaup -10
16:34:21 Kanchil+ Kev: -1) Fini.
16:34:47 MattJ Kev, FTR I'm happy with the decision on sensor-over-XMPP, but I'll look at the Jingle stuff later
16:34:48 linuxwolf adios all
16:35:01 Kev MattJ: Ok, thanks.
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16:35:35 stpeter likes Kev's 30-minute meeting philosophy
16:35:51 MattJ :)
16:36:37 Kev has left
16:39:47 stpeter oh yay, another round of AUTH48 review just arrived in my inbox
16:40:17 stpeter http://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc6121-diff.html in case you're curious :)
16:48:21 dwd How long has your 48 hours been so far?
16:52:01 stpeter about 47 so far
16:52:03 stpeter er
16:52:03 stpeter no
16:52:22 stpeter 23
16:52:31 stpeter I try to be quick
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