XMPP Council - 2011-04-27

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14:33:52 stpeter good morning, afternoon, or evening as the case may be
14:34:41 Kev Afternoon Peter.
14:36:37 MattJ Afternoon
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14:55:32 Kev !agendaclear
14:55:32 Kanchil+ Kev: Done.
14:55:45 Kev !agendaappend Vote on advancing XEP-0261 (Jingle In-Band Bytestreams Transport Method) to Draft http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-March/024267.html
14:55:45 Kanchil+ Kev: Done.
14:55:56 Kev !agendaappend Update XEP-0178 (Best Practices for Use of SASL EXTERNAL with Certificates) with the interim version 1.1rc5: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0178-1.1.html http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0178/diff/1.0/vs/1.1rc5
14:55:57 Kanchil+ Kev: Done.
14:56:06 Kev !agendaappend Publish http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sensors.html as a XEP?
14:56:06 Kanchil+ Kev: Done.
14:56:15 Kev !agendaappend Publish http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/coin.html as a XEP?
14:56:15 Kanchil+ Kev: Done.
14:56:24 Kev !agendaappend Publish http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/json.html as a XEP?
14:56:24 Kanchil+ Kev: Done.
14:56:29 Kev !agenda
14:56:29 Kanchil+ Kev: 1) Roll call 2) Agenda bashing 3) Vote on advancing XEP-0261 (Jingle In-Band Bytestreams Transport Method) to Draft http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-March/024267.html 4) Update XEP-0178 (Best Practices for Use of SASL EXTERNAL with Certificates) with the interim version 1.1rc5: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0178-1.1.html http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0178/diff/1.0/vs/1.1rc5 5) Publish http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sensors.html as a XEP? 6) Publish http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/coin.html as a XEP? 7) Publish http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/json.html as a XEP? 8) Date of next meeting 9) Any other business Fini
14:56:38 Kev !agendaup 0
14:56:38 Kanchil+ Kev: Command 'agendaup' failed: bot/scripts/agenda.lua:41: attempt to perform arithmetic on field '?' (a nil value)
14:56:44 Kev !agendaup -10
14:56:44 Kanchil+ Kev: Command 'agendaup' failed: bot/scripts/agenda.lua:41: attempt to perform arithmetic on field '?' (a nil value)
14:56:50 Kev Hrmph.
14:56:52 Kev Silly Lua.
14:56:58 Kev !agendaup
14:56:58 Kanchil+ Kev: Command 'agendaup' failed: bot/scripts/agenda.lua:41: attempt to perform arithmetic on field '?' (a nil value)
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14:59:34 linuxwolf /whew
14:59:51 Fritzy I apologize for my absence last week.
15:01:17 stpeter :)
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15:01:27 Kev Right, I guess we should think about starting.
15:01:36 linuxwolf is thinking
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15:02:22 Kanchil+ Kev: Done.
15:02:22 Kanchil+ Kev: Done.
15:02:22 Kanchil+ Kev: 1) Roll call 2) Agenda bashing 3) Vote on advancing XEP-0261 (Jingle In-Band Bytestreams Transport 4) Update XEP-0178 (Best Practices for Use of SASL EXTERNAL with 5) Publish http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sensors.html as a XEP? 6) Publish http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/coin.html as a XEP? 7) Publish http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/json.html as a XEP? 8) Publish http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/coin.html as a XEP? 9) Publish http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/json.html as a XEP? 10) Date of next meeting 11) Any other business Fini
15:02:22 Kanchil+ Kev: 0) Fini.
15:02:22 Kanchil+ Kev: -10) Fini.
15:02:22 Kanchil+ Kev: -9) Fini.
15:02:27 Kev Yay, fixed
15:02:31 Kev !agendaup 9
15:02:31 Kanchil+ Kev: 0) Fini.
15:02:36 Kev Let's start!
15:02:40 Kev I don't see Ralph online
15:02:42 Kev !agendaup
15:02:43 Kanchil+ Kev: 1) Roll call
15:02:43 Fritzy Yay Lua!
15:02:48 linuxwolf presente
15:02:51 Fritzy here
15:03:02 stpeter increases the window size
15:03:33 stpeter ack, no sign of Ralph
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15:03:58 Kev MattJ: There?
15:04:03 MattJ Present
15:04:07 linuxwolf yay
15:04:07 Kev !agendaup
15:04:07 Kanchil+ Kev: 2) Agenda bashing
15:04:12 Fritzy whoah, lag
15:04:31 Fritzy None
15:04:33 MattJ No bashing
15:04:37 MattJ (yet)
15:04:42 stpeter heh
15:04:47 stpeter I don't think I have any bashing
15:04:54 linuxwolf nay
15:04:55 Kev Good enough
15:04:59 Kev !agendaup
15:04:59 Kanchil+ Kev: 3) Vote on advancing XEP-0261 (Jingle In-Band Bytestreams Transport
15:05:08 linuxwolf I will vote onlist
15:05:14 Kev It's not clear that we've had *any* feedback on the last call.
15:05:21 Kev +to me
15:05:22 MattJ No, I didn't see any
15:05:34 MattJ Plus I wanted to implement this myself, but haven't yet :)
15:05:34 Fritzy I'll vote on list
15:05:37 Kev Which vaguely implies that no-one thinks it's needed to fill gaps etc.
15:05:47 Kev I can't believe this is true.
15:06:06 MattJ Me neither, I think it's just a case that implementations aren't ready enough yet
15:06:15 linuxwolf nods
15:06:29 linuxwolf I do hear desire for it…might just be too new still?
15:06:55 linuxwolf /shrug
15:06:55 stpeter as I recall there might be implementations in Pidgin and Psi
15:07:01 Fritzy oh really
15:07:04 Kev Oh.
15:07:08 stpeter not sure if those are released
15:07:17 Kev I didn't know it was in Psi.
15:07:28 MattJ There might be an implementation in Gajim, but I'm not 100% sure
15:07:30 remko IBB is, not jingle
15:07:56 remko the spec is fairly trivial to be fair ;-)
15:07:57 stpeter well, someone poked me on-list about a Psi plugin or patch for Jingle file transfer
15:08:13 stpeter he wanted to know when the specs would be done :)
15:08:22 stpeter anyway we can round up the implementers
15:08:26 remko anyway, there's a typo in it, but i think it has been caught before :)
15:08:29 Fritzy perhaps we should contact the authors and extend last call?
15:08:37 Kev It'd be good to have *some* last call feedback before voting on this.
15:08:46 remko i implemented part of it, but the summer will bring more :)
15:08:48 Kev Fritzy: Right.
15:08:48 stpeter we need to decide if we are going to require implementations, and implementation feedback, before advancing things to Draft
15:09:17 Kev stpeter: Given that people have implemented this, it'd be good for them to speak up.
15:09:18 MattJ I didn't know that was up for decision :)
15:09:39 remko stpeter: did you have the invalid xml typo in example 1 already?
15:09:40 stpeter MattJ: it seems to be an implicit criterion here
15:10:12 MattJ stpeter, it begs the question of the purpose of last call if we don't really need any feedback
15:10:19 remko is there a reason why this xep is in last call btw?
15:10:26 stpeter hmph I thought I fixed that
15:10:35 remko shouldn't it be in last call together with all other jingle FT specs?
15:10:43 stpeter remko: because we're trying to get the whole jingle file transfer suite to Draft
15:10:46 Kev stpeter: It's not that it's required to have implementations - it's that Last Call gave absolutely no feedback.
15:10:55 stpeter per http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-roadmap/
15:11:02 remko and given that this xep only adds some jingle sprinkles on top of an existing spec, i personally would suggest waiting for implementation feedback :)
15:11:06 stpeter and doing them all at the same time would have been too much for people to review
15:11:16 stpeter remko: chicken and egg
15:11:25 stpeter "oh I can't implement that, it's only experimental"
15:11:49 stpeter however
15:11:49 remko stpeter: right, makes sense. But the state of the ohter xeps is not up to date, which means nobody will implement this or be able to give feedback without being consistent with each other at least.
15:11:51 stpeter I'm happy to wait
15:11:52 Kev I'd like to extend the last call, anyway
15:11:58 stpeter I mean, it's not like there is a huge hurry
15:12:04 stpeter XMPP is dying anyway :)
15:12:04 MattJ So let's update XEP-0001 for Final as the only state :)
15:12:09 linuxwolf Kev: +1 to that
15:12:17 MattJ +1 to an extension... 2 weeks?
15:12:17 linuxwolf heh
15:12:18 Fritzy >_<
15:12:28 Kev MattJ: Seems reasonable to me.
15:12:33 stpeter I can reach out to various people who have implemented this or have been thinking about it
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15:12:42 MattJ stpeter, thanks, that would help
15:12:43 Kev stpeter: That would be good, please.
15:12:43 stpeter same with the other jingle ft specs
15:12:50 linuxwolf /nod
15:13:01 Kev Ok, moving on then.
15:13:02 remko stpeter: i looked at them, i can give you feedback too ;-)
15:13:04 Kev !agendaup
15:13:04 Kanchil+ Kev: 4) Update XEP-0178 (Best Practices for Use of SASL EXTERNAL with
15:13:26 MattJ with <it's a mystery>? :)
15:13:31 Kev So broken :(
15:13:36 Kev See the agenda sent to the mailing list :)
15:13:52 linuxwolf Certificates) with the interim version 1.1rc
15:13:58 linuxwolf 5
15:14:00 linuxwolf (-:
15:14:05 Kev I'm voting onlist on this anyway.
15:14:09 linuxwolf ditto
15:14:11 MattJ This, as dialback, is in my queue for thorough review
15:14:13 Fritzy I need to take a look
15:14:21 MattJ Dialback I'm halfway through, but not completed yet
15:14:34 MattJ I forgot how long it was :)
15:14:42 Kev Ok. Votes onlist in the next couple of weeks then.
15:14:44 Kev !agendaup
15:14:44 Kanchil+ Kev: 5) Publish http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sensors.html as a XEP?
15:15:10 Kev Fritzy: As I recall, you were going to post your objections to-list for the authors to address, and I don't *remember* seeing that.
15:15:11 MattJ That's a very good question
15:15:13 stpeter I think the Council needs to re-review XEP-0220, given the recent discussions and the fact that one of the co-authors said my handling of it was "ridiculous"
15:15:33 Fritzy Kev: You're right.
15:15:34 stpeter so I would propose a re-vote on the latest version (0.9)
15:15:43 Kev stpeter: OK.
15:16:11 MattJ If we're going for a re-vote, Kev/stpeter please put me down as -1 on the last vote rather than DNV :)
15:16:24 linuxwolf (-:
15:16:27 MattJ Because I do think it needs further review
15:16:45 MattJ Anyway, sensors...
15:16:49 linuxwolf ugh
15:16:52 Fritzy seems like a suggested practices XEP to me except for the parts that aren't. I'm -1, and I'll post about it on the list (I failed to last time)
15:16:53 Kev So I'm not blocking sensors, I think.
15:17:00 Kev Ok.
15:17:10 linuxwolf good, I can be −0 (-:
15:17:15 MattJ I never thought I'd see a non-humorous XEP with a section titled "Transducer values"
15:17:24 Kev Please remember that the deal is that if you're -1 you have to post with justifications and potential remedies within a fortnight of doing so.
15:17:33 linuxwolf MattJ: At least it doesn't have "timey-wimey bits"
15:17:44 Fritzy Kev: right
15:17:59 Kev !agendaup
15:17:59 Kanchil+ Kev: 6) Publish http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/coin.html as a XEP?
15:18:04 Fritzy or a "bugger' log level
15:18:35 Kev I'm similarly not blocking this, although there seems to be list discussion as to whether it's the right aproach, it seems to be *an* approach that could be not broken.
15:18:37 MattJ +1 to sensors, +1 to coin
15:19:11 MattJ Yep, and I'm glad to see the discussion, but I see no reason this can't be an accepted XEP
15:19:13 linuxwolf not blocking either
15:19:20 MattJ Considering the number of DMUC XEPs we have :)
15:19:26 linuxwolf haha
15:19:37 Fritzy +1
15:19:44 linuxwolf ok, +1 too
15:19:48 Kev I largely think of Experimental as being "Not obviously the wrong approach"
15:20:02 Kev Which brings us on to...
15:20:03 Kev !agendaup
15:20:03 Kanchil+ Kev: 7) Publish http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/json.html as a XEP?
15:20:07 MattJ :D
15:20:11 linuxwolf -1
15:20:13 MattJ -1
15:20:17 linuxwolf and I'll post some reasons why
15:20:25 linuxwolf like "does not meet the first requirement"
15:20:29 MattJ Can I re-post Dave's?
15:20:47 linuxwolf MattJ: why not (-:
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15:21:13 linuxwolf this looks like it was taken directly from an XML.com article I read awhile back
15:21:33 MattJ linuxwolf, people read xml.com?
15:21:34 linuxwolf which noted the deficiencies of this encoding
15:21:43 Kev I'm -1 as well, although I'll let linuxwolf post to the list first and add to it if I have anything else on top.
15:21:47 linuxwolf MattJ: occasionally, for the lulz (-:
15:21:55 stpeter MattJ: it's on my list to harmonize those DMUC things, but I won't get to it until June at this rate (first I need to do i18n stuff and that's taking me a while...)
15:21:57 MattJ linuxwolf, I thought it died a decade ago :)
15:22:11 linuxwolf MattJ: just before XMPP died (-:
15:22:21 MattJ stpeter, right, but again it needs to see implementation I think
15:22:42 linuxwolf stpeter: I think we should concentrate on i18n more than DMUC...personally
15:22:58 Fritzy I'm 0
15:23:05 Kev !agendaup
15:23:05 Kanchil+ Kev: 8) Publish http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/coin.html as a XEP?
15:23:14 Kev !agendaup
15:23:14 Kanchil+ Kev: 9) Publish http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/json.html as a XEP?
15:23:16 Kev !agendaup
15:23:16 Kanchil+ Kev: 10) Date of next meeting
15:23:18 Kev There we go.
15:23:35 MattJ Next week is fine I think
15:23:38 Kev Next Wed, same bat time, same bat channel?
15:23:42 linuxwolf should be fine for me, also
15:23:42 Fritzy sure
15:23:43 Kev Peter's not here then, hink.
15:24:00 linuxwolf correct
15:24:08 linuxwolf he'll be on a plane back from Amsterdam (-:
15:24:11 stpeter linuxwolf: agreed on DMUC
15:24:20 stpeter right, I won't be available next Wed
15:24:27 stpeter but you guys can handle things :)
15:24:33 Kev Righty ho.
15:24:35 Kev !agendaup
15:24:35 Kanchil+ Kev: 11) Any other business
15:24:51 MattJ I was going to mention dialback, but I'll do so on-list
15:25:05 MattJ Anyway, fippo isn't here for me to stand behind
15:25:11 stpeter as I said, I think the Council needs to re-vote on 220 0.9
15:25:13 linuxwolf yeah, dialback … I need to read it again, and I'm going to pester some locals to read it with me
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15:25:31 stpeter perhaps it is indeed ridiculous
15:25:40 MattJ It doesn't seem to be so far :)
15:25:46 stpeter but 0.8 really bothered me because it was so confusing
15:26:03 linuxwolf I would rather the author not be confused by their own spec
15:26:07 linuxwolf (-:
15:26:14 MattJ I think the improvements are good overall
15:26:23 stpeter we needed to go in one direction or another, and perhaps fippo didn't like the direction I took
15:26:26 Kev So we've got got anything for AOB?
15:26:32 stpeter his statements were a bit cryptic to me
15:26:43 Kev Beyond adding 220 for next week, which is in my TODO.
15:26:47 stpeter none here
15:26:54 MattJ stpeter, he's given me similar cryptic statements this morning that I need to decipher :)
15:26:55 linuxwolf Kev: it doesn't sound like it…but we do have an agenda item for next week (-: (XEP-0220)
15:27:11 linuxwolf gah…meatspace lag
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15:27:24 stpeter per remko's comments, I think it might be useful to update XEP-0234 before pushing forward with the rest of the Jingle FT suite
15:27:48 Kev Righty ho. Are we dones then?
15:27:52 linuxwolf (T −0:02)
15:27:55 stpeter remko and I were just chatting via PM, and he noted that 234 is wildly out of sync with 260/261
15:28:12 linuxwolf hrm
15:28:13 stpeter I have 234 printed and will review it on the plane or in an airport sometime in the next week
15:28:32 linuxwolf /nod
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15:28:33 stpeter so we could do 260, 261, and 234 together
15:28:36 stpeter that makes sense to me
15:28:43 stpeter not in a huge hurry :)
15:28:54 MattJ :)
15:28:58 linuxwolf sounds good to me
15:29:01 Kev I think that's a "we're done".
15:29:02 Kev So
15:29:04 stpeter yep
15:29:05 linuxwolf "are we done yet?"
15:29:06 Kev bangs the gavel
15:29:06 stpeter done
15:29:08 Kev Thanks all.
15:29:09 linuxwolf (-:
15:29:13 linuxwolf adios
15:29:17 Kev I'll sort out minutes tomorrow or so.
15:29:19 linuxwolf rushes to next meeting
15:29:24 stpeter "are we *almost* done yet"? ;-)
15:29:24 MattJ I'm still trying to figure out what "meatspace lag" entails
15:29:26 linuxwolf I'll get comments about json by Friday
15:29:32 stpeter MattJ: IRL interrupt?
15:29:39 MattJ Possibly :)
15:29:45 stpeter that's my interpretation
15:29:45 stpeter OK
15:29:46 linuxwolf MattJ: "engineer needs coffee badly"
15:29:49 MattJ Heh
15:29:54 linuxwolf and some interuptions
15:30:01 stpeter I need to pack for my trip
15:30:04 linuxwolf anyway…I'm late! (-:
15:30:07 stpeter I'll be in and out, but mostly out
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15:30:44 Fritzy thanks guys
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15:32:29 stpeter I still need to read all the position papers for http://www.w3.org/2011/track-privacy/ -- I suppose I'll be doing that on the plane today :)
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